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Old 2010-06-29, 10:53   Link #61
Theowne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushi
But then, I began to "expand my horizons" and found out what a hopeless romantic I was. Naturally, I began to watch a lot more harem/moe/slice of life type stuff.....I eventually came to accept the fanservice as part of the way things were.
I wouldn't say it's part of the way things are, except for a specific subset of the anime viewership. I suppose if I consumed anime at a faster rate, I probably would have run out of romance anime that didn't exploit fanservice, since they certainly seem to be in the minority these days....Personally, I think being a "hopeless romantic" is what keeps me away from those sorts of anime in the first place.
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Old 2010-06-29, 10:54   Link #62
Qikz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai dono View Post
It always ruins my day, and sometimes the next few days, depending on how long and how good the anime was. A wierd phase f depression.
This for me too, so sad Working, Mayoi Neko Overrun, Angel beats and Arakawa are already over.
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Old 2010-06-29, 11:00   Link #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushi View Post
You really thought Haruhi had intolerable fanservice!?
Not intolerable, I was just coming with an example of blatant fanservice and those costumes for Mikuru certainly fit under that category. But yeah Haruhi's level of fanservice is definitely okay compared to some other series, so I guess that was quite a poor example, sorry about that.
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Old 2010-06-29, 11:46   Link #64
Mushi
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Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
I wouldn't say it's part of the way things are, except for a specific subset of the anime viewership.....Personally, I think being a "hopeless romantic" is what keeps me away from those sorts of anime in the first place.
Well, Theowne, noticing your avatar/sig, I see you're a Miyazaki fan. So, I would assume that you have tastes more refined along the works of that great master. And there's certainly nothing wrong with that. I consider just about everything Miyazaki makes to be masterpieces. If that's your preference then it's understandable that you would shy away from anything that exploits fanservice.

I guess I look at it like the different styles of anime (I won't use the loosely defined 'genre') are like ice cream. Miyazaki is like French Vanilla. Always good, always satisfying. You know what you're going to get.

Moe/Harem/Slice of Life is like Ben & Jerry's. Oatmeal Cookie Chunk, Karamel Sutra, Neapolitan Dynamite, Strawberry Banana, Key Lime Pie, on and on... They are new and fresh, exciting, inviting, stimulating. They make it so you can't wait to try the next new thing.

But then... every once in a while... you just get this feeling that nothing will hit the spot like some good old fashioned French Vanilla. Ahhh... Yes! So good. So satisfying. So familiar.

Quote:
But yeah Haruhi's level of fanservice is definitely okay compared to some other series, so I guess that was quite a poor example, sorry about that.
No, zette, there's no need to apologize, I was just wondering if I was missing something. I saw Mikuru's maid outfits as more of a play on a character type than purely fanservice. I guess I make a fairly solid distinction between moe and fanservice.
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Old 2010-06-29, 12:51   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushi View Post
Well, Theowne, noticing your avatar/sig, I see you're a Miyazaki fan. So, I would assume that you have tastes more refined along the works of that great master. And there's certainly nothing wrong with that. I consider just about everything Miyazaki makes to be masterpieces. If that's your preference then it's understandable that you would shy away from anything that exploits fanservice.
I don't think it's merely a matter of having a refined taste or not.....I know you didn't mean this in your post, but it reminded me of an earlier discussion where people threw around the term "elitist" towards people who don't like fanservice shows...I just don't think it's that simple. There's the refined, intellectual type of anime (Mushishi, Tatami Galaxy) and then simpler, but still endearing stuff (lKodocha, Maison Ikkoku). But liking or disliking ecchi/moe/fanservice shows is a separate topic that has more to do with liking/disliking certain trends in those genres and not identifying with their target audiences.

