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Old 2010-06-27, 17:11   Link #11861
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Really? It works okay for me... try looking at the history you should see that I did some changes...

I'm actually doing a lot of clean up since I'm at it... it's incredible how many no-lifers find amusing to insert their pet theories into a wiki article. Luckily most of those are removed by other people.
The Umineko wikia (http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Battler_Ushiromiya) still says 19. I saw your change for the wikipedia.org entry though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I have absolutely no knowledge of this... does it come from some extra TIP?
That TIPS is from EP4's TIPS, "Regarding Creators" The English version reads, at the end:

"Voyagers are frightened that the ends of their own journeys mean becoming a Creator. As to why they would be frightened of advancing to become a higher-order being, none can understand except they themselves."
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Old 2010-06-27, 17:14   Link #11862
Jan-Poo
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Ah all right I must have missed that.

And I'm just adjusting the wiki, not the wikia, sorry. I don't really like the wikia network to be honest...
I don't quite like the whole idea of working for free for people that make a lot of money with overly disturbing ads
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Old 2010-06-27, 17:22   Link #11863
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Ah all right I must have missed that.

And I'm just adjusting the wiki, not the wikia, sorry. I don't really like the wikia network to be honest...
I don't quite like the whole idea of working for free for people that make a lot of money with overly disturbing ads
Yah.. Wikia is a minefield of wonderful information:
"In Dawn, it is revealed that Battler was born from his "step-mother" Kyrie but somehow he was given to Asumu."

Errr....

Or how about Erika:

"After the true nature of her fate is brought to light (she did wash up onto Rokkenjima, but she was dead, having drowned in the ocean), she fades from existence and is ultimately removed from the story."

WTF?! Maybe that's the source of mis-information. 8)
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Old 2010-06-27, 17:30   Link #11864
Jan-Poo
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Sadly the same things were reported on the wiki... for a certain time...

Quote:
Zepar (ゼパル Zeparu?)
The 16th highest ranking earl of hell, named after the demon of the same name. Despite having the appearance of a girl with long, light-blue hair and a darkly-colored dress, Zepar is suggested to be male due to his use of a masculine speech pattern, and the fact that he is of the opposite gender of his equally feminine twin Furfur. He appears alongside Furfur when summoned by those who seek romance, and has the power to seduce humans. He can also grant unlimited defensive power and even brief immortality to those who contract them.
Furfur (フルフル Furufuru?)
The 34th highest ranking earl of hell, named after the demon of the same name, and Zepar's twin. Given the circumstances of the twins' gender, Furfur is suggested to be female since it is stated in the TIPS that she is of the opposite gender of the ambiguously male Zepar. She has mid-length, red hair and wears a brightly-colored dress. She always appears in unison with Zepar when summoned, and has the power to cultivate emotions. She can also grant an inexhaustible offensive power to those who contract them.
What do you guy think about this?
It's true that Zepar is the one who uses "boku", I don't remember Furfur using it, but she does use it when they both talk at the same time. Plus "boku" while generally it's used by males it's not as manly as "ore" and sometimes even tomboyish girls are seen using it in anime and manga.
Can we really say that as a matter of fact Zepar is the male and Furfur is the female? Or that it's even suggested it's so?
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Old 2010-06-27, 17:34   Link #11865
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
P.S. I still think there should be a way to deny the Other Battler completely, as it's the consequences of one existing that are the problem, not Jessica being Rudolf's daughter.
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Abstract.

Can the Knox rules forbid the detective from fabricating hints to satisfy Knox 8th?

EDIT: And not so abstract. In Ep5, the following is said when Erika is introduced:

Bernkastel: "I proclaim that Furudo Erika is the detective. The detective is not the culprit. No proof is needed to show this."
Lambda: "There was an exception clause in the original, but for this game the detective isn't the culprit has been proclaimed in red, so you don't need to consider the exception."

Now wait a minute.
  1. I have so far failed to find a variant of Knox rules which would provide any exception to Knox 7th. What exception clause are they talking about?
  2. Do they really mean to say that Knox 7th applies to this game only? Really?...

EDIT EDIT: Aha! Found the true original.



I wonder, did anything of the sort happen in Ep1-4?... That is, did anyone dress up as Battler?
I just thought of something. if you assume both Asumu and Kyrie had still borns (bit unlikely, but bear with me) and you have no problem with Battler not being qualified to be Beato's opponent there is a way for that name to not be exclusive.

