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Old 2010-06-29, 20:19   Link #12161
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
20 years is a long time and memories are inherently unreliable. Rosa may have simply ran away, believing for the rest of her life that she was responsible for Beatrice's death.
So Kinzo locked her in a cage, Rosa thought she killed her, and Kyrie wanted to kill her?

You know what? I think murdering that entire family is completely justified.
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:20   Link #12162
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
This works entirely too well. Did you guys just solve Umineko again?
Actually, I'm pretty sure the connection between Beatrice-2 and Asumu was suggested sometime prior in this very thread or thereabouts.

What I think is new or at least relatively new is the idea that Kinzo forces Rudolf to marry Asumu rather than Kyrie and Rudolf's baby swapping is his grandest act of defiance ever. With Kinzo being the father of Asumu's child it does work out well, regardless of whether Asumu is Beatrice-2 or not.

The problem is imagining the situation in which Kinzo would be such a father, as this is where the logical chain runs out of hints to step on because we know next to nothing about her.

...wait.

Fall fall faaall!!!!

What if it's not a fear of vehicles as such, but a fear of falling down like Beatrice-2 did in Rosa's story?
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:22   Link #12163
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Saving Kyrie from Sumaderas has to be something bad for Kinzo. He is basically paying a harsh, traditional family for not doing something which they consider their internal business. I can't think that this would come cheap.

And if it didn't come cheap, something good has to come out of it in return, otherwise why do it? Compassion for Rudolf? Seriously?
Well like I said earlier I think your not giving Kyrie enough credit. And for the same reasons I think it's just out of character for Kinzo to give Rudolf money at all unless he thought it was for something else. Saving Kyrie from anything just sounds like he's sending money to his competitors. Other than Kyrie's Battler who will be born later Kinzo really has nothing to gain from it.

EDIT: In fact I think Kinzo would leave Kyrie to die I'm not kidding.
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:22   Link #12164
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You know what? I think murdering that entire family is completely justified.
I'm afraid I'm starting to agree.
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:22   Link #12165
delita-umw-
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While we can't be certain that Kinzo was involved in saving Kyrie, what else really makes sense? Kyrie clearly can't save herself cause she dodges out of an arranged marriage and has a child out of wedlock. They've also said they'd kill her and I doubt they'd be willing to stop that without getting something in exchange or they wouldn't be willing to kill her in the first place. Rudolph clearly couldn't save her himself or he would have just married Kyrie. The only thing that makes sense to me is Kinzo was somehow involved, either in order to humiliate Rudolph or in exchange for him hiding the 5th heir.
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:30   Link #12166
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I'd like to point out there's some serious inbreeding going on if this is the case. I mean, Asumu/ Beatrice would be Battler's aunt AND mother. Or someone's aunt and mother. Even worse if Kinzo is the father >.>

Although... wouldn't Battler wonder why the portrait in the mansion looks so much like his "mother"?
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:31   Link #12167
Judoh
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Rudolf not saving Kyrie would make this statement really weird... I don't get why he married Asumu either though. The author needs to clear this up.

Spoiler for hey it's that white horse again:
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:32   Link #12168
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Fall fall faaall!!!!

What if it's not a fear of vehicles as such, but a fear of falling down like Beatrice-2 did in Rosa's story?
ARGH THIS WORKS TOO WELL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You know what? I think murdering that entire family is completely justified.
The only problem is that Beatrice (presumably Beatrice-3) isn't committing the murders for revenge... otherwise, it's perfect.

Unless someone is killing everyone else on her behalf...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Although... wouldn't Battler wonder why the portrait in the mansion looks so much like his "mother"?
He hasn't seen Asumu in six years and she (presumably) wouldn't have dressed like that around him.
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:32   Link #12169
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One small problem with the whole Beatrice-2 thing... if Beatrice-2 wound up married to somebody, wouldn't everyone's reaction to the portrait be "Dang, that looks kinda like that lady in the family?"

I mean you'd figure you couldn't really change your appearance that much, could you? Especially if you're a woman with rather distinct western features.

EDIT: Unless you jumped into a closet every time anyone was about to look at you, thus foiling them invariably.
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:35   Link #12170
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
One small problem with the whole Beatrice-2 thing... if Beatrice-2 wound up married to somebody, wouldn't everyone's reaction to the portrait be "Dang, that looks kinda like that lady in the family?"
As above, easily the most distinct things about Beatrice are her clothes and her hair.

Both of those can be changed, and furthermore, the portrait only went up after Asumu's death...
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:38   Link #12171
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Maybe... the portrait is actually of Beatrice-1? Logically, Beatrice-2 would look slightly less western. Alternatively, Kinzo had the portrait painted with a mind to making Beatrice look western, considering his obsession. I mean, it's not like the painter actually had Beatrice in front of him, right?

This puts Rosa's testimony into doubt, but with the haziness of such a bizarre memory, she may well have seen a blonde woman and adjusted it later to fit the witch in the portrait.
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:38   Link #12172
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Err, I dunno if I'm being misunderstood here Judoh, but I didn't mean that I thought Rudolph didn't save Kyrie. To the contrary I believe that he had to have saved her or else scenes like that would make absolutely no sense. What I'm saying though is that I don't think Rudolph could have saved her on his own and therefore has help from Kinzo. Given also that even after helping Kyrie, he doesn't marry her, I can only assume that marrying Asumu was a condition for that help.
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:44   Link #12173
Oliver
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Oh yes, it fits.

