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Old 2010-06-27, 14:31   Link #11821
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
So, now that that's mostly settled, do you think this fella is alive? Dead? Jessica? Shannon? Gohda? Or is he a dance instructor at the YMCA who has no relevance to the story?

Oliver - It's better for us that this other Battler is dead, but how would Beatrice know about some dead child? I for one can not dismiss it as a mere trick used by the author, it has to have some significance. I found Jessica and Genji's omission in episode 6 a bit suspicious, and this may be the answer I am searching for.
Which is why I believe there has to be some clever wordplay or twisted logic that prevents the Other Battler from ever having existed. Him existing even for a moment and not playing any role in the narrative would be very nonsensical.

But if "The Other Battler" was indeed born, but died immediately, Beatrice would know, if she knows of the baby swapping incident, because the description of this incident implies that the other baby, if one was born, actually died.

...wait a moment.

Quote:
;「そして明日夢さんは戦人くんを出産したわ。@だけれど私は流産したの。@思ったことがあるわ。 @もし流産したのが明日夢さんで、出産したのが私だったなら。@留弗夫さんは婚約を解消して、私と結婚 してくれたかしら?@ でも私は子どもを産めなかった。@だから明日夢さんが死ぬまで。@そして縁寿を 懐妊するまで、私は明日夢さんを呪ったわ、嫉妬したわ。」
`"Then, Asumu-san gave birth to Battler-kun.`@` ...But I had a miscarriage.`@` .........There's something I've thought about.`@` What if Asumu-san had been the one to have a miscarriage, and I had been the one to give birth?`@` ......Would Rudolf-san have broken off his engagement and married me?`@` ......But I couldn't give birth to a child.`@` So until Asumu-san died, `@`and until I got pregnant with Ange, I cursed Asumu-san, and was jealous of her."`
Miscarriage in English is the spontaneous end of pregnancy at a stage where the fetus is incapable of surviving, but as medicine evolves, earlier and earlier births can be saved and developed into viable babies. Something that is called "miscarriage" in English is probably still a birth if the fetus somehow survives.

But what about Japanese?
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:36   Link #11822
Sentou
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I don't know. Listen, it's fine to want the second Battler dead so as to not have him or her endanger the story, but a miscarriage? I mean, come now. This is just becoming a bit nitpicky. Being born dead seems a bit silly.

I suppose you are operating on the simultaneous pregnancy theory, in which Kyrie's baby "died" and Asumu's baby did not? (Except as we know that would be the opposite way around?)

Why don't we just assume, if we want to assume that the baby is dead, that the baby was born from Asumu, and then died a few minutes later due to complications? That's a perfectly valid way of achieving the same thing, without having to equivocate the hell out of the text.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:37   Link #11823
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In EP6 and in the anime she says "Stillbirth" (shizan), and I think that's the correct term.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:38   Link #11824
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There is a scene in episode 3 where she talks about that as well though (To Leviathan) so it's not as if this idea of Asumu having a stillborn baby first came up in episode 6.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:40   Link #11825
Sentou
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T'would also explain why two babies are named Battler.

Asumu's baby is to be known as Battler, it ends up being dead, so Rudolf names the other one Battler.


.....Dude's a bit of a jerk.

Edit: So, if the name exists, it means the person is alive?
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:41   Link #11826
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
I don't know. Listen, it's fine to want the second Battler dead so as to not have him or her endanger the story, but a miscarriage? I mean, come now. This is just becoming a bit nitpicky. Being born dead seems a bit silly.
No, I'm wondering if it's possible to be born without being born in this manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
Why don't we just assume, if we want to assume that the baby is dead, that the baby was born from Asumu, and then died a few minutes later due to complications? That's a perfectly valid way of achieving the same thing, without having to equivocate the hell out of the text.
We have no read saying that the Other Battler is dead. This is the only case of two people possibly being referred to in red by the same name that remains, as both the Zombie Kanon and Phantom Kinzo are much easier solved by having people lie about them. It's not the Other Battler's body that I have anything against, it's the name.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:43   Link #11827
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
It does the damage by making it ambiguous whether any red that mentions Battler refer to This Battler or Other Battler -- including, in particular "Battler is not the culprit, Battler did not kill anyone", but also many other, more particular and less far-reaching reds.
Virgilia is the one who says those particular reds, and she uses "Battler-kun", which is how she refers to Our Battler.

Frankly, if you want my opinion, I don't think she COULD say "Ushiromiya Battler is not the culprit".

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So, if the name exists, it means the person is alive?
I don't think Ryukishi would have brought up the possibility without it being resolved in some way.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:43   Link #11828
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No, I'm wondering if it's possible to be born without being born in this manner.
Oh no... the Macbeth theory!
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:46   Link #11829
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Oh no... the Macbeth theory!
Actually, yes. Not like there isn't a literary precedent -- Shakespeare wouldn't even be the first or the last to pull something like this.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:48   Link #11830
Sentou
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Oh no... the Macbeth theory!
Episode 8: The Penultimate finale for the second to last time of the Golden Witch

Bernkaselerinedelta: NO BATTLER OF WOMEN BORN CAN DEFEAT ME!

Battler: I AM NOT BORN OF WOMEN! I WAS FROM MY MOTHER'S WOMB, UNTIMELY RIPPED!

Well, it seems in regards to the VN, the clear answer is that the other Battler is dead. And yet, that hasn't been said in red.

I think episode 7 shall shed the light on this mystery, right now we're at an impasse of knowing that a Battler was born from Asumu, but not quite knowing the implications of that.
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:49   Link #11831
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Yeah it's been brought up already in the past. But with all due respect to Shakespeare and his wonderful works that explanation is lame. Maybe it worked four hundred years ago, but today is a no no.