Basically The "Battler" we know had a different name before he "reentered" the Ushiromiya register therefore his name is not exclusive.

You could make him into a culprit this way. I'd like to say though he does have a chance to be "the culprit" behind the fake first twilights and not be involved in killing anyone. You could also say that if he's the culprit the only people giving him an alibi are the cousins and for them to murder people in the first twilight they have to slip by Battler anyway so it's not that out there for him to do the same.
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Old 2010-06-27, 17:46   Link #11866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It's true that Zepar is the one who uses "boku", I don't remember Furfur using it, but she does use it when they both talk at the same time. Plus "boku" while generally it's used by males it's not as manly as "ore" and sometimes even tomboyish girls are seen using it in anime and manga.
Can we really say that as a matter of fact Zepar is the male and Furfur is the female? Or that it's even suggested it's so?
I wouldn't bring it up unless you could bring up the theory that Furfur== 34 == Sayo and Zepar == 16 == Yoshiya. Which, I don't think would be appropriate for wikipedia. Wikia, though... but only in a side paragraph.

I can't remember what Furfur used, but I would say there was absolutely no suggestion whatsoever as to their genders and whoever wants to correct that needs to add a citation.
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Old 2010-06-27, 17:46   Link #11867
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What do you guy think about this?
It's true that Zepar is the one who uses "boku", I don't remember Furfur using it, but she does use it when they both talk at the same time. Plus "boku" while generally it's used by males it's not as manly as "ore" and sometimes even tomboyish girls are seen using it in anime and manga.
Can we really say that as a matter of fact Zepar is the male and Furfur is the female? Or that it's even suggested it's so?
I think it's clearly intended to be as ambiguous as possible. Therefore, I don't think it's ever "safe" to assign which one of them is the male and which one is the female.
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Old 2010-06-27, 18:01   Link #11868
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Basically The "Battler" we know had a different name before he "reentered" the Ushiromiya register therefore his name is not exclusive.
That would create a third Battler, though, wouldn't it?

I'm finding the whole 'sit in a room with cousins and play cards' rather dubious, mind you. You just met people you haven't seen for six years. You're not going to exhaust the stories accumulated in this manner for days. But assume you're tired of talking and need a change of pace.

Then you sit and ...play cards? What? Not go out to ransack the grandfather's library, or show off photos from six years worth, or play a prank on the butler, none of the LOT of interesting things I can think of doing in an old household with decades of accumulated trash in every hole (and don't forget the skeletons in the closets you could search for to shake their hands and say 'hi') - none of these.

You just sit and play cards.

Literary characters can do that, sometimes, if the plot wallops them over the head with a pillow. Real teenagers? I don't think so.
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Old 2010-06-27, 18:06   Link #11869
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What the hell?! XD

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...action=history

How does a bot decides that I'm a vandal? meh...
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Old 2010-06-27, 18:13   Link #11870
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What the hell?! XD

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...action=history

How does a bot decides that I'm a vandal? meh...
Cluebot apparently didn't like your edit because you used the word 'sex' in it. 8) I reported it as a false positive...
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Old 2010-06-27, 18:14   Link #11871
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I was about to change it to the more correct "gender" (although some believe that "gender" is psychological and "sex" is physical), but couldn't because the bot reverted it back. Let's see if I can adjust it now...
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Old 2010-06-27, 18:44   Link #11872
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I was about to change it to the more correct "gender" (although some believe that "gender" is psychological and "sex" is physical), but couldn't because the bot reverted it back. Let's see if I can adjust it now...
That's not really a "some believe" thing. Sex is a biological characteristic and gender is a social construct. So you were right, Wikipedia is just... like that.
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Old 2010-06-27, 19:34   Link #11873
Oliver
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Random.

End of Ep3, Evatrice's puzzle which we have just mentioned yesterday.

Beatrice: "Starting now, I will deny witches in red. I will slice up the game board that she has laid out with her red. ...By doing that, ...I will probably lose my form as a witch as well. ...If you also hear the red truth I will tell, you will understand my true form."

