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Old 2010-06-27, 21:46   Link #11881
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There's the fact that Battler has never seen Nanjo before. So you don't even need a disguise.

The problem is... why would everyone else lie about Nanjo's identity?
True, and worse, the character most people assume is running around disguising is a female. It's marginally plausible to believe some other fat old guy is disguised as Nanjo, but a woman?
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Old 2010-06-27, 22:26   Link #11882
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
That would create a third Battler, though, wouldn't it?
No I don't see why it has to. If he's not the real Battler anyway. It's really just an extension of the antimystery theory I'm working on.
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Old 2010-06-28, 01:20   Link #11883
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By the way... I'm not sure where to put this so I thought I'd just put it in the least-touched thread for now.. but..

I was going over the EP6 end roll ( replicated here: http://umineco.info/?%E7%AC%AC%E5%85...96%87%E7%AB%A0 )

And I noticed besides the victims of the first twilight which includes Battler, Kanon is listed as having died in the 2nd twilight. Both Shannon and Jessica are listed as still alive at the pause of the game... so, if the 2nd twilight is supposed to have been the tearing apart of the two who were close, who is Kanon supposed to be close with?

I wouldn't say Erika as I don't want to killed by the hordes of fangirls she's not listed as either dead or alive... and it can't be Battler as that's exactly what some people would want he's already listed as dead.

Ok, it was a rather irregular game and it was interrupted... but I wonder if there was even a plan for a second victim?
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Old 2010-06-28, 01:30   Link #11884
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There wasn't a second victim in episode 5 so that's at least consistent.

It seems like the people who died in the second twilights mirrors games 1 and 2 though at least for one of the victims. I guess the culprit of the Chiru games had a different interpretation for "tearing apart the two who are close". Or maybe he just didn't want to kill two people for some reason.

This suggests the culprit is following the epitaph begrudgingly and is cutting corners.
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Old 2010-06-28, 01:36   Link #11885
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
And I noticed besides the victims of the first twilight which includes Battler, Kanon is listed as having died in the 2nd twilight. Both Shannon and Jessica are listed as still alive at the pause of the game... so, if the 2nd twilight is supposed to have been the tearing apart of the two who were close, who is Kanon supposed to be close with?

I wouldn't say Erika as I don't want to killed by the hordes of fangirls she's not listed as either dead or alive... and it can't be Battler as that's exactly what some people would want he's already listed as dead.

Ok, it was a rather irregular game and it was interrupted... but I wonder if there was even a plan for a second victim?
If Kanon is a personality of a person then he was torn apart from the person. I would say my personality and I were close.
You are right, Judoh. But the answer is quite obvious, if one person dies and there was a person close to him/her then they would be 'torn apart'.

Anyways, if Nanjo is an impostor it does not mean he has to be Beatrice. I happen to think he was killed rather recently because that means Nanjo's body could be used without it being fake and the impostor could run around killing still.
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Old 2010-06-28, 01:38   Link #11886
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I don't see why we'd even need an impostor when nobody cares about the Doctor anyway. They stow him away on the third floor like he's not even wanted. It's an old theory anyway and it's really not all that necessary even for the Kinzo death faction.

The second twilight for episode 7 is going to be Maria I just know it.
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Old 2010-06-28, 01:43   Link #11887
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We don't need an impostor. We are giving out input on this story and what might possibly be a solution.

Maria has already been killed during a second twilight, I believe. Episode 3 wasn't it? Oh never mind, you are saying it will be a mirror of episode 3.
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Old 2010-06-28, 01:57   Link #11888
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
There wasn't a second victim in episode 5 so that's at least consistent.

It seems like the people who died in the second twilights mirrors games 1 and 2 though at least for one of the victims. I guess the culprit of the Chiru games had a different interpretation for "tearing apart the two who are close". Or maybe he just didn't want to kill two people for some reason.

This suggests the culprit is following the epitaph begrudgingly and is cutting corners.
Or maybe Erika's influence really messed up the flow of the game, whether she's detecting or sawing off body parts. 8)

Well, not that the end roll is part of the in-game explanation but notice that Battler was considered to be 'dead' as part of the end roll... yet we know he was really walking around, setting traps, removing chains... It's not the same as being declared dead in red, but it seems like the Witches' End Roll is really about them being picked to fake their deaths. What happens to them afterwards is not part of the end roll... so their ACTUAL death just sometimes coincides with their fake deaths...

In other words, someone has (maybe yet another separate) plan to 'display' all of the twilights and it seems and this forms the end roll if it successfully occurs. Maybe. Whether people really died before or after the deciding of the twilight is irrelevant to this person/group of people.


Anyways...

