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Old 2010-06-29, 14:48   Link #12081
Leafsnail
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Well, twisted logic is half the point of the games. A witch has to exist if a theory not involving a witch isn't found, and a witch has to be fake if a theory not involving a witch is found.

On the other hand, if Kinzo is still alive, why keep burning his corpse? And "Kinzo" is actually his real name... unlike with Shannon and Kanon, which are "Pseudonyms used only for work".
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Old 2010-06-29, 14:56   Link #12082
Renall
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The problem with Kinzo still being alive is it requires that he be evading not only everyone on the island (both the people who think he's dead and the ones who "know" he is), but also the red text and witch's narration, despite having no way of knowing that he needs to be doing so. If Kinzo were alive, he'd essentially be fooling the entire meta-world as well.
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Old 2010-06-29, 15:02   Link #12083
Leafsnail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The problem with Kinzo still being alive is it requires that he be evading not only everyone on the island (both the people who think he's dead and the ones who "know" he is), but also the red text and witch's narration, despite having no way of knowing that he needs to be doing so. If Kinzo were alive, he'd essentially be fooling the entire meta-world as well.
I wouldn't-

Yeah, he's dead.
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Old 2010-06-29, 15:15   Link #12084
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Okay, on three everybody:

Wouldn't put it past him.
You made me do it! http://i50.tinypic.com/augtuo.jpg
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Old 2010-06-29, 15:20   Link #12085
Judoh
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Well I'll start with this.

I can proclaim it with 100% certainty.

The only mystery Ushiromiya Kinzo's body was involved in was his life or death status! Ushiromiya Kinzo's body was not involved nor did it have any influence in the murder of any other person on October 4th and 5th of 1986, and it was not involved in any kind of suicide either!

Ushiromiya Kinzo's body had no relation to any of the slight of hand tricks that happened the two days I referred to earlier! This refers to any tricks where an object is replaced with another broken object or was placed out of sight in a place no one had seen it before.

EDIT: of course these only refer to tricks involving actions from his body and not the body itself.

Ushiromiya Kinzo's body was not involved in delivering any letters or umbrellas in the year 1986

In short no actions that could have any relation to the Rokkenjima mystery were related to any actions taken by Ushiromiya Kinzo's body!

Regardless of any personalities this body may have had it was not involved in anything other than the presentation of a plot line murder and his death was already proclaimed previously with the red truth!

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-06-29 at 15:59.
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Old 2010-06-29, 15:23   Link #12086
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Ushiromiya Kinzo's body had no relation to any of the slight of hand tricks that happened the two days I referred to earlier! This refers to any tricks where an object is replaced with another broken object or was placed out of sight in a place no one had seen it before.
Wait. Are you sure that the corpse we are normally presented as Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse is always indeed the body of a dead Ushiromiya Kinzo, and not that body being replaced by some other body?

Like that of Kanon.
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"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
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Old 2010-06-29, 15:24   Link #12087
TTR
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Wait when are those reds said? 6?
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Old 2010-06-29, 15:32   Link #12088
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Wait. Are you sure that the corpse we are normally presented as Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse is always indeed the body of a dead Ushiromiya Kinzo, and not that body being replaced by some other body?

Like that of Kanon.
Well I added an edit to that. As long as actions from his body are not involved slight of hand tricks still work.
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Old 2010-06-29, 15:33   Link #12089
Leafsnail
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Ah, so the body that Ushiromiya Kinzo owned prior to the meeting had nothing to do with the game.

What about him?
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Old 2010-06-29, 15:40   Link #12090
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Ah, so the body that Ushiromiya Kinzo owned prior to the meeting had nothing to do with the game.

What about him?
Know that no corpses exist except those of characters who have appeared in the story!
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Old 2010-06-29, 15:42   Link #12091
Leafsnail
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Wait, so Kinzo owns his servants' corpses?
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Old 2010-06-29, 15:46   Link #12092
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Wait, so Kinzo owns his servants' corpses?
This is possible in legal terms -- basically, in any country that has the concept of an organ donor, it is possible to will your own body after your death to become someone's property.

No practical use outside a comedic theory, though.
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Old 2010-06-29, 15:50   Link #12093
Leafsnail
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Ok. So the corpse of Asumu, which Kinzo brought on the black market for some reason, was not used in the game. Meanwhile, Kinzo decided to kill everyone.

Case closed, guys. We can lock the thread now.
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Old 2010-06-29, 15:52   Link #12094
Judoh
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Speaking of Asumu anybody think it would be funny if the way she died was in a plane crash? She seems to have the same fear of unfamiliar vehicles that Battler does, but there could always be another reason for his fear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Meanwhile, Kinzo decided to kill everyone.
The way my red works is basically a rehash of the red about Jessica when Battler made a theory about her having another personality. So does she own another body too?

(This is in response to Battler's statement about Jessica having multiple personalities.)
No actions caused by Jessica's body had any relation to or influence on the murder of Nanjo
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Old 2010-06-29, 16:02   Link #12095
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Speaking of Asumu anybody think it would be funny if the way she died was in a plane crash? She seems to have the same fear of unfamiliar vehicles that Battler does, but there could always be another reason for his fear.
She died a bit too mysteriously. She got married to Rudolf too mysteriously. She basically makes no sense.
  • If she's of an age close to Kyrie, she died at 30-40. People do die early, sure, but usually there's a good reason.
  • Sumaderas got paid off for Kyrie, but Rudolf still married Asumu, as far as we know from Battler's lifestyle in the past six years -- a commoner. And knowing that he actually married Kyrie immediately despite Battler's protest, one would think he loved Kyrie more.
  • You'd think Kinzo would get mad after paying Sumaderas off and this going to waste, but apparently he wasn't.
  • Pretty much nothing is known about her except her fear of vehicles, apparently inherited by Battler through education.
  • And yet she gave birth to that renowned criminal, the Other Battler, one of the most annoying creatures in the formal red!

