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Old 2010-06-29, 16:46   Link #12101
Leafsnail
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Perhaps he's reluctant to hand the headship through Eva (who was apparently "disinherited") but still wants a male heir?
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Old 2010-06-29, 16:55   Link #12102
Leafsnail
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Hence the thing about Eva... if he thinks that Eva is no longer a part of the family (since he thinks she should have married out) he probably wouldn't recognise George as a valid heir.
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Old 2010-06-29, 16:58   Link #12103
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Hence the thing about Eva... if he thinks that Eva is no longer a part of the family (since he thinks she should have married out) he probably wouldn't recognise George as a valid heir.
He didn't think that though. Since Kinzo allowed her and Hideyoshi to keep the Ushiromiya name as long as she had a son before Natsuhi did. That was the first backroom deal with Kinzo we were shown.
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:03   Link #12104
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well I don't think your giving Kyrie enough credit. She was to be the head of the Sumaderas at the time. I think she could have prepared something to get her out of trouble if she got caught. Like maybe she got the branch family's support since there seems to be fighting going on amongst them about her.
Not impossible. Ange may be mistaken and Kyrie could have gotten out of this somehow on her own. But then, what information do we have left?

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
We don't really know how the hierarchy of the Sumaderas works, but it seems to be a matriarchy.
Not really it isn't, the text is quite clear.

Quote:
To the outside world, women of the Sumadera family were trained to be in a position to support and defer to men.
...But in actuality, a strong leadership was demanded of them so that they could manage all of the common people.
A role literally as a landlady was demanded of them.
Managing the Sumadera family with all its traditions was not something that could be accomplished with just an ordinary level of dignity.
It was an unimaginably heavy responsibility.
Emphasis mine. It's not a matriarchy, but neither it is a patriarchy, it's a power division structure. Women are the internal affairs and property managers, men get the foreign affairs and "active" business ventures. Women are basically there to run all that the men happen to grab.

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You think Kinzo would have anything to gain from Rudolf having two sons? One of them being secret I guess?
That is one possible conclusion, but what? That continuation of this chain of thought only works if Kinzo needed both grandchildren, and one of them would necessarily have to stay secret. If he just needed a grandchild from Asumu, there's no need to care about Kyrie. If he needed a grandchild from Kyrie, there's no need to make Rudolf marry Asumu. If he needed Kyrie's child raised by Asumu, there's also not much need to care about Kyrie.

Just what kind of a situation would demand a secret child of Rudolf's? Getting us to doubt the red?! Probably not.

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Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
I always believed that Kinzo wanted Rudolf to marry Asumu and one of the conditions that Rudolf stacked on for agreeing would be to save Kyrie from the Sumadera. It still leaves why would Asumu be Kinzo's choice but...iono
Rudolf bargaining for Kyrie is actually possible, but it's... well, it's a very expensive bargain for Kinzo who is apparently normally not inclined to give in to his children's demands at all.

That Asumu's child ends up very expensive, and Rudolf swapping the babies becomes an act of monumental defiance.

I'm actually not sure which of the variants is more interesting, Kinzo wanting Asumu's baby and Rudolf bargaining for Kyrie, or Kinzo needing both babies. Unfortunately I don't see where either would lead, as I can see no reason for Kinzo to think that Asumu would produce any kind of specific heir for him.

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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Perhaps he's reluctant to hand the headship through Eva (who was apparently "disinherited") but still wants a male heir?
But how would he know the child would actually be male? All of that mess was concluded before the children were born as far as I can see.
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:03   Link #12105
Leafsnail
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Uh... when was the backroom deal shown, again?

And I was thinking he was hoping Rudolf would have 2 children in order to hedge his bets, or something.
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:05   Link #12106
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Uh... when was that, again?
They talk about it in episode 1 before the second twilight, and it's shown in the pregame scenes in EP2. I think it's also briefly mentioned in EP3.
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:06   Link #12107
Oliver
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Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
a thought, maybe Kinzo's decision to choose Asumu could have been a humbling condition put on Rudolf to keep him under his thumb? Like maybe Kinzo has some other wife lined up for Rudolf but he spurns that in favor of Kyrie. And when he comes to Kinzo for help, Kinzo forces him to marry a commoner who he doesn't love/know(?) in exchange?
That, actually, sort of works...

