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Old 2010-06-29, 19:00   Link #12141
Renall
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If Meta-Battler isn't "Kinzo's grandchild," then sure, she can be referring to a game on the actual board. That would perhaps set up some kind of Shannon/Kanon Beatrice/"Battler" conflict... though we don't actually know which is which (thanks, "grandchild"), or which one is the evil one.
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Old 2010-06-29, 19:12   Link #12142
Oliver
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If...
  • Kinzo is the father of Beatrice-2
  • Beatrice-2 is Asumu
  • The child of Kinzo+Asumu is the Other Battler

...then Meta-Beatrice can say that she opened the game-on-the-board to fight the Other Battler, who is both grandchild and child of Kinzo, stranger things have been proposed seriously before. Though it still leaves a few holes...
  • How did the Other Battler end up given up for adoption? Kyrie would never do that to the child she necessarily thought was from Rudolf.
  • If Kinzo found out and brought the child in as a servant/maid, why didn't he confront Rudolf about it?
  • If Kinzo didn't find out and the child is brought in as a coincidence, why are there no musical numbers as befitting a vaudeville?
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Old 2010-06-29, 19:16   Link #12143
Renall
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Kinzo doesn't have to be the father of the Other Battler. One, it's icky. Two, there just needs to be one person of Kinzo's descent. In fact, the other parent of the grandchild might have quite a lot of power.

Also Beatrice-2 = Asumu would seem to make quite a liar out of Rosa, or else she grossly misinterpreted the situation.
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Old 2010-06-29, 19:20   Link #12144
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Actually, do we have it that This Battler is Kinzo's grandchild in red? Sure, Beatrice may say that she have started the game to fight .... wait.
These two reds were spoken together so I think that's what it's supposed to mean. Do with it what you will.

And I opened this game in order to fight Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandchild Ushiromiya Battler.

Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu.

We could also take her Blues into account too I suppose.

Quote:
Due to the previous demand to repeat, and the subsequent refusal, I proclaim that you are not qualified to be my opponent. After all, Beatrice opened this game, in order to fight with 'Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandson Ushiromiya Battler'. This gave you responsibility as my opponent, to declare in red that you are 'Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandson Ushiromiya Battler'. You have refused to repeat that. This means the loss of your qualifications.
Quote:
People's names are not exclusive. There is a possibility that multiple humans have the name Ushiromiya Battler. In short, this is what it means. ......You are a different person with the same first and last names as Ushiromiya Asumu's son Ushiromiya Battler.
Quote:
What if Beatrice refers to a different game? Not the one about solving murders... about committing murders?
What are you suggesting here exactly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
...then Meta-Beatrice can say that she opened the game-on-the-board to fight the Other Battler, who is both grandchild and child of Kinzo, stranger things have been proposed seriously before. Though it still leaves a few holes...
One thing that needs to be explained with this is who is Asumu's family exactly? And why would she be living in the Kuwadorian for so long without them knowing?
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Old 2010-06-29, 19:23   Link #12145
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Kinzo doesn't have to be the father of the Other Battler. One, it's icky. Two, there just needs to be one person of Kinzo's descent. In fact, the other parent of the grandchild might have quite a lot of power.
Ok, but who? We have no record of any contact between Asumu and anyone else beside Rudolf and Kyrie, Asumu's offscreen family would be silly, which only leaves Rudolf, doesn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Also Beatrice-2 = Asumu would seem to make quite a liar out of Rosa, or else she grossly misinterpreted the situation.
Actually, it depends mostly on how the timing of the red relates to the timing of the scenes shown.

If the timing of the red strictly corresponds to the timing of the scene shown on screen, regardless of whether they're shown in correct temporal order or not, then both Kinzo is dead before the 1985 conference and Beatrice-2 is dead when seen, i.e. in 1967-68. Then Asumu cannot possibly be Beatrice-2, and then there is probably no way to connect them.

If the flashback scenes are exempt, then Rosa may have misinterpreted what was shown and Asumu is dead six years ago anyway, so the red fits.

I'm not sure which to pick.
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Old 2010-06-29, 19:25   Link #12146
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
What are you suggesting here exactly?
That the "game to fight Ushiromiya Kinzo's granchild, Ushiromiya Battler" is not the one she is playing against Meta-Battler, but the one that unfolds on the game board itself, where onboard team-Beatrice is trying to prevent the Other Battler from reaching some goal. (solving the epitaph, grabbing the inheritance, killing everyone...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
One thing that needs to be explained with this is who is Asumu's family exactly? And why would she be living in the Kuwadorian for so long without them knowing?
Well, just what do we know about them anyway?
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Old 2010-06-29, 19:27   Link #12147
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We don't even know how specifically Rudolf and Asumu met, or... well, anything about Asumu. At all.
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Old 2010-06-29, 19:28   Link #12148
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Well, just what do we know about them anyway?
Only that, save for Rudolf, all of his potential guardians died one by one before he returned. So even if he didn't return he didn't have anyone to take care of him really if he didn't do it. I've often thought that was the only reason he returned to the family register at all.
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Old 2010-06-29, 19:39   Link #12149
Oliver
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Side thought: Beatrice's blue makes no sense when taken together with her subsequent lines.

Reasoning: She says, in white, that "the true Ushiromiya Battler did not commit a sin". It follows that if anyone has committed it at all, it has to be someone else.

