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Old 2010-07-05, 22:07   Link #2281
Jan-Poo
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I have a problem with a Beatrice disguise not existing. We have seen Battler seeing Beatrice and we have a red claiming that he was the detective in Ep1-4 and another red claiming that the detective cannot falsify is pov.
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:10   Link #2282
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I have a problem with a Beatrice disguise not existing. We have seen Battler seeing Beatrice and we have a red claiming that he was the detective in Ep1-4 and another red claiming that the detective cannot falsify is pov.
Well then if it helps any he only saw it once so a disguise was only used once. It hasn't once appeared in any of the core arcs. So I'm thinking a Beatrice disguise is not one of the "core truths".
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:11   Link #2283
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If I may....

The main issue with Shkanon, to me, has always been not just how it affects Shannon, Kano, and the culprit, but moreso how it affects others. It means that the vast majority of the servants are in on the murder conspiracy. That is fine, I can accept that, they all have need for money or in Genji's case, loyalty.

Let's look at Natsuhi, Krauss, and George, other people who are involved with Shannon, Kanon, or both. In Natsuhi's case, she's delusional and haughty, so I can see why she wouldn't understand. I don't particularly LIKE the idea, but I can SEE it. Same with Krauss. With George, either he doesn't know, which I can ACCEPT because he doesn't hang with Kanon too much, but I don't quite like it. The other possibility is that he's a psycho supporter of Sayo, which could make sense given his yandere scenes, and I can ACCEPT that too.

But my BIGGEST issue is the whole "Jessica Paradox". Shkanon much like all other truths in Umineko operates under the idea that fantasy scenes are not just Schrodinger's Box, but rather a metaphor for what happened. And I must admit, Shannon and Kanon's furniture talk along with their death scenes make a convincing case that they are craazy and part of Beatrice. But here is where things get uneasy for me. I've explained why the servants might be in on it, and I've admitted that Krauss, Natsuhi, and even George might be ignorant of Shkanon. The final straw is Jessica.

We can't pick and choose characterization scenes, and thus far Jessica has shown herself to be someone who is very close to Shannon and Kanon, and even more than that, a person of upstanding character who draws the line at killing people. If one makes the argument that she is simply not aware of Shannon being Kanon, well, in addition to common sense(mainly that someone who is best friends and close with two people who are one and the same for at least three years prior to a murder mystery), that also destroys everything that shows her being close to Shannon and Kanon. So one possible conclusion is that Jessica is aiding Sayo as an accomplice. The issue with that however is that it ALSO flies in the face of her characterization. Jessica would never aid in murders for any reason, even for love.

So, in a nutshell, Shkanontrice bothers me simply because it will inevitably completely deny Jessica's character, one way or the other. It stretches common sense with everyone else, but with Jessica particularly, it just can't work.

Shannontrice and/or Kanontrice works just as well, and it doesn't have this very troubling problem associated with it.

Last edited by Sentou; 2010-07-05 at 22:14. Reason: mixed up Gohda with Natsuhi
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:12   Link #2284
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Well then if it helps any he only saw it once so a disguise was only used once. It hasn't once appeared in any of the core arcs. So I'm thinking a Beatrice disguise is not one of the "core truths".
I hasn't appeared in all of the fantasy arcs, either. Matter of fact, there is only one completed core arc so we do not have a big enough sample to determine that, yet.

@Sentou: How about this solution. Jessica doesn't know? We are not talking about the smartest child in the family here.
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:15   Link #2285
Judoh
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I hasn't appeared in all of the fantasy arcs
What's a fantasy arc?

All I know of are question arcs (1-4), and core arcs (chiru)
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:20   Link #2286
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What's a fantasy arc?

All I know of are question arcs (1-4), and core arcs (chiru)
Whatever, terminology. I would ask you to guess, but you already know. I am done with you and your frequent rudeness. I will just not acknowledge any of your posts from this point on.
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:20   Link #2287
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Whatever, terminology. Take a guess. You already know which ones I mean.
I wouldn't be asking if I did. I've never heard that term before from anyone

I'm really not being rude this time. I really have no idea what your talking about.
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:22   Link #2288
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I hasn't appeared in all of the fantasy arcs, either. Matter of fact, there is only one completed core arc so we do not have a big enough sample to determine that, yet.

@Sentou: How about this solution. Jessica doesn't know? We are not talking about the smartest child in the family here.
We are not talking about a brain dead moron either. She's best friends with Shannon, and has been for the majority of her life. Furthermore, she's known Kanon for three years. If you want to claim that she could be fooled by a trick or something that's been clearly shown, like Natsuhi's explicit tinkering with Kinzo's body, that's fine, but she's never shown to be THAT freaking stupid as to not know about people she cares about. There is suspension of disbelief, like Kinzo's death being delayed a year, and then there are things that fly in the face of established character relationships.
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:24   Link #2289
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We are not talking about a brain dead moron either. She's best friends with Shannon, and has been for the majority of her life. Furthermore, she's known Kanon for three years. If you want to claim that she could be fooled by a trick or something, that's fine, but she's never shown to be THAT freaking stupid. There is suspension of disbelief, like Kinzo's death being delayed a year, and then there are things that fly in the face of established character relationships.
She was fooled and provoked by a very, very general letter in episode 2 and said mistake left her to be killed. So, I would say she is one of the more easier targets for trickery in the series, aside from Maria and probably Battler.
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:26   Link #2290
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She was fooled and provoked by a very, very general letter in episode 2 and said mistake left her to be killed. So, I would say she is one of the more easier targets for trickery in the series, aside from Maria and probably Battler.
She believes she's being taunted by the person who murdered her mother and father. How does that not meet her rash and impulsive characterization? She's not being stupid here, she's just angry, and understandably so; her parents are dead and the person who killed them is taunting her.
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:26   Link #2291
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I wouldn't be asking if I did. I've never heard that term before from anyone