Sorry to bring up yet another topic but... I just saw and remembered the ending after the credits roll by in EP6 ????. I think all of us have seen this before, one way or another but... further to our earlier discussion:

"Bernkastel picks up a black piece, the 'Beatrice' piece as it were. Sometimes a King, sometimes a Queen and sometimes a Knight. But only if it was promoted. Until then it is on the level of a Pawn, a worthless piece. Start with the arrangement of the pieces. And then from that point it is the start of the Witches' game.

And so Bernkastel takes the Beato piece... gently raises it... "Starting position. d8 Beatrice."

Umineko no naku koro ni: No one is left alive."

Anyways, doesn't this suggest that 'Beatrice' is a mere pawn, like some of us were thinking? Like more than that she is the scapegoat, and more than that the idea of her is used by people for their own ends, but we were starting to think that the person herself who was connected to Moetrice (Shannon?) is herself a pawn in all the schemes?
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Old 2010-06-28, 02:05   Link #11889
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This is partially the problem with impostor culprit theories. Maria has a friend on the island, a human, who pretends to be Beatrice. Maybe it is not pretending but the person actually thinks the he/she is Beatrice. But there is a person on that island who assumes that identity, at least one. We combine that with Maria usually being one of the later deaths and it points to 'Beatrice' being a killer.
Now, what if the roulette corresponded with whose deaths were faked and someone else is killing the people whose deaths were faked afterward? People are supposed to be revived when the gold is found. So, I am thinking that the culprit is an asshole and 'Beatrice' is innocent. The idea of Beatrice is taking on the identity of that one gang in Higurashi IMO, so meta-Beatrice plays the part.
King, Queen, and Knight... a mastermind, a co-conspirator, and a killer/guardian? That's what I think the terms mean, I am less sure about the Queen part. Pawn seems hard to misinterpret. King might also mean head of the family.

I am confused by what Battler thinks of 'the truth' he knows what is happening but he honors his promise to Beatrice rather than showing the killer for who he/she really is. There is no doubt that there is a killer and the person has murdered a big chunk of Battler's family. Episode 6 looks like a big cover up for the culprit. To me, it just seems like Battler is covering for the culprit, why would he do that?

Last edited by Smeckledorf; 2010-06-28 at 02:20.
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Old 2010-06-28, 02:37   Link #11890
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
King, Queen, and Knight... a mastermind, a co-conspirator, and a killer/guardian? That's what I think the terms mean, I am less sure about the Queen part. Pawn seems hard to misinterpret. King might also mean head of the family.
I know Battler and Maria have been described as the king sometimes as well. Battler as the king of the white side, but king of the black side in EP6. It seems when they're both kings they have little power on their own but instead the whole game revolves around them.

Although in real chess the King can kill if you get too close. I just had an image of Maria biting whoever comes close to her... (like pervert-Battler.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
I am confused by what Battler thinks of 'the truth' he knows what is happening but he honors his promise to Beatrice rather than showing the killer for who he/she really is. There is no doubt that there is a killer and the person has murdered a big chunk of Battler's family. Episode 6 looks like a big cover up for the culprit. To me, it just seems like Battler is covering for the culprit, why would he do that?
Well, Moetrice was willing to reveal that Kanon was the one who rescued Battler while Battler asked her if that was really an okay thing to do. It seems like he knew this answer all along (shades of the Genius Battler theory) but didn't want to use it. "The human side would be screaming that it's unfair" or something like that, he said.

So I thought that Kanon had something to do with Beatrice, and this was one of the biggest secrets and can lead to 'The Truth.' And now that I think about it maybe we're mired in the Mystery-style 'How' of how Kanon can do the things he can do, but if we think more about what it means and we stumble upon the Truth, we can use that to unlock the Mystery.

It could be that the Truth that Battler reached in EP5 had something to do with Kanon directly, but... maybe the better percentage is that it was something else and the funny going-ons with Shannon, Kanon and Battler, etc were all obvious consequences once you know it...
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Old 2010-06-28, 02:47   Link #11891
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
It could be that the Truth that Battler reached in EP5 had something to do with Kanon directly, but... maybe the better percentage is that it was something else and the funny going-ons with Shannon, Kanon and Battler, etc were all obvious consequences once you know it...
Kanon still has that chance to be that flat-chested loli with long black hair.
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Old 2010-06-28, 02:58   Link #11892
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I once thought Kanon had a twin on the island, but that's a crazy thought.
I meant that question in a different way, though. Let me use a bit of an exaggeration.
"Hey, I murdered your family. Do you mind covering for me, Broseph?" - Culprit
"No problem, Abroham Lincoln." - Battler
Even without an exaggeration, it makes no sense. I can see why Battler would forgive an orchestration of people faking their deaths but not their actual murders.
Battler is more of a jester than a king, and I don't know about Maria as a king either. However, Kanon's unusual movements definitely make him a knight. I think I made a mistake on my take of the pieces.
The King would be a mastermind if you thought about what a King literally is. However, a King in chess is the most valuable piece but relatively weak. The queen is literally a consort to the King, sorry if it sounds sexist. But in chess a Queen is the most powerful piece and second most valuable. A Knight is literally a guardian and in chess it would be a unique piece.
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Old 2010-06-28, 03:06   Link #11893
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Kanon still has that chance to be that flat-chested loli with long black hair.
I've had a strange gut feeling that he's the target of a good part of the murders for quite some time now. That would also explain a lot of the paralells he seems to share with Bernkastel. (most notably the comparisons to a cat)

