AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-06-28, 06:57   Link #11921
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor A. Knox View Post
But now I think about it, since the Ushiromiya's are all luxery the would have:
1:apretizer
2:another dish (dont know the name in english)
3: head court
4: Dessert

And the Supper ofcourse....
...
THAT'S ALOT!! *jealous*
To be more specific, in Ep5, when Erika is present, a bit more details are given about what Ryukishi thinks Ushiromiya should eat like in this particular dinner, and definitely works like this:
  1. Hors d'oeuvres are mentioned, but it is never described what they are today. The word, unfortunately, covers a lot of things, but it is clear these are not finger food, as the question of the proper forks to eat them comes up. I would expect a salad.
  2. Soup. No details on what kind of soup.
  3. Main course, which is clearly said to be calf steak.
  4. Dessert, a chocolate cake.
But, it is quite definite that no other food beyond that is expected for the day, as once Maria reads her letter once the dessert is done, no further meals happen except suspected cases of tea brought into the conference.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 07:03   Link #11922
Dlanor A. Knox
Crazy but OK xP
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Netherlands
Age: 21
Hors d'oeuvres is french and literly means outside the main court. it's something like an apretizer, but its "lighter".
Mostly it's something like cheese, sausage etc.

Oh btw, The meals don't come after each other, most of the time they wait arround 15 mins, before the next dish comes.

so lets say that:
Hors d'oeuvres take15 mins to eat.
15 min break.
soup arround 20 mins (?)
15 min. break.
Steak arround 30 mins (?)
15 min break.
Dessert 10 mins


Total = 120 min. that's 2 hours... lol's
__________________
Just be yourself, you're crazy enough~
Tyllen 4 eva~!!
Dlanor A. Knox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 07:08   Link #11923
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Come to think of it, that's the only explanation really...

The dinner is actually expected to start at 19:30, and take about two hours of leisurely eating and chatting!

Normally, Genji would call the cousins by phone to fetch them around 19:00, and phones still work. But instead, Kanon comes personally on nobody's orders, because he is aware of Maria standing around alone in the garden! He intentionally comes early, because the plan is to have Maria searched for in the dark and under the rain, discovered, suitably pitied, and draw attention to her umbrella and the letter!

The added umbrella and letter conversations extend the length of the dinner in such a way that only at 22:00 the cousins run away into the parlor, filling out the missing hour!
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 07:10   Link #11924
delita-umw-
Wild Speculator
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: 13th Hierarchical City Kagutsuchi
Haha, I was thinking of Italy when I raised that point. So given this style, I guess we can reasonably say that's where the missing hour has gone?
delita-umw- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 07:11   Link #11925
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Haha, I was thinking of Italy when I raised that point. So given this style, I guess we can reasonably say that's where the missing hour has gone?
With half an hour remaining per dish... I think my blue works better.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 07:11   Link #11926
Dlanor A. Knox
Crazy but OK xP
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Netherlands
Age: 21
Yay, the dinner mystery is solved xD
Soo....now?
__________________
Just be yourself, you're crazy enough~
Tyllen 4 eva~!!
Dlanor A. Knox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 07:17   Link #11927
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor A. Knox View Post
Yay, the dinner mystery is solved xD
The interesting consequence of that blue would be that Kanon may have actually pulled most of the expected fake first twilight all by himself.

I don't think the variant where Kanon and Shannon are the two individually-bodied halves of single "Beatrice" -- Kanon the innocent half and Shannon the murdering half -- have been well explored yet.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 07:25   Link #11928
Dlanor A. Knox
Crazy but OK xP
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Netherlands
Age: 21
*nods* true, but I think there are many things that haven't been explored yet... not..that I know what those things are....