[/random tangent]
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Last edited by Theowne; 2010-06-29 at 14:51.
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Old 2010-06-29, 13:30   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushi View Post
Well, Theowne, noticing your avatar/sig, I see you're a Miyazaki fan. So, I would assume that you have tastes more refined along the works of that great master. And there's certainly nothing wrong with that. I consider just about everything Miyazaki makes to be masterpieces.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
I don't think it's merely a matter of having a refined taste or not..... I know you didn't mean this in your post, but it reminded me of an earlier discussion where people threw around the term "elitist" towards people who don't like fanservice shows...I just don't think it's that simple.
Interesting that "elitist" and Miyazaki get mentioned in two consecutive posts. It's notable, to me, that Miyazaki had once firmly insisted that Studio Ghibli produces animation not anime.

Such is the level of esteem that most people have of the man that few believe that he was being aloof or arrogant. It's worth wondering, though, why he would make such a distinction. And, as Theowne suggests, I doubt the reasons are as simple as Ghibli movies being more "refined" than pop-culture entertainment anime. If that were the case, my opinion of Miyazaki would be knocked down a peg or two.

As this thread stands, we're not getting very much in the way of fruitful discussion. Most of the complaints voiced against anime here are so general that they can be applied to virtually any form of popular entertainment, from pulp-fiction novels to TV soap operas and Hollywood blockbusters.

So, if anything, the complaints are more about "popular entertainment" in general than about anime specifically. And the cognitive dissonance stems probably from the mistaken notion that anime is somehow more "elite" than Western entertainment — it never was. It was simply a novelty to those who had first discovered it, relishing in the different approaches to storytelling not usually taken by Western producers.

And now that the novelty has worn out, jaded fans start longing for a Golden Age that never was. Heck, if Slice of Life were around, he'd have a thing or two to say about this subject.

Personally? I don't really have any "hatred" for the medium or the fans in particular (I was just playing along with james' quip). But I do have plenty of disappointments about the anime industry, from the creators to the production committees and the merchandisers. In general, that has been a bit too much parochialism, and not enough attempts to reach out to a wider global audience, let alone to more mature viewers.

Japanese video-game developers have long realised it, so why haven't anime producers? Your young, childish fans do eventually grow up into responsible, working adults. They don't all become otaku. Why isn't more being done to cash in on that wellspring of nostalgia?

Let's not forget that the anime that marked a high point in the medium back in the 1990s — Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Cowboy Bepop and so on — had a particular appeal to audiences beyond Japan, precisely because they were very much made with a broader demography in mind. When people like Oshii and Anno moan about a creative dearth in anime, they are referring to that time of creative ferment now apparently "missing" in Japan.

To be sure, I don't really think any more that it had gone missing. But it certainly does seem harder to find today. Economic reasons have been cited time and again. I wonder. Perhaps it's more fundamental than that. But such insight is hard to glean from armchair critics. Only the people who work in the industry can really say what's going wrong.

Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2010-06-29 at 15:16.
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Old 2010-06-29, 13:32   Link #67
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I dislike that a great many anime series have become akin to one big inside joke - they push forward some random elements of 'anime/manga otaku' culture that longtime fans find hilarious/interesting etc but end up isolating casual or new fans.
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Old 2010-06-29, 13:38   Link #68
Mushi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
I don't think it's merely a matter of having a refined taste or not.....
Well, I was trying to address the issue of fanservice, since that seems to be a common thing to "hate." You had mentioned that specifically in a way that seemed to be exclusive. So, the phrase that came to mind was "refined tastes."

Quote:
I know you didn't mean this in your post, but it reminded me of an earlier discussion where people threw around the term "elitist" towards people who don't like fanservice shows...
No, I didn't by any means intend to imply that I thought you were being elitist. Tell you what, you don't call me a "dirty old man" for liking an occasional dose of fanservice, and I won't call you an "elitist" for thinking otherwise. Deal?