Which means that there exists a red statement or a reasonably short set of red statements that will explain how Nanjo died, and which will also expose who Beatrice is, assuming Evatrice is a distinct culprit not equivalent to Beatrice. Otherwise, Beatrice's statement cannot be true -- it's not red, of course, but let's assume for a moment that it's true anyway.

Using the idea that a time lag exists between the red certifying everyone's death and the moment Nanjo is dead solves the problem by explaining how could someone kill Nanjo -- by dying between killing Nanjo and being declared dead in red together with everyone. However, this gives no leads whatsoever on Beatrice's true form, so if Beatrice's statement to Battler is true, that's probably not it.

Are any other solutions of Evatrice's wall of red possible? Alternatively, if the time lag idea is correct, is there a way it could expose Beatrice anyway?
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Old 2010-06-27, 19:44   Link #11874
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I guess chronotrig would point out that since personalities can be killed then simply Kanon and Shannon dying does not prove that the host body did as well. This of course would have strong implications with Beatrice's true nature.

However Beatrice should have stopped her killing spree since the epitaph was solved.... unless Evatrice is just another fake personality created by Sayo who took over.
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Old 2010-06-27, 20:13   Link #11875
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However Beatrice should have stopped her killing spree since the epitaph was solved.... unless Evatrice is just another fake personality created by Sayo who took over.
I'd have to call a variation of Clarke's Law on that. "Any sufficiently advanced psychosis is indistinguishable from magic." Same as with "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo", actually.

No, it should be something relatively simple, but highly inobvious, like a method to resolve the contradiction so that none of the survivors killed Nanjo directly or indirectly, but somehow they managed to do it anyway.
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Old 2010-06-27, 20:16   Link #11876
Jan-Poo
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That option shouldn't be possible... the red is very clear about that...

Of course one of my earliest theory was that:

The real Nanjo was killed before the start of the game. The Nanjo in Rokkenjima is an impostor.

this however doesn't have any tie with Beatrice. Unless the impostor is Beatrice...
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Old 2010-06-27, 20:30   Link #11877
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That option shouldn't be possible... the red is very clear about that...
If you just accept it's not possible, then it simply isn't a puzzle -- puzzle starts by observing a contradiction. In fact, any engineering invention problem also starts by locating a contradiction, and the solution is in finding some way in which the contradiction doesn't actually stop you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Of course one of my earliest theory was that: The real Nanjo was killed before the start of the game. The Nanjo in Rokkenjima is an impostor.
this however doesn't have any tie with Beatrice. Unless the impostor is Beatrice...
That, actually, sort of works, in a Pony Theory sense, but the practicality of getting disguised as Nanjo is a problem as usual, and more importantly, it doesn't work well for other episodes, does it?

Though, one thing keeps bugging me. In the scene when the gun accidentally discharges, Nanjo is said to be between Jessica and Eva. To actually get a cornea burn, you need to be within 5-7cm from the muzzle.

How is it possible to point a short Winchester in such a way that Jessica can get those and not blow her or Nanjo's head open?...
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-06-27 at 20:39. Reason: silly typo...
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Old 2010-06-27, 21:11   Link #11878
Smeckledorf
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I agree, I think the end of episode 3 was a big hint to Nanjo being an impostor.
Also, third Battler? There are/were two but I don't know about three.
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Old 2010-06-27, 21:31   Link #11879
Jan-Poo
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There's the fact that Battler has never seen Nanjo before. So you don't even need a disguise.

The problem is... why would everyone else lie about Nanjo's identity?

If I am allowed to go on wild speculations... I could imagine the Nanjo everyone saw is just an impostor payed by Natsuhi and Krauss to back up their plan.
Of course you can't deny that a real Nanjo exists and that he was Kinzo's friend and all since it's confirmed by the 1998 perspective. But maybe this Nanjo doctor could only go as far as to keep silent about that, and refused to be directly involved in such a cover up.
For what we know it is possible that no one outside of the "Kinzo is still alive circle" has ever seen Nanjo before 1985. After all Battler doesn't remember him from previous family meetings.
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Old 2010-06-27, 21:34   Link #11880
imaginari
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However Beatrice should have stopped her killing spree since the epitaph was solved.... unless Evatrice is just another fake personality created by Sayo who took over.
It's possible that the killer didn't learn about the epitaph being solved in that episode. Eva and Rosa agreed not to tell anyone, and Rosa died.
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