There's also a lot unknown about Kanon...
__________________
Just be yourself, you're crazy enough~
Tyllen 4 eva~!!
Dlanor A. Knox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 07:40   Link #11929
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
I don't know. My conclusion jumped the gun on explaining 'Maria's' letter. We know the letter was written by the person who is pretending to be Beatrice and that person knows about the murders and the bomb. I am just thinking, why would the murderer also set up a bomb? Seems like overkill. So, I think they are two separate plans.
What about that number from episode 3? 07151129. I was thinking about it. That is the key to obtaining money for a few people. The key was mailed the day before October 4th,1986. The person who painted those numbers was likely the same person who sent the money. But what is the meaning? I don't think it points out the murderer because getting it after you escape seems a little useless. Maybe it is the code to deactivate the bomb?
Smeckledorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 07:50   Link #11930
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor A. Knox View Post
There's also a lot unknown about Kanon...
Well, here's the variant in particular for Ep1.
  • Both Kanon and Shannon actually lay claim to the title of Beatrice. It is immaterial if Kanon is a girl or not, pick whichever you feel more comfortable with.
  • Both Kanon and Shannon are actually in competition for Battler's love, rather than someone else's. Now that it is known that Battler is coming, they can go through with their respective plans.
  • Kanon has a Plan to make Battler solve the epitaph and rid Kanon of the impending title of the head that would otherwise fall on him because of Kinzo's wishes. He also sets up a contingency plan of the bomb in case he fails.
  • Shannon actually wants to prevent Battler from solving the epitaph as she is fed up with this whole Ushiromiya business, gold and associated strain, she'd rather elope. But it has to be Battler. She is the Beatrice that Maria knows about, and for the moment, plays along with Kanon.
  • In the morning, Kanon digs up the buried Kinzo, hides him on the premises and is now in the posession of the ring.
  • George is acting on Shannon's request and marks a rose with no provocation -- Shannon passes it off as an attempt to play happy a magic trick on Maria by replacing the rose later with a healthy one and saying Beatrice healed it with magic.
  • But instead, Maria is stuck in the garden alone, and gets the umbrella and the letter - written by Kanon.
  • Later on, tea is served to the adults in conference which contains a sleeping draught. They are hidden in the garden shed with Shannon to watch over them, and Kanon thinks all will be alright now and sets Kinzo's corpse on 'medium well done'.
  • But instead, Shannon kills the sleeping adults, seeing her chance to strike.
  • Hideyoshi witnesses Shannon's "body" in the shed. Shannon is actually sleeping and possibly covered in real blood and guts from her victims to make it look like she is also dead.
  • Later on, Shannon kills Hideyoshi as a witness and hides in the room, killing Eva as a witness to Hideyoshi's murder. Kanon, fearing that it must be Shannon who has betrayed him, rushes to cut the chain, but is too late. Resulting commotion prevents him from having a heart-to-heart talk with Shannon whom he knows is hiding there, so he doesn't give her away.
  • Asking Jessica for help in the first and only time in his life, with Jessica and Nanjo Kanon fakes his own death.
  • Further mess continues as Maria places the second letter on the table, unaware that the plan has been called off.
  • Shannon kills Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo, leaving Maria alive.
  • Natsuhi, observing the whole mess, rushes out to see Kanon trying to shoot Shannon but accidentally, Kanon kills Natsuhi instead.
Something like that.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 07:54   Link #11931
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor A. Knox View Post
Hors d'oeuvres is french and literly means outside the main court. it's something like an apretizer, but its "lighter".
Mostly it's something like cheese, sausage etc.

Oh btw, The meals don't come after each other, most of the time they wait arround 15 mins, before the next dish comes.

so lets say that:
Hors d'oeuvres take15 mins to eat.
15 min break.
soup arround 20 mins (?)
15 min. break.
Steak arround 30 mins (?)
15 min break.
Dessert 10 mins


Total = 120 min. that's 2 hours... lol's
That seems about right. An important dinner should last at least that much, and Gohda is certainly not the "fast food" kind. He believes a dinner is not just about feeding, it's an experience that must be slowly enjoyed and must be entertaining.

That kind of schedule isn't much different from a typical (proper) italian dinner, anyway. Except you'd have pasta or risotto instead of the soup, then fruit after the dessert, and lastly coffee for whoever desires it.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 08:20   Link #11932
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
On the messed-up Second Twilights in Chiru, there's always the simplest explanation that the culprit just messes up. Even if we believe Hideyoshi was going to fake the second twilight but was actually attacked and killed, clearly things didn't go quite as planned with Natsuhi witnessing and Eva coming back too soon. That leaves aside the issue of where the culprit could have gone, but ignoring that, it could just be a bungle. And in ep6, the game may simply pause before the culprit got around to finishing up.

But an excellent point has been raised: "tear apart" does not imply murder per the Plotline Murders scheme, so in theory no one has to die in the Second Twilight at all.

However, here's an even stranger thing: If the Plotline Murders are supposed to track the epitaph, the culprit should not be killing at the second twilight.

Look at the epitaph! "At the second twilight, those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close."