Quote:
I just don't think it's that simple.
No, it isn't. I don't care for the word "hate," as used in the topic title, because it's such a strong, negative word, but I accept it as a word of convenience that's used to describe a broad range of emotion. I can't say I really "hate" anything about anime, but there are things that I'd rather avoid or ignore... so I do.
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Old 2010-06-29, 13:44   Link #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing
Also about hero power ups; the thing I hate the most is that it's often is that it's an instant turnaround, like POWER UP and kill the villain in one hit. Why can't it just slowly turn the battle in favor of the hero? The villain just loses because he's supposed to here in the script which makes you wonder why the hell we didn't just start with this super power up. At worst, it makes the hero seem like a stupid douchebag that is endangering the fate of the world for no reason.
THIS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaxxmintpie
Whinny kids/ Damsel in distress, again most are pointless. I'm fine with cute, but I can't for the love of god figure out the Japanese's preference for helpless pretty princesses who's just there to look good with no relation to the plot or whatsoever.
THIS

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaxxmintpie
Cheesy "In-your-face-I'm-gonna-protect-my-friends-and-families" dialogues.
MILLION TIMES THIS!!!

To add some that I'm surprised noone has mentioned before...

*) FILLERS!!! ARGH! It's a pain having to check which episodes are worth watching.

*) When charachters say things to each other just to inform the viewer what's going on, making their conversation sound extremely inane. People do not generally explain to each other in full detail things they obviously know. I understand it can be difficult to explain the background of what's going on to the viewer, but hey, that's part of the difficulty that comes with writing a good story. Using this stupid device is as disappointing as it is comfortable.

*) ENDLESS chatter and taunting during fights. Like SHEESH, GET ON WITH IT!

*) People not involved in the fight screaming the hero's name when the enemy uses something dangerous-looking. OMG this drives me nuts. SO GOD DAMN ANNOYING.

*) Scenes that have sort of extremely exaggerated HAPPY PEACEFUL SAFE style, you know, sun is shining, birds are singing, everyone is walking around with a huge motherfrauding grin on their face, LOL. Makes my skin crawl.

Quote:
comedy in an anime that is supposed to be serious
I might actually disagree with this though. Comedy in an otherwise serious anime can catch me completely off guard and drive me into a fit of maniacal laughter. When I first saw the penguin in eva I completely lost it. It was so random. Of course if it's bad comedy though, then it's just bad, maybe that was your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246
Seriously though, anime is a medium, so complaining about specific shows, or specific tropes in specific genres is in no way a reflection of the medium. If you want to talk about frame rate issues, editing techniques, animation short-cuts, etc or something indicative of the medium, then let's talk, otherwise you are not talking about anime, but rather specific shows (tropes, genres, etc)...
I feel this is just semantics. It would be very tiresome to start to put disclaimers everywhere about how you are talking only about the anime that you have seen or anime that is popular and in no way mean to make sweeping generalisations about the whole medium blah blah blah...

Bottom line is YOU GET THE POINT. People have a certain perception anime and they have certain complaints to make about a big chunk of everything they have seen up to any given point and they would like to be able to do so freely and lightheartedly on an internet forum. Yeah, it would be silly to make sweeping generalisations about all of anime having the same kinds of mistakes but until you see someone actually state that specifically, give people the benefit of doubt and assume that they are talking about anime that they have happened to see thus far. Which, strangely enough, is very often similar for a large number of people, allowing such conversation to generate the satisfaction of knowing that you are not alone in your hate. As in the beginning of my post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
As this thread stands, we're not getting very much in the way of fruitful discussion. Most of the complaints voiced against anime here are so general that they can be applied to virtually any form of popular entertainment, from pulp-fiction novels to TV soap operas and Hollywood blockbusters.
Again disagree. Anime has many common flaws which I haven't seen anywhere else. Hollywood blockbusters have many common flaws which I have not seen in anime (that is probably a big part of the appeal anime has had for me - it's not that it has fewer flaws, but it has different flaws, which makes it feel like a breath of fresh air... well, at least it did for a while, until I got used to it's successes and got sick of it's flaws). I feel none of the things I mentioned for an example really apply to any other medium to a comparable extent. I have not seen them anywhere close to the degree in any genre or form of western media, shot or drawn.

Some people do go to ridiculous lengths with their bashing, but some people also get upset too easily when anything bad is said about anime. Everything in this thread has been well in line so far as far as I can tell. No need to call the fire brigade to put out a cigarette on the ground.