And worst of all, we got no good leads.
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"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
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Old 2010-06-29, 16:10   Link #12096
Judoh
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Furthermore the quote we have from Kyrie about her death is as dubious as Natsuhi praying to Beatrice to kill that baby from 19 years ago.

Quote:
Asumu-san should just Die.

And then I want him [Rudolf] to remarry with me. In my envy, I kept cursing like that, over and over, until Asumu-san finally died.

I was certain.

I was certain I had possessed the power of magic, which had become a curse and killed Asumu-san.
Well if we relate that to Natuhi's infanticide I wonder if we should explain that as "it never happened" or "it happened, but there is another reason for it". If we connected these two things to Battler's sin we could add all of his maternal grandparents to the list of dead people as well. Spooooookkky

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-06-29 at 16:23.
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Old 2010-06-29, 16:29   Link #12097
Renall
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Here's what I don't get: Touya claims she did "research" on the Ushiromiya family to fill in the gaps in her stories, including the Battler birth issue. Yet she apparently learned absolutely no further details about the death of Ushiromiya Asumu.

...What? Come on, at least the way she died and when would be pretty public knowledge. All we ever get out of it is Kyrie vaguely suggesting that Asumu did die and that she wasn't the one responsible, but she wanted to be.

Of course going by some vague Touya/Featherinne = Piece of Some Other Meta-Character or Touya = Asumu theory, it would make a bit more sense, but if there was ever actually such a writer, her research has a remarkable hole in it.
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2010-06-29, 16:35   Link #12098
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well if we relate that to Natuhi's murder I wonder if we should explain that as "it never happened" or "it happened, but there is another reason for it". If we connected this to Battler's sin we could add all of his maternal grandparents to the list of dead people as well. Spooooookkky
We basically don't have sufficient information to conclude any of that even in a very hypothetical way.

Though, let me offer a chain of thought, maybe someone will know where it leads to next.
  1. Asumu is a commoner. Her family is neither wealthy nor has any prestige to boast of.
  2. Kyrie is of Sumaderas, heir apparent to the family, even, until she was disowned. She clearly received a good education, has a high status just for being born to Sumaderas, and has to be a very fitting wife for Rudolf in Kinzo's eyes, knowing how he got Natsuhi for Krauss -- he essentially exchanged money for prestige.
  3. Sumaderas were furious at Kyrie getting pregnant out of marriage, and there's hints in the text they would kill her for this but they didn't. Ange thinks an under the carpet deal was involved. Let's assume it was.
  4. Rudolf was very probably not powerful and influential enough at the time to broker that deal himself -- he probably isn't even now. Only Kinzo could do it.
  5. One would expect that Kinzo would be very mad at Rudolf that he married Asumu instead, as this goes against his social interest (prestige for the family) and business interest (he surely had to part with something valuable to pay Sumaderas off enough for this affront).
  6. Rudolf clearly loved Kyrie more. Otherwise, Battler's protest at remarrying Kyrie after Asumu's death would surely delay him if not stop him outright. It wouldn't really hurt him to wait a few more months if that meant Battler wouldn't just leave in protest, apparently, he very seriously wanted Ange to be a child born in wedlock. Kyrie also reports that Rudolf never failed to come to her aid even when he was married.
  7. Therefore, it was Kinzo's idea that Rudolf has to marry Asumu rather than Kyrie. And Kinzo's plan also necessarily involved Kyrie staying alive and around. If Kinzo wanted Rudolf to marry Asumu but not keep Kyrie around, Kyrie would be left to her own devices and probably die. If Kinzo wanted to keep Kyrie around but did not want Rudolf to marry Asumu, Rudolf would marry Kyrie and the problem with Sumaderas wouldn't exist, it would be cheaper for Kinzo and more beneficial.

Kinzo basically gave up both prestige and money to get something that he could only get through Asumu. Now the question is, what the heck it could be?
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"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
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This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
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Old 2010-06-29, 16:44   Link #12099
Judoh
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Well I don't think your giving Kyrie enough credit. She was to be the head of the Sumaderas at the time. I think she could have prepared something to get her out of trouble if she got caught. Like maybe she got the branch family's support since there seems to be fighting going on amongst them about her. We don't really know how the hierarchy of the Sumaderas works, but it seems to be a matriarchy.

Quote:
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Kinzo basically gave up both prestige and money to get something that he could only get through Asumu. Now the question is, what the heck it could be?
You think Kinzo would have anything to gain from Rudolf having two sons? One of them being secret I guess?
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Old 2010-06-29, 16:44   Link #12100
delita-umw-
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I'm not actually sure that Kinzo's plan would necessitate Kyrie staying alive in the manner you're suggesting. I always believed that Kinzo wanted Rudolf to marry Asumu and one of the conditions that Rudolf stacked on for agreeing would be to save Kyrie from the Sumadera. It still leaves why would Asumu be Kinzo's choice but...iono

edit: a thought, maybe Kinzo's decision to choose Asumu could have been a humbling condition put on Rudolf to keep him under his thumb? Like maybe Kinzo has some other wife lined up for Rudolf but he spurns that in favor of Kyrie. And when he comes to Kinzo for help, Kinzo forces him to marry a commoner who he doesn't love/know(?) in exchange?
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