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Old 2010-06-29, 20:52   Link #12181
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I'm beginning to think most of the crucial clues are slipped in before the reader is expected to be paying much attention. Y'know... time misdirection?
Reread value.
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Old 2010-06-29, 21:00   Link #12182
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
And of course, Asumu's child is the true Ushiromiya Battler, who may or may not be Beatrice-3. Indeed, Beatrice-3 may have been created independently as a spiritual successor to Beatrice-1 in the portrait, while the true Battler seeks his or her birthright.
Hmm... in that case, then perhaps either Kanon is Ushiromiya Battler and Shannon Beatrice-3, or vice-versa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I'm beginning to think most of the crucial clues are slipped in before the reader is expected to be paying much attention. Y'know... time misdirection?
Hell, every single major plot point so far has been set up in Ep1. No wonder it's so dense.
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Old 2010-06-29, 21:02   Link #12183
Oliver
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As a side note, only one of the two needs to be true but not both:
  • Krauss, Eva, Rudolf and Rosa are actually not Kinzo's children, but adopted. Kinzo is both the father and the grandfather of Asumu's child and the 'game' Meta-Beatrice have opened to fight "Ushiromiya Battler, Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandson" actually refers to events on the board, rather than events in the metaworld, and the Other Battler is present there anonymously. Meta-Battler is obviously not that person, but that is not a problem since Beatrice isn't actually fighting him in the first place, she wants him to solve everything.
  • Krauss, Eva, Rudolf and Rosa are actually Kinzo's biological children and Meta-Battler is actually Kinzo's grandson. The Other Battler is still Kinzo's child, but where Beatrice-2 (Asumu) came from remains unknown.

EDIT: Of course, there's also the variant where all of them are Kinzo's children including Asumu, but that's less fun.
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Old 2010-06-29, 21:08   Link #12184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
OR (comedy theory) Kinzo likes blonde and busty girls just like Battler and Asumu fits that description
That's not a comedy theory, that's actually another hint.

It is a tired and old adage (though not necessarily fact, but in fiction, those are just as good) that male children tend to prefer women that remind them of their mother.

Particularly if they had a warm relationship, which we know Battler did.
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Old 2010-06-29, 21:11   Link #12185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Reasoning: She says, in white, that "the true Ushiromiya Battler did not commit a sin". It follows that if anyone has committed it at all, it has to be someone else.
Wait, wait... do you have an exact quote for this? When was this said? I never noticed this before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
That's not a comedy theory, that's actually another hint.

It is a tired and old adage (though not necessarily fact, but in fiction, those are just as good) that male children tend to prefer women that remind them of their mother.

Particularly if they had a warm relationship, which we know Battler did.
If that's true though doesn't that basically guarantee that Jessica is the other Battler then?
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Old 2010-06-29, 21:19   Link #12186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Wait, wait... do you have an exact quote for this? When was this said? I never noticed this before
Right after her blue.

Quote:
Battler: "I, I am Ushiromiya Battler...! Because I can say that in red, I should be your opponent!!"
Beatrice: "It may be a fact that you have the name Ushiromiya Battler. However, People's names are not exclusive. There is a possibility that multiple humans have the name Ushiromiya Battler. In short, this is what it means. ...You are a different person with the same first and last names as Ushiromiya Asumu's son Ushiromiya Battler."
Battler: "Wh, ...what'd you say..?!! Don't talk so stupiiiiiiiiid!! I'm Mom's child!! Ushiromiya Asumu's child!! It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that, ah, ngagh, ...nnnggghh......!!! ...Gwah! Damn!! Why?! Why can't I say that I was born from my Mom?! How could something so stupid be true?"
Beatrice: "No need to suffer. I will not play. ...This is checkmate. You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son."
Battler: "...Wha, ... You're... kidding...me..."
Beatrice: "Who are you? What person calling themselves Ushiromiya Battler?"
Battler: "W, ...wait a second... ...I am, ...Ushiromiya Battler... It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that I was born, and I'm Dad's and Mom's son...!"
Beatrice: "No. There is no way that you are my opponent Ushiromiya Battler. With this as proof."
Battler: "Proof, you say?!"
Beatrice: "You do not know of that sin six years ago."
Battler: "...Uh, ...th, that's..."
Beatrice: "No, the true Ushiromiya Battler did not commit a sin. But as a result, a sin occurred, the span of six years became a blank space, and a man who knew nothing of that time took the name Ushiromiya Battler and appeared on Rokkenjima. ...That truth...goes like this. Six years ago, ...my opponent, the true Ushiromiya Battler, was already dead. You were involved in a plot by Rudolf having something to do with distribution of the inheritance...a body double set up in Ushiromiya Battler's place."
Emphasis mine.
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Old 2010-06-29, 21:24   Link #12187
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
If that's true though doesn't that basically guarantee that Jessica is the other Battler then?
It might. It would also let us deduce the sin clearly.

My only serious complaint about the Other Battler being around is that I can't imagine Kyrie knowingly putting up a child from Rudolf for adoption, or, for that matter, that child randomly ending up in the family without Kinzo knowing and wreaking havoc on the entire family right back then when it had to have happened.

The first problem can be solved if the one who put the extra child for adoption is Rudolf himself, not having it in his heart to actually kill it, but not actually caring that Kinzo's child would survive.

The second pro... hmmm.

...Wouldn't that be right around the time when Natsuhi was unsuccessfully trying to get pregnant from Krauss? With Krauss being the potential cause?
Wouldn't it make a lot of sense for Rudolf to hand the extra baby over to Krauss to solve this problem, without ever telling him where did it come from? Krauss would owe him big time then.