Then why ask This Battler about it at all, if she is supposed to initially believe he is the "true Ushiromia Battler", and thus could not have committed the sin?
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Old 2010-06-29, 19:40   Link #12150
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Man, Kinzo does come out as pretty sick if this theory is true >.>
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Old 2010-06-29, 19:42   Link #12151
Judoh
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Well if we beleive what Kyrie says it was Asumu who cornered Rudolf and forced him to engage her not Kinzo and not Kyrie. In fact she says "I was the one who was going out with Rudolf since the beginning... Asumu shewdly cut between us... and shrewdly got pregnant".

Actually Asumu from Kyrie's perspective seems like the opposite of What Ssol describes of her in his theory. If we beleive what Kyrie says Rudolf was cheating with Asumu not the other way around. He could've met her in a bar or something. Asumu just sounds like a typical gold digger.
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Old 2010-06-29, 19:48   Link #12152
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well if we beleive what Kyrie says it was Asumu who cornered Rudolf and forced him to engage her not Kinzo and not Kyrie. In fact she says "I was the one who was going out with Rudolf since the beginning... Asumu shewdly cut between us... and shrewdly got pregnant".
Well, if Asumu really "shrewdly got pregnant" and that was enough,
  • How did Rudolf get Kinzo to pay for this mistake and save Kyrie?
  • How do we explain that he kept coming to her aid while married to Asumu?
  • How do we explain the rush to marry Kyrie?

It is quite possible that Kyrie simply doesn't know some things.
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Old 2010-06-29, 19:50   Link #12153
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Man, Kinzo does come out as pretty sick if this theory is true >.>
That's the other side of being legendary. If nobody can put anything past you, epic depravities and crimes are just as much fair game to become stories told about you as feats of daring and epic pranks.
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Old 2010-06-29, 19:50   Link #12154
delita-umw-
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I dunno Judoh. I'm not particularly familiar with the technology of 1986 nor marriage customs nor laws, but I feel like Rudolph wouldn't bother marrying her without some sort of pressure from someone like Kinzo.
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Old 2010-06-29, 19:54   Link #12155
Leafsnail
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I suppose he did keep someone who was probably his daughter in Kuwadorian for quite a while... and he did try to get her to accept him (confirmed in red by Ronove). Which is... odd.
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:09   Link #12156
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Well, if Asumu really "shrewdly got pregnant" and that was enough,
  • How did Rudolf get Kinzo to pay for this mistake and save Kyrie?
  • How do we explain that he kept coming to her aid while married to Asumu?
  • How do we explain the rush to marry Kyrie?

It is quite possible that Kyrie simply doesn't know some things.
  1. We don't really know that Kinzo was involved in covering for her for Rudolf it seems like the best solution to the problem, but I don't see any thought process that says Saving Kyrie for Rudolf = something good for Kinzo. He may just do it reluctantly.
  2. If what Kyrie says is true they were going out for a long time before he met Asumu so odds are they had met and were friends before that. We don't know how Kyrie and Rudolf met either really. I personally think that statement says he was a lot closer to her than Asumu. If he married Asumu because of pressure from her pregancy he could still aid Kyrie financially and in fact he'd have to be prepared to do that anyway if she really was due to give birth on the same day. He'd have to pay some kind of child support.
  3. We could explain that simply with Ange was born or that he just loved her more. There isn't really much to that decision
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:10   Link #12157
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
If...
  • Kinzo is the father of Beatrice-2
  • Beatrice-2 is Asumu
  • The child of Kinzo+Asumu is the Other Battler
This works entirely too well. Did you guys just solve Umineko again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
If the timing of the red strictly corresponds to the timing of the scene shown on screen, regardless of whether they're shown in correct temporal order or not, then both Kinzo is dead before the 1985 conference and Beatrice-2 is dead when seen, i.e. in 1967-68.
The red regarding Beatrice-2's death isn't given any sort of timing indication. All we're told is that she is definitely dead.

She could have died at any point in time before 1986.
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:13   Link #12158
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Two seconds after Rosa's flashback ends, Beatrice gets up, rubs her head, and is like "Damn, that hurt. Oh man Rosa you look aghast. What, did you think I died or something? My amazing hair bun saved me."
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:13   Link #12159
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
We don't really know that Kinzo was involved in covering for Rudolf it seems like the best solution to the problem, but I don't see any thought process that says Saving Kyrie for Rudolf = something good for Kinzo. He may just do it reluctantly.
Saving Kyrie from Sumaderas has to be something bad for Kinzo. He is basically paying a harsh, traditional family for not doing something which they consider their internal business. I can't think that this would come cheap.

And if it didn't come cheap, something good has to come out of it in return, otherwise why do it? Compassion for Rudolf? Seriously?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I personally think that says he was a lot closer to her than Asumu.
...
He'd have to pay some kind of child support.
Well, if he had to have been prepared to pay for child support in either case, why the heck pick the woman he is clearly not closer to, especially if this possibly involves asking his father for reluctant help?
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:16   Link #12160
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Two seconds after Rosa's flashback ends, Beatrice gets up, rubs her head, and is like "Damn, that hurt. Oh man Rosa you look aghast. What, did you think I died or something? My amazing hair bun saved me."
20 years is a long time and memories are inherently unreliable. Rosa may have simply ran away, believing for the rest of her life that she was responsible for Beatrice's death.
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