The executor of the Second Twilight is clearly stated to be "those who remain." If we go by the (incorrect) epitaph murder ritual interpretation, the killer should be forcing the remaining survivors to commit the Second Twilight, not doing it him or herself.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 08:39   Link #11933
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The executor of the Second Twilight is clearly stated to be "those who remain." If we go by the (incorrect) epitaph murder ritual interpretation, the killer should be forcing the remaining survivors to commit the Second Twilight, not doing it him or herself.
That begs the question of how close the "two who are close" have to be to qualify and whether just placing them in the opposite corners of the mansion under strict orders "not to approach each other or no dessert for dinner" will do.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 08:43   Link #11934
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
This is no news, it's been noticed since a while that the serial murder isn't really following the epitaph properly. If you see a problem with the second twilight, then what should we say about the third? Was it ever respected?

Anyway the "tear apart" thing can be interpreted as murder if you believe that the only thing that can tear apart two people that love each other is death. The marriage vow says "Until death do us part" isn't it?

However there's still the problem that the "remaining" should do it, not some random killer.

This is actually a problem that applies to the epitaph solution from the riddle standpoint. The only interpretation that I've seen is that you need to move the remaining letters to the center between the "two who are close".
However neither the qilian theory nor the kogane theory do that. And both of them assume "the two" must be killed.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 08:59   Link #11935
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
This is actually a problem that applies to the epitaph solution from the riddle standpoint. The only interpretation that I've seen is that you need to move the remaining letters to the center between the "two who are close".
However neither the qilian theory nor the kogane theory do that. And both of them assume "the two" must be killed.
Well, I'm not getting anything with moving the remaining letters between those who are close while starting with Qilian/quadrillion. dulor, rulod, duolr, ruold, dluor, rluod, dlour, rloud, doulr, rould, dolur, rolud... no more permutations remain and none of those make any reasonable sense.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 09:09   Link #11936
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
This is no news, it's been noticed since a while that the serial murder isn't really following the epitaph properly. If you see a problem with the second twilight, then what should we say about the third? Was it ever respected?
It was halfassed with the discord letter in a few episodes, and outright ignored in others. The problem with the third is the same as with the second; it's the survivors who should be doing it, and it's hard to force them to do it, especially if you're trying to keep your goings-on secret.

But the discord letter is wrong too. The epitaph is addressed to Beatrice! The actual author of the epitaph is speaking in the first-person, therefore the "honorable name" isn't Beatrice. It's whoever is behind the ritual.

...Is there anyone who receives praise consistently sometime after the Second Twilight but before the Fourth?

Granted, the epitaph murders are being committed wrong regardless since we know the epitaph is not about any sort of ritual. The "right answer" will be treating it as a puzzle, as that's the answer that's twice been shown to correctly lead to the gold. Still, I wonder if the person using the epitaph put much thought into what they were doing, because even a cursory reading would indicate they're doing things wrong.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 09:11   Link #11937
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Granted, the epitaph murders are being committed wrong regardless since we know the epitaph is not about any sort of ritual. The "right answer" will be treating it as a puzzle, as that's the answer that's twice been shown to correctly lead to the gold. Still, I wonder if the person using the epitaph put much thought into what they were doing, because even a cursory reading would indicate they're doing things wrong.
That, actually, could be the motive for the stakings and seals.

I.e. murders are not thought of as epitaph murders by the murderer, but someone else "cleans up" after them trying to make them conform to the epitaph at best they can.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 09:15   Link #11938
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
whops I said it wrong... both qilian and kogane theory assume the two must not be killed.

However what's the point in tearing the two who are close apart is absolutely not clear. Maybe it's something related to the mechanism?
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 09:17   Link #11939
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
The problem with that is the consistency. The murderer always kills, or tries to kill, 5-6 people the first night, but never more or less, and he/she never seems to delay or make opportunistic extra kills the first evening. Then the Second Twilight relies on a lot of luck in getting two people within a short amount of time, not getting caught, and then proceeding with the last five.

It's just oddly convenient that, if we believe the killer isn't following the epitaph, just the right number of people die (or appear to die).

Fake murders into real murders perhaps fixes the FT for us, but it's still probably pretty easy to take out a few other people in the mansion at night and the FT killer doesn't. And that doesn't help with the ST once people realize the FT wasn't faked, or don't realize it wasn't supposed to be real.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-06-28, 09:31   Link #11940
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Fake murders into real murders perhaps fixes the FT for us, but it's still probably pretty easy to take out a few other people in the mansion at night and the FT killer doesn't. And that doesn't help with the ST once people realize the FT wasn't faked, or don't realize it wasn't supposed to be real.
What "few other people"? It looks to me like in every FT, the number of people in the mansion beside the FT victims is very slim. Suspiciously, they tend to live long after the FT, often, all the way to the end.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:16.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.