EDIT: Rudolf actually won Umineko posthumously if this is true.
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Old 2010-06-29, 21:28   Link #12188
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Emphasis mine.
I'm certain Beatrice is just bullshitting there in an effort to erase Battler, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
...Wouldn't that be right around the time when Natsuhi was unsuccessfully trying to get pregnant from Krauss? With Krauss being the potential cause?
Wouldn't it make a lot of sense for Rudolf to hand the extra baby over to Krauss to solve this problem, without ever telling him where did it come from? Krauss would owe him big time then.
But then what about the Baby from 19 Years Ago?
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Old 2010-06-29, 21:34   Link #12189
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I'm certain Beatrice is just bullshitting there in an effort to erase Battler, though.
Very probably. It's just silly to me that Battler doesn't notice she actually contradicts herself, but then again, he is too shocked to notice.
But Ange could have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
But then what about the Baby from 19 Years Ago?
  • Variant 1: Natsuhi's false memory. She wanted to get rid of the baby and blamed herself for this desire. She obviously couldn't do anything of the sort, so she imagined that she killed the 'wrong' one and gave birth to her own one as a self-defence mechanism. Various silly impossibilities in her story, like the complete absence of Kinzo's wife even though she was alive at the time, are hints to this.
  • Variant 2: This was Kinzo's unsuccessful attempt to create Beatrice-3. It failed. He finally resorted to incest after it did, and 9 months later Jessica and Battler were born.
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Old 2010-06-29, 21:42   Link #12190
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
  • Variant 1: Natsuhi's false memory. She wanted to get rid of the baby and blamed herself for this desire. She obviously couldn't do anything of the sort, so she imagined that she killed the 'wrong' one and gave birth to her own one as a self-defence mechanism. Various silly impossibilities in her story, like the complete absence of Kinzo's wife even though she was alive at the time, are hints to this.
  • Variant 2: This was Kinzo's unsuccessful attempt to create Beatrice-3. It failed. He finally resorted to incest after it did, and 9 months later Jessica and Battler were born.
Variant 1 is FAR more interesting, if you ask me, as it means that the person claiming to be the Man from 19 Years ago has probably read Natsuhi's diaries.
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Old 2010-06-29, 21:46   Link #12191
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Variant 1 is FAR more interesting, if you ask me, as it means that the person claiming to be the Man from 19 Years ago has probably read Natsuhi's diaries.
He needs access to her room to be able to place the cards anyway.

In fact, that would point this at Jessica -- not that she has a master key or Natsuhi Room key, but she could ask Shannon for hers, and the desire to rummage through your mother's dresser is perfectly natural for a girl. And the diaries locked away would be one of the greatest treasures she can find in this manner.
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Old 2010-06-29, 21:49   Link #12192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Variant 1 is FAR more interesting, if you ask me, as it means that the person claiming to be the Man from 19 Years ago has probably read Natsuhi's diaries.
How did that happen?

Well I can see two ways for that to work.
  • Somebody snuck into her room and read her diaries. Either at a previous conference, or it was Jessica or one of the servants.
  • Kakera theory: Somebody has memories of the things they saw in Natsuhi's room in episode 2
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Old 2010-06-29, 21:56   Link #12193
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Kakera theory: Somebody has memories of the things they saw in Natsuhi's room in episode 2
That would actually be cool, considering that this is the episode when Natsuhi actually uses red.

Then TMF19YA can also be George, Shannon... and Gohda.
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Old 2010-06-29, 21:58   Link #12194
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
In fact, that would point this at Jessica -- not that she has a master key or Natsuhi Room key, but she could ask Shannon for hers, and the desire to rummage through your mother's dresser is perfectly natural for a girl. And the diaries locked away would be one of the greatest treasures she can find in this manner.
It might even point Jessica towards discovering her true identity.

But, ah, small question: Does Jessica use "boku" or "watashi"?
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:03   Link #12195
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
That would actually be cool, considering that this is the episode when Natsuhi actually uses red.

Then TMF19YA can also be George, Shannon... and Gohda.
Gohdatrice is a go... hda.
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:05   Link #12196
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It might even point Jessica towards discovering her true identity.

But, ah, small question: Does Jessica use "boku" or "watashi"?
I know George uses boku. I don't remember what Jessica uses.
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:06   Link #12197
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
But, ah, small question: Does Jessica use "boku" or "watashi"?
Both. In some phrases she uses a corrupted "watashi", in others, she uses "boku".
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:17   Link #12198
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Both. In some phrases she uses a corrupted "watashi", in others, she uses "boku".
Ah, thanks. This could indeed point to her being the 'Man' from 19 Years Ago... and her death certainly isn't confirmed until long after 'his' final phone call.
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:19   Link #12199
Judoh
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Added support for Beatrice 2 = Asumu

She is definitely dead

No one escapes, all die.

Eva died in 1998 even though the red says "nobody escapes" via Battler's sin. So it is kind of likely that there is no time restriction and that Asumu died later without it being just silly "FALL FALL FALL!!!" antics
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Old 2010-06-29, 22:22   Link #12200
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Eva died in 1998 even though the red says "nobody escapes" via Battler's sin. So it is kind of likely that there is no time restriction and that Asumu died later without it being just silly "FALL FALL FALL!!!" antics
I'd still put my money on her death being due to a fall, though.

Maybe even off the same cliff...
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