...but has the same problem, it's a very expensive way to humble Rudolf, is it really worth it when you can just smack him with a stick for a few weeks?
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:07   Link #12108
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
And I was thinking he was hoping Rudolf would have 2 children in order to hedge his bets, or something.
Now that would be silly, he could just tell him to make more with the same woman until it works.
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:11   Link #12109
delita-umw-
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I dunno. I agree its an expensive method, but it's Kinzo, he apparently has the money to buy Krauss a trophy wife no problem. Is he described in his madness at that point in time yet?

edit: actually, if there's any sibling who I would believe would be defiant to Kinzo, it'd be Rudolf. I can't really back up the opinion at the moment with text, but maybe it's his attitude? If you consider that and Kinzo's huge ego and self-importance, I'd have Lord Goldsmith kill an Ushiromiya =P
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:13   Link #12110
Leafsnail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Now that would be silly, he could just tell him to make more with the same woman until it works.
But considering he's a "magician of numbers", maybe something tells him if he does two 50/50 decisions at the same time, one of them will come up positive...
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:17   Link #12111
delita-umw-
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And tying in with the magician of numbers thing he could do it so that he could double the possible births in a shorter amount of time. The whole make more babies with the same woman works unless you believe he's short on time, which I would assume he is. Babies can only be born so fast and having two women to bear children would speed that up.
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:19   Link #12112
Oliver
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Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
I dunno. I agree its an expensive method, but it's Kinzo, he apparently has the money to buy Krauss a trophy wife no problem. Is he described in his madness at that point in time yet?
Not certain. There's no dates on any mentions of Kinzo's madness.

Though, I think I have a possible idea why Asumu was so crucial... It's very far-fetched though, but sort of plausible.

Asumu was not, in fact, pregnant from Rudolf. She was pregnant from Kinzo!

Kinzo's wife was still alive at the time, because everyone, including Battler, remembers her. Kinzo wanted to have the child in the family, but for the sake of appearances and prestige could not just shut his wife up about this. So he forced Rudolf to marry Asumu and claim the child as his. Rudolf's condition was saving Kyrie from Sumaderas by paying them off, and Kinzo grudgingly accepted. Kinzo's plan was to declare the child his heir after all the other children failed to live up to his expectations.

But then Rudolf won anyway - because he swapped the babies in the hospital and raised Kyrie's child like he initially wanted!

Rudolf's fear of being killed reported in the first game is because he is worried that this wish of Kinzo will actually be made known!
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:27   Link #12113
delita-umw-
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Mmm, I had thought of Asumu being a secret wife for Kinzo but I changed my mind when I thought about her spending so much time with Rudolf. But if she just bore Kinzo's child, that could make some sense. Also, I'm not sure about this but doesn't Battler initially have a very different impression of Kinzo than the other cousins? If he had preferential treatment from Kinzo, it would support that idea, which I'll research a little later. It would ALSO explain why in the magic scenes Kinzo is always so upset with Battler: he should be the one true heir and yet he abandoned the family.

edit: mmm interesting thought: maybe Asumu bearing Kinzo's child would make it why Battler HAD to be switched and both wives would be kept in the dark about Battler's true origins. What if Kinzo's child dies as a still birth and so Rudolph keeps up appearances by switching in Battler, all this confusion about stillbirth/miscarriages aside.
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:32   Link #12114
Leafsnail
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He's also supposed to resemble and remind Beatrice a lot of young Kinzo... in addition to apparently sharing the "anti-magic" toxin to a great degree. Hm... actually that seems like a very interesting theory.

On the other hand, he is Kinzo's grandson... right?
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:32   Link #12115
Oliver
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Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
It would ALSO explain why in the magic scenes Kinzo is always so upset with Battler: he should be the one true heir and yet he abandoned the family.
Precisely. Because here's what logically follows:

Battler's sin is actually breaking a promise which required him to become the head of the family to fullfill -- whom the promise was actually made to, does not matter, as it has no bearing on the consequences. The promise was failed at the moment he left the Ushiromiya family register six years ago, which is when the sin was actually committed, probably, long time after the promise was first made.

It made Kinzo disillusioned with his last hope for a fitting heir, and lead to the creation of "Beatrice" by Kinzo, because Kinzo needed a fitting executor for his twisted will. People die "because of Battler's sin", but it's him not staying around to become Kinzo's legit heir that is the real cause, and not the promise to a girl who took it so personally.
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:34   Link #12116
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
On the other hand, he is Kinzo's grandson... right?
Well, he is pretty definitely Kyrie's child, since Ange is his little sister and Rudolf is his father, so yes he is. Kinzo thought he was his own fifth child, though.

But Rudolf swapped the babies on Kinzo and won.
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"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:40   Link #12117
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Which means that... Battler 2 is the true heir to the Ushiromiya family?

Ah, I see now.
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:41   Link #12118
TTR
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# ここは1967年の世界。
# 1967年の六軒島の隠し屋敷に、人間としてのベアトリーチェさまが存在した
# 間違いなく死んでいる!


This is the world of 1967.
In 1967 on Rokkenjima hidden estate, a human Beatrice existed.
She is dead without a doubt!

Beatrice existed before Battler was even born :/
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:41   Link #12119
delita-umw-
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Actually if it's true, that means we can finally kill Battler 2
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Old 2010-06-29, 17:43   Link #12120
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Sorry to change the subject in here but...I was reading EP2 again...and Battler can't read the inscription near the chapel. He need someone to read it
AND ! there is some weird thing in here :
Spoiler for big:
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