It's coming up with reasons why that would be the case that has been bit more difficult. (I do have one in mind, but I'll probably have to post it another day as it's getting late and it'll take a while for me to write all of it out).
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Old 2010-06-28, 03:13   Link #11894
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I was thinking about Battler as a king and episode 6. The deaths have to be faked for a reason... to have someone find the gold? I am not sure but we know who the last target always seemed to be. (Battler) Now, what would making Battler think people are dying do? Punish him for leaving the family? I don't know.
Now with episode 5 and 6, we have people in the same room as Battler faking their deaths and Battler himself faking his death. Could it be that he is getting people to fake their deaths? Battler has a lot of opportunities to set some of the letters. Something about that feels wrong. But yet it clicks with what episode 6's difficulty says. I think what feels wrong is that Battler would know the trick to the closed rooms. Any other thoughts?
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Old 2010-06-28, 03:34   Link #11895
Oliver
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Originally Posted by ameskitty View Post
I've had a strange gut feeling that he's the target of a good part of the murders for quite some time now. That would also explain a lot of the paralells he seems to share with Bernkastel. (most notably the comparisons to a cat)
Well, there are some very clear inconsistencies in things said about Kanon that Battler seems to never pick up on.

The engagement ring scene in Ep1 says that "Under the guidance of the honorary director, Kinzo, the orphanage offered excellent graduates a chance to live a life of service. If they were accepted, they would be able to leave the orphanage and work as servants for the Ushiromiya family." But there is no way that any orphanage graduates people at 6, which is when Shannon had to have started working to be working for ten years, which is referenced multiple times. In fact, no orphanage would graduate children until they're of majority age. It's a bit more fluid in Japan than in other places, due to how various legal ages are spread out, but at least 18 would expected.

At the same time, Jessica says in the same Ep1: "Everyone Grandfather selected [from Fukuin] was young, about the same age as Shannon and Kanon." But for Kanon to be selected when he's the "same age" as Shannon, he has to have been selected at 6.

The following emerge as possibilities:
  1. Shannon and Kanon were both selected at 16, still before their graduation. Impossible, because there's too many sources mentioning Shannon has been around for ten years.
  2. Shannon and Kanon were both selected well before their graduation at 6. That leaves the question of where has he been for eight years.
  3. Neither Shannon nor Kanon actually were "selected", and they have no relation to Fukuin House except possibly on paper, being much more closely related to the family than anyone is willing to say.

Possibilities 2 and 3 make Kanon in particular more mysterious than Shannon because of the 8-year gap, and more likely to be connected to the murders, at least, if we leave aside the possibility of Shkanon.
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Old 2010-06-28, 04:15   Link #11896
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Random. Timing issues.

I'm trying to recover the daily schedule for October 4th and having some problems. So far, I get something like this for what would be a normal October 4th:
  • ??:00 -- Early morning, the Ushiromiya gather in an airport in an undisclosed location, one would expect the Tokyo International Airport because it's a domestic flight.
  • 08:00 -- They land and disembark at at Niijima Airport.
  • 10:30 -- Boat arrives to Rokkenjima.
  • 12:00 -- Cousins hang out in the guesthouse before getting called to lunch.
  • 13:30 -- Lunch starts.
  • 15:00 -- Beach picnic starts.
  • 17:22 -- Sunset is supposed to happen around this time, though I don't know how long does it take to go completely dark. Rain also starts around this time in Ep1 but well before that time in Ep2.
  • ??:?? -- Maria is normally found in the garden between the time the rain starts and the dinner starts.
  • 18:00 -- Cousins get called to dinner around this time
  • ??:?? -- Dinner actually starts.
  • 22:00 -- Cousins loiter around the parlor after the dinner has ended.
  • 22:00-23:00 -- George usually picks this time to give Shannon the ring if he's doing it at all.