Last edited by Vantek; 2010-06-29 at 14:06.
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Old 2010-06-29, 14:23   Link #70
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What's not to like about anime? It's an incredibly imaginative medium that is only limited by its innovators (and of course socio-economic issues). About the only thing negative that can be said about the medium, is the fact (or at least my opinion) that animated drama will never equal live-action drama (and this is mostly due to the whole valley thing (that is not to say that voice actors/directors/etc cannot help to bridge this gap somewhat)). Besides that, though, anime/animation is filled with amazing potential that, while squandered at times, offers endless entertainment and sometimes more.
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Old 2010-06-29, 14:29   Link #71
Vantek
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What's not to like about anime?
The things I mentioned and quoted?
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Old 2010-06-29, 14:56   Link #72
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
What's not to like about anime? ...About the only thing negative that can be said about the medium, is the fact (or at least my opinion) that animated drama will never equal live-action drama (and this is mostly due to the whole valley thing.
An excellent point, which I brought up tentatively three years ago ("Are there animated films that should have been live-action instead?"), citing Toki wo Kakeru Shoujo as an example.

I don't fully agree that the "uncanny valley" is a root cause though. In fact, it may be exactly the opposite. Satoshi Kon — through his movies like Perfect Blue, Millenium Actress and Paprika — best demonstrates this point: Animation, as a medium, is particularly suited for stories with a heavy emphasis on fantasy and surrealism. For all the advances in CG and 3-D technology, live-action movies today still can't quite evoke the sense of realism that effective stop-motion special effects could, precisely because it's very easy for the human eye to spot images or effects that are simply "too perfect to be true".

Animation neatly sidesteps the problem, since everything is already set inside an "unreal" environment, rendering the most outlandish effects "plausible" in anime. As one of the designers (I forget his name) of Final Fantasy Advent Children said: "If we don't make it look cool, we might as well not animate this."

All this dovetails neatly with a self-critique I have on my desire for anime targeted at older, more "mature" audiences: Is it really healthy for the medium? Perhaps, perhaps not. People like Makoto Shinkai have demonstrated that animation can enhance "mature" romances through "hyper-realism" — Romanticism upped to the nth degree, as seen in 5 Centimetres Per Second, for example.

But, at the same time, I've lost count of the number of times my mother asked why movies like Only Yesterday aren't filmed in live-action. Indeed, why not? It's hard to see what animation adds to these stories, grounded so heavily as they are on real-life issues that have impact on real-life people.

So, there you go. Much more discussion on such "meta" issues would be interesting. That said, it would be "elitist" of me to make such an argument so, yeah, I won't quibble overly much with Vantek's assertion of snobbery on my part. People are entitled to gripe so, go ahead, vent away.

Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2010-06-29 at 16:41.
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Old 2010-06-29, 14:59   Link #73
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
About the only thing negative that can be said about the medium, is the fact (or at least my opinion) that animated drama will never equal live-action drama
It's no wonder I feel so frustrated with how war is portrayed in anime, compared to the big titles in western cinema.
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Old 2010-06-29, 15:34   Link #74
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
People are entitled to gripe so, go ahead, vent away.
Thank you
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Old 2010-06-29, 15:45   Link #75
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What I don't like about anime? Hmm... That it's in japanese? Just kidding.

But seriously, what I don't like about anime (if this even directly related) is the social stigma that tends to follow liking it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's felt this way. No one makes a big deal about being obsessed with syndicated shows like Lost or NCIS, but if you feel the same way about anime, people think you're weird.
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Old 2010-06-29, 16:07   Link #76
Vantek
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I wonder with whom you guys are having these problems with. I would have no problem telling I like anime to most people I know. I do see a hate campaign on the internet by young guys who go to hysterical lengths to seem macho, but that's not something anyone should be affected by.