I'm really not being rude this time. I really have no idea what your talking about.
I meant the question arcs. I refer to them as fantasy because they deal more with introducing the fantasy aspect.
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:27   Link #2292
Judoh
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She believes she's being taunted by the person who murdered her mother and father. How does that not meet her rash and impulsive characterization? She's not being stupid here, she's just angry, and understandably so; her parents are dead and the person who killed them is taunting her.

She reiterates this in Episode 4 when She says if Kumasawa didn't tell her what was really going on she probably would've gotten herself killed by trying to get revenge on the killer. So she acknowledges this side of herself too.
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:28   Link #2293
Oliver
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So, in a nutshell, Shkanontrice bothers me simply because it will inevitably completely deny Jessica's character, one way or the other. It stretches common sense with everyone else, but with Jessica particularly, it just can't work.
Thank you for this minor metafictional eureka moment.

The love duel in Ep6 is not about which couple gets love and which doesn't.

It's about whether we can love all of these characters, or have to mesh any two of them into one entity -- in which case, one character is in this way loved, but whoever is left behind is thoroughly denied and turns out to have been a lie all along.

Love "by character X for character Y" and "by us for character X" are radically different things, and I'm pretty sure it's the latter one which is the one without which it cannot be seen.
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:28   Link #2294
Sentou
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
She was fooled and provoked by a very, very general letter in episode 2 and said mistake left her to be killed. So, I would say she is one of the more easier targets for trickery in the series, aside from Maria and probably Battler.
Two things to say to that. One, Battler never did see that letter, and two, HER PARENTS WERE DEAD AND STUFFED WITH CANDY. I think even the more intelligent of us would get very angry at that "little" fact.
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:29   Link #2295
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She believes she's being taunted by the person who murdered her mother and father. How does that not meet her rash and impulsive characterization? She's not being stupid here, she's just angry, and understandably so; her parents are dead and the person who killed them is taunting her.
That is exactly what I mean, the letter was general and could have been thought to be provoking if anyone of the children picked it up, aside from Maria. She was tricked into believing that letter was for her and got all worked up.
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:32   Link #2296
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Yes, but there's a difference between being tricked by a mocking letter moments after discovering the mutilated corpses of your dead parents and not knowing that two people who are very close to you are one and the same.

Essentially you are using apples to prove oranges. Apples that Jessica is even self-aware of.
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:32   Link #2297
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That is exactly what I mean, the letter was general and could have been thought to be provoking if anyone of the children picked it up, aside from Maria. She was tricked into believing that letter was for her and got all worked up.
I can cut her some slack given the circumstances. Do you think Battler wouldn't have been angry and possibly behave rashly as well? I think Maria and possibly George wouldn't have been, but I sort of have my own thoughts on why.
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:36   Link #2298
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It could just be coincidence, but she was the one caught by the trap. Anyways, we cannot assume that Jessica would have known. She has school and the servants have work, Natsuhi probably would not have been cool with servants to talking to Jessica while working. So, we have no clue how much time Jessica spent with them.

Well, I think it is my turn to question. If not for being one in the same, why cannot Shanon and Kanon both have love?
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:42   Link #2299
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Well, I think it is my turn to question. If not for being one in the same, why cannot Shanon and Kanon both have love?
Easy. George and Shannon were set up by Jessica herself right? How much trouble would it be for the family if both of those loves were fulfilled? Essentially to protect his "dummy onee san" from getting in more trouble than she already is Kanon absolutely MUST reject Jessica's love.
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Old 2010-07-05, 22:43   Link #2300
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It could just be coincidence, but she was the one caught by the trap. Anyways, we cannot assume that Jessica would have known. She has school and the servants have work, Natsuhi probably would not have been cool with servants to talking to Jessica while working. So, we have no clue how much time Jessica spent with them.
Well, she says it herself, Shannon is her best friend. She is shown to talk about her issues with Shannon, and generally be very close with Shannon. And she is in love with Kanon. If she knew them for say, 5 months, sure, I could see that, but she's been friends with Shannon for the vast majority of her life. That day six years ago, the day that ties Battler so closely to Shannon, Jessica was also there. For Jessica not to know, her so-called best friendship with Shannon has to be a lie. There is a three year time space that Shannon and Kanon both exist on the island, and Jessica has school, true, but she doesn't go to a bordering school. She wasn't on a vacation in Europe. She lives on the island. The only REASONABLE explanation for Jessica to not know is this:She has a shallow relationship with Kanon and Shannon.

Basically, half the things we've been told about her is a lie. I can't really accept that.
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