The things I don't get...
  1. Just how long do these people really take to eat a full course meal? An hour for lunch seems normal, but the dinner seems to take up to three hours! Even if it takes much longer than it would normally because of the Beatrice letter, why do the cousins stick around for all the extra time and don't start loitering around the parlor an hour or so earlier? They're so disgusted with their parents, one would think they would run as soon as there was nothing tasty on the table, which is right when Maria opens up the letter.
  2. It feels like they're getting called to meal at least half an hour before it actually starts, and probably quite a bit more, which would be rather silly.
Yes, I'm overanalysing things, but some of it, in particular things related to Maria and her rose, should be quite important to how the rest of the game plays out.

EDIT: Correction. The airport they should be departing from is definitely Chofu Airport.
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-06-28 at 08:13.
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Old 2010-06-28, 04:28   Link #11897
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Mmm, two ideas Oliver

First, in reference to Kanon supposed graduation age, is there a possibility that Jessica is being really vague when she says about the same age as Kanon and Shanon? I haven't read the Japanese text, but isn't there both the possibility that when Jessica says about the same age as Kanon and Shanon she's referring to their current ages (16) or that she just means relatively young people (ages 6-14 apparently)? This of course would still raise questions as to why the hell were Shanon and Kanon selected when they were.

Second thought, that 3 hour gap with the waiting is relatively easy to explain if you think that the family is working under the impression that Kinzo is still alive? I mean, Krauss has to keep up appearances and so would at least pretend to wait for the "head" of the family before starting dinner. Considering Kinzo's influence and for appearances sake, at least some of that time could be eaten up by waiting for the phantom head. I don't know how long that would really be but if they wait an hour and eat a really slow dinner with lots of talking over 2 hours, we can sort of explain the time discrepancy?

edit: holy crap I just realized that the difference between getting called and them starting to loiter is about 4 hours. That's epic length and I'm not so sure anymore that the idea still has weight.
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Old 2010-06-28, 04:42   Link #11898
Oliver
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Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
First, in reference to Kanon supposed graduation age, is there a possibility that Jessica is being really vague when she says about the same age as Kanon and Shanon?
This is covered by possibility 3 - everyone else (Runon, Manon, Reion) were selected at 16 as part of their graduation (which mysteriously ends as they graduate middle school but is not THAT much of a stretch) while Shannon and Kanon were acquired by a method not related to any other Fukuin graduates, whether they are from Fukuin originally or not. This way Jessica's statement starts making some sense, but raises a question of what the heck Shannon and Kanon really are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Second thought, that 3 hour gap with the waiting is relatively easy to explain if you think that the family is working under the impression that Kinzo is still alive? I mean, Krauss has to keep up appearances and so would at least pretend to wait for the "head" of the family before starting dinner. Considering Kinzo's influence and for appearances sake, at least some of that time could be eaten up by waiting for the phantom head. I don't know how long that would really be but if they wait an hour and eat a really slow dinner with lots of talking over 2 hours, we can sort of explain the time discrepancy?

edit: holy crap I just realized that the difference between getting called and them starting to loiter is about 4 hours. That's epic length and I'm not so sure anymore that the idea still has weight.
Actually, that sort of works, but only sort of.
With the way Kinzo is ascribed such a high status in the family, it is really impolite to start a family dinner without him when he is expected to take part in it. The only thing that falls through is that none of the cousins seem complain that the old man none of them particularly liked anyway caused them to stay hungry for what, an extra hour? Two hours?

Also, the appearance is best maintained by the following sequence:
  • Krauss bangs on the door for ten minutes or so as everyone waits downstairs.
  • Genji enters 'to take orders' and returns saying that the Master will eat in his study, end of discussion.
  • Once the food is carried up to the study, no question remains that he isn't coming down so there's no point waiting and everyone can start eating, tension discharged.
This can be cleaned up in under an hour, which still leaves an hour unexplained.
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Old 2010-06-28, 05:01   Link #11899
Smeckledorf
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Has it ever been said when Kinzo died?
Also, when was the epitaph and portrait of Beatrice put up?
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Old 2010-06-28, 05:03   Link #11900
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I'll take a stab and say that the complaining could be at least muted out of the fear Kinzo that would beat the crap out of you, afterall, I wouldn't put it past Kinzo =P. I don't know how much of a hold that kind of fear still has on those who aren't in on the Kinzo phantom plot, but it has been repeated pretty often that even the adults still cringe at the memories. Still doesn't explain that extra hour though.

Maybe Krauss delays for longer than 10 minutes under the pretense of waiting for Kinzo in order to help with preparations with some plot going on in the background? Cause this 4 hour long dinner has the convenient side effect of freeing up many of the servants to do suspicious stuff without the possibility of getting caught. Afterall, all the Ushiromiya's are essentially trapped in the dining room for the entirety of the meal. As to what those actions could be, I have no clue.
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