Only if you are a true fanatic could I see a problem, but that's in no way limited to anime. Sci fi and western comic book fans suffer just as much.
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Old 2010-06-29, 16:25   Link #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
But, at the same time, I've lost count of the number of times my mother asked why movies like Only Yesterday aren't filmed in live-action. Indeed, why not? It's hard to see what animation adds to these stories, grounded so heavily as they are on real-life issues that have impact on real-life people.
What animation adds to Only Yesterday might be minimal compared to what it does for Millenium Actress, but I don't think it's nonexistent. The most vivid example is the flights of imagination that are used to portray and embellish the young main character's first experience with young love. Such a thing would feel fairly tacky and out of place in a live-action film, but less so within the animated world.

I don't think it has to always be about physically impossible moments either. Grave of the Fireflies received much more acclaim as an animated film than a live-action production, despite the fact that it also technically didn't need to be one. Yet the fact that it was animated, that the kids were drawings instead of flesh and blood, that the young girl's facial contortions were animated instead of acted, surely these things make a significant difference to the impression a viewer receives from a scene. Essentially, the very fact that it's a stylized portrayal of reality already makes the impression to the viewer very different, something worth exploiting.

I find this to be a question that I have a firm answer to, but have some difficulty voicing sensible reasons for. I may return with a longer answer...
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Old 2010-06-29, 16:39   Link #78
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So many things, but the first ones that come to mind are both in-your-face fanservice and moe for the sake of moe.

While the two concepts are not exactly what bothers me, it's when it is particularly clear to me what the makers are trying to do that it annoys me...

Any KEY work is very guilty of this, as well as several other harem/moe shows... Shounens tends to be more guilty of the fanservice bit.

If they trying to service the fans, I don't want to know that they trying to service me... If not then it feels very unnatural in the story, and just becomes annoying. Same with moe... I don't want them to try and make me think the girl is cute or anything that turns me on and such...

It just comes off as horrible story writing... And that's why they inject these elements into these animes, since they don't feel the story and characters alone are enough to make the story.

These two things in anime in particular, is something that is wrong with the industry in general. It's quite a rampant issue.

These are not the only two things that annoy me about anime, but they are two of the worst. I may come back later and detail my other qualms...
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:10   Link #79
james0246
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
But, at the same time, I've lost count of the number of times my mother asked why movies like Only Yesterday aren't filmed in live-action. Indeed, why not? It's hard to see what animation adds to these stories, grounded so heavily as they are on real-life issues that have impact on real-life people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
What animation adds to Only Yesterday might be minimal compared to what it does for Millenium Actress, but I don't think it's nonexistent. The most vivid example is the flights of imagination that are used to portray and embellish the young main character's first experience with young love. Such a thing would feel fairly tacky and out of place in a live-action film, but less so within the animated world.
One key difference between live-action and anime is the fact that there are not many (read: extraordinarily few) decent child (6-15 specifically) actors (lots of adorable child actors (Wen Wen Han from the recent Karate Kid is super adorable), but very few decent child actors). It's so much easier to draw a child and get a childish voice, than it is to train a child to be a decent actor (maybe this should be a defense used in one of those loli cases in America - appreciation of the adult voice in the little body...j/k) .

Additionally, it is far more "acceptable", maybe even "realistic", for a childlike animated character to be put in danger or to fall in love, than it is for an actual child to show the same emotions or activities (going back to the recent Karate Kid, the romance subplot between the young Jaden Smith and Wen Wen Han is a little off-putting due to their age (he's 12, and she's supposed to be 12-13)). Can anyone imagine Hanamaru Youchien done with live action? .

Last edited by james0246; 2010-06-29 at 17:29.
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:23   Link #80
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What I hate:

The overuse of the "moe series."

Inappropriately-placed fanservice.

Ludicrous product placement. Summer Wars is a good example of product placement done well--logos where you expect to see them, but not Pizza Huts everywhere.

Yuri that doesn't actually have any yuri in it.

Lazy animators.

Inconsistent animators (lolhi DEEN).

Adaptation Decay.

Shitty endings (lolhi GONZO).

"AMERIKKA IS TEH EVULZ HURR." Getting really sick of this one. We get enough of this from our own citizens, we don't need it from other countries! If you're going to portray the gubment as the Big Bad, at least do it well and not in yet another "FUCK BUSH" allegory.
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