Plus, Battler is not asumu's son shouldn't leave that doubt...
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Old 2010-06-27, 14:53   Link #11832
Oliver
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Edit: So, if the name exists, it means the person is alive?
It means that we don't know if the person is dead, alive but somewhere else entirely, or alive and hiding in between the dwellers of Rokkenjima, even unaware of the fact that "Battler" is their proper name. This is still enough for any use of "Battler" in red to create ambiguity.

From a literary point of view, it's too late in the story for a Chekov's gun -- that "Other Battler" has to either fire right now and Be Important, or just be a trick to confuse us (and Our Battler) for the next few years that Beatrice knowingly uses as her last serious weapon.

I vote for the second, since the Other Battler never actually resolves to anything important before the story ends.

Unless Beatrice has cooked up something clever in which she is the Other Battler, so that lets her somehow bypass "I am not you." and be on the island physically to kill Our Battler in the end.
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Old 2010-06-27, 15:02   Link #11833
Sentou
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Well, as I said before, Piece Beato could very well be the other Battler. It would explain why she knew how to snare him in the manner she did, but then again, in her end of episode 4 red text, she did say "You are the only one alive", thus using the second person and kinda not having any room to sneaky by with.

And as for the story, well, right now there are 5 characters who we need to be clarified about above all else.

Rudolf and Kyrie are two, Shannon, Kanon, and Jessica would be three. All five of these characters have things about them that in light of recent revelations would be nice to be focused on.

The second Battler theory helps solve for Rudolf and Kyrie in a manner, and also helps explain the truly headaching ordeal that is Shannon, Jessica, and Kanon.

But these things are issues we'll continue to worry about, because we don't have all the pieces to the puzzle.
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Old 2010-06-27, 15:12   Link #11834
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Sentou View Post
Well, as I said before, Piece Beato could very well be the other Battler. It would explain why she knew how to snare him in the manner she did, but then again, in her end of episode 4 red text, she did say "You are the only one alive", thus using the second person and kinda not having any room to sneaky by with.
Actually, she sort of does have a bit of wiggle room. Very shaky, and I can't say I'm particularly serious with this, but...

右代宮戦人。@今から私が、あなたを殺します。
Ushiromiya Battler. I will now...kill you.


It is possible that at this moment, Our Battler is already dead! Beatrice is referring to the Other Battler, herself, and describing her plan to commit suicide!
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Old 2010-06-27, 15:18   Link #11835
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On the miscarriage/stillbirth thing. As Jan-Poo said, the anime changed "miscarriage" to "stillbirth" and ep6 reiterated it.

It was not a translation error, ep3 unambiguously said "miscarriage."

However, it seems that this was the author's mistake. It is very clear that Kyrie actually gave birth, but believes that her baby was born dead.
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Old 2010-06-27, 15:24   Link #11836
Kaisos Erranon
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However, it seems that this was the author's mistake. It is very clear that Kyrie actually gave birth, but believes that her baby was born dead.
Rudolf may have switched the babies (in order to make Kyrie's biological son his heir), having then bribed the hospital staff into informing Kyrie that her child was dead...

The only question, then, is what he did with Asumu's baby.
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Old 2010-06-27, 15:34   Link #11837
delita-umw-
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Sent the baby to Natsuhi to drop off a cliff? It'd be a good way of getting rid of Battler 2.0 if we can trust Natsuhi's push off the side story?
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Old 2010-06-27, 15:36   Link #11838
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Rudolf may have switched the babies (in order to make Kyrie's biological son his heir), having then bribed the hospital staff into informing Kyrie that her child was dead...

The only question, then, is what he did with Asumu's baby.
Gave it to Kinzo for a dark ritual.

Seriously though, there's a few problems with Rudolf switching babies...
  1. Rudolf's status is such that illegitimate children are not much of a problem, breaking off an engagement is not much of a problem, getting divorced is. If Kyrie and Asumu got pregnant more or less simultaneously, which is evidenced by them giving birth simultaneously, did he really complete the marriage to Asumu in secret, before he found out that Kyrie is pregnant with his child? Really?
  2. Just which of them did he love more anyway? Were there any overriding concerns to make him marry Asumu rather than Kyrie if the difference between them learning of their pregnancies is merely days and the pregnancies are at the same stage?
Just what do we know about Asumu's family anyway? We know Kyrie is a Sumadera exile, and we actually get told quite a bit about the Sumadera, but what about Asumu?
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Old 2010-06-27, 15:37   Link #11839
Oliver
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Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Sent the baby to Natsuhi to drop off a cliff? It'd be a good way of getting rid of Battler 2.0 if we can trust Natsuhi's push off the side story?
Can't, unless he is capable of sending it about a year back in time. That's the whole problem with Natsuhi's extra baby really -- timing issues.
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Old 2010-06-27, 15:54   Link #11840
delita-umw-
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Curse you timing issues! First you deny me my M16/Philipine sniper rifle and now Natsuhi's extra baby!? CURSE THEE!!

Question though, have we ever found out who is older between Jessica and Battler? I just checked a umineko wiki and it says Battler is a year older, but I don't trust it and from my vague novel knowledge I know they're roughly the same age but if Battler is older then I can think of one way timing issues wouldn't be so bad. What if: we can trust Natsuhi's narrative but only to a certain extent. For example, she really did receive a child from Rudolph but not in the timing that she describes. Furthermore the real reason she killed the child was because she found out she was pregnant with Jessica. Other Battler problem solved?
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