Asumu is actually Beatrice-2, who survived the fall she sustained that Rosa witnessed. However, Asumu never completely recovered from it, and from then on, any opportunity to actually fall from any altitude, in particular from a moving vehicle, where such a fall is easy, would evoke fear in her, which Battler inherited through education.

Since no timing constraints on the statement of Beatrice-2 death in red are given, it does not contradict the red -- at the start of every game, Asumu is undeniably dead!


Quote:
Eva: "Battler-kun, why don't you come with your aunt on an overseas trip sometime soon? What about Europe? I'm sure you could manage a half-day trip on a plane. *giggle*giggle*giggle*!"
George: "...Stop it, Mother. I'm sure Battler-kun's dislike for vehicles is inherited."
Kyrie: "Oh, from Asumu-san?"
Rudolf: "...For some reason, she just couldn't handle vehicles and the like. Pretty much anything other than a bicycle or a car. Whenever we tried to go far away, that woman was so annoying with the 'no not this, no not that, I'm scared I'm scared, fall fall, gyaah gyaah'."
George: "Children are taught that things which their parents can't seem to handle are dangerous. I'm sure Battler-kun saw Asumu-san doing something like that and learned that vehicles are scary."
Kyrie: "*giggle*giggle*. Could it be Asumu-san's genes, I wonder?"
Rudolf: "Who knows. Those would be some pretty annoying genes. ...Stop talking about Asumu. Right now, the one who's here is you. Right?"
Kyrie: "...You're right, sorry."
Emphasis mine.

The biggest problem that remains now is the portrait, to which I don't really have a good answer... Rosa might have misidentified the portrait with Beatrice-2 she remembered, because she only saw her for a few hours twenty years ago and the portait is here, now, and invariably associated with Beatrice, but that would not explain why nobody identified the portrait with Asumu when only four years have passed since she finally died for good.

EDIT: Though come to think of it...

Remember "The Hound of the Baskervilles"?
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:44   Link #12174
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Maybe... the portrait is actually of Beatrice-1? Logically, Beatrice-2 would look slightly less western. Alternatively, Kinzo had the portrait painted with a mind to making Beatrice look western, considering his obsession. I mean, it's not like the painter actually had Beatrice in front of him, right?

This puts Rosa's testimony into doubt, but with the haziness of such a bizarre memory, she may well have seen a blonde woman and adjusted it later to fit the witch in the portrait.
That, regrettably, makes a whole lot of sense, and makes this silly theory a whole lot less silly. I can't tell whether I'm pleased or disappointed.
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:45   Link #12175
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Basically no one should recognize that Beatrice in the portrait unless they were in on some kind of secret, right?

Ok, so that statement isn't very useful... but what I mean to say is that because no one except Rosa expresses that they already recognize Beatrice from somewhere that most of the family, especially the siblings, do not know of her.

And that the other people who do not express anything but most likely know Beatrice must be covering it up. Kumasawa, Genji and Nanjo.

Which makes Rosa's behaviour strange and unique amongst the entire family. Since we've speculated that she's kind of secretly working for the servants, why would she expose this to the siblings?
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:47   Link #12176
Judoh
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Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
Err, I dunno if I'm being misunderstood here Judoh, but I didn't mean that I thought Rudolph didn't save Kyrie. To the contrary I believe that he had to have saved her or else scenes like that would make absolutely no sense. What I'm saying though is that I don't think Rudolph could have saved her on his own and therefore has help from Kinzo. Given also that even after helping Kyrie, he doesn't marry her, I can only assume that marrying Asumu was a condition for that help.
I kind of agree kind of don't. For one thing I think Kinzo preferring Asumu as a partner is a good explanation for the marriage, but I don't see what he would gain from him setting Rudolf up to marry Asumu to make that condition and I don't see what he would gain from helping Kyrie either.

Actually two possibilities I just thought of for the Asumu condition
  • Kinzo gained from that marriage by making Rudolf suffer rather than making money
  • OR (comedy theory) Kinzo likes blonde and busty girls just like Battler and Asumu fits that description
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:48   Link #12177
Renall
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Oh yes, it fits.

Asumu is actually Beatrice-2, who survived the fall she sustained that Rosa witnessed. However, Asumu never completely recovered from it, and from then on, any opportunity to actually fall from any altitude, in particular from a moving vehicle, where such a fall is easy, would evoke fear in her, which Battler inherited through education.

Since no timing constraints on the statement of Beatrice-2 death in red are given, it does not contradict the red -- at the start of every game, Asumu is undeniably dead!
And of course, Asumu's child is the true Ushiromiya Battler, who may or may not be Beatrice-3. Indeed, Beatrice-3 may have been created independently as a spiritual successor to Beatrice-1 in the portrait, while the true Battler seeks his or her birthright.
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-06-29, 20:51   Link #12178
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Ok, the "fall" thing is looking like a very convincing hint.

I'm beginning to think most of the crucial clues are slipped in before the reader is expected to be paying much attention. Y'know... time misdirection?
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:51   Link #12179
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Which makes Rosa's behaviour strange and unique amongst the entire family. Since we've speculated that she's kind of secretly working for the servants, why would she expose this to the siblings?
Part of the game, for example. Beatrice needs to be already dead to be terrifying.

Notice how Rudolf is actually the first one to provide a date, and he cites 20 years, and Rosa agrees, but Rosa cites 19 years every other time she refers to it since.
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Old 2010-06-29, 20:52   Link #12180
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So what's going on is two simultaneous games between Beatrice and both Battlers, one to stop the murders and one to solve the mysteries? Headaches galore...
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