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Old 2010-07-07, 08:40   Link #13241
m0h
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We know that in Ep.1 the only supposed survivors are Battler, George, Jessica and Maria.
We know that Beatrice WANTS Battler to solve the riddle of the epitaph.
We also know that Battler has a sin, and Beato used too twisted clues to make Battler reach the truth.

That would lead us to believe that it's all a test to prove if Battler is worth.
Let's assume the Culprit is Beatrice, a merely facade for the true mind of the murders.
Beatrice has nothing to gain from the murders, not even fun. She's not pleased to kill but she has to.

If Battler finds the gold, no more deaths. So , no more anihilation of his family.
If Battler doesn't find the gold, the Ushiromiya's are no more.

Doesn't that sound a drama about "If it's not Battler, then no one else!"
That would lead at a full mass homicide, with the culprit suicide along the survivors with the explosion.

All the others clues can probably be parallel problems between family members that cross the main stream of the story.
How does that sound?
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Old 2010-07-07, 08:57   Link #13242
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
There's several instances in which a possibility is addressed in a roundabout and very strangely specific manner, then dropped and never brought up again.

Examples would be the Jessica's-alternate-personality tangent Battler and EVA-Beatrice get on in ep3 which leads to the red about Jessica's body not committing any acts, and the extremely strangely specific red about how no evidence has been presented that Rosa is a person in disguise in ep5.

Why just Rosa? Why say there's no clues presented to suggest a disguise, rather than just saying there was no disguise? Are we meant to believe there was a disguise, but we just don't have evidence for it?

It's very awkward. And I don't think it's a translation artifact. So what's up with that.
Why don't we make a list of "repetitions that I would definitely ask if I was there".
After all if the witch refuses to say something in red it's probably because you hit the nail. And the fact that there are some red truths that a good detective would definitely ask and yet are never addressed could be seen as a refusal from the witch ryuukishi to state them.

Before you go on asking stuff like "repeat: Shannon isn't the culprit". By rule you should limit the requests to stuff that you would expect the witch to answer easily, not something that it's to be expected that she would refuse to repeat like "The culprit wasn't a witch". Also it must be a red that the witch side would have to repeat because otherwise the hole left would allow the construction of theories that would explain a good part of the tricks.


The reds I would definitely ask are:

"In the limited setting of the gameboard names are exclusive. That means each name can only refer to a single person."

refusing to answer this red would lead to a wide array of theories that could easily destroy many tricks. The witch side would be in a very bad position by refusing this repetition.

"The words "dead" and "died" can only be applied on humans in Rokkenjima whose physical body ceased to function permanently during the game, with the sole exclusion of Kinzo."

This would exclude in one hit: fuzzy definitions of "dead" or "died", metaphorical deaths and deaths outside the closed circle.
A refusal would lead to so many ridiculous theories that the witch side would be pretty much screwed.

Opinions? What else would you ask?
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Old 2010-07-07, 09:12   Link #13243
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I would ask for every character to repeat:
"XX never lied about anything correlated even remotely to the murders".

That would cause a chain reaction.
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Old 2010-07-07, 09:14   Link #13244
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Why just Rosa? Why say there's no clues presented to suggest a disguise, rather than just saying there was no disguise? Are we meant to believe there was a disguise, but we just don't have evidence for it?

It's very awkward. And I don't think it's a translation artifact. So what's up with that.
Actually...
What if there was a disguise, somewhere, but it was Rosa who disguised herself as someone else? And she's one of the better candidates for actually having an alternate personality as well, the Black Witch.

This way, there's clues that something is specifically fishy about Rosa in particular, but truly no clues that anyone else disguised themselves as Rosa, because they didn't.

And I wonder... where did Jessica get that Marisa cosplay for her stage performance? She can't make it herself, she'll get caught and reprimanded, and probably doesn't have the skill. She may have pocket money to buy one, but due to Touhou being an anachronism we can't say if one to buy exists.
Now, whom would she ask for help but her aunt who runs a clothing brand?
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Old 2010-07-07, 09:29   Link #13245
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Opinions? What else would you ask?
Repeat this in red: "Magic allows red text to always be true."
That, if successful, would destroy the universe and wrap the whole thing up nicely.

Seriously though, I would phrase your name exclusivity red differently, to allow the witch to actually say it - maybe, after she would refuse to say your form, as a way to save face. "At no point during, before or after the games, red text was, is, or will be used to refer to one physical individual by multiple different names!" There is, after all, the Other Battler. If the Other Battler exists on the island, with this in red it stops being a problem. If she can't do that either, we can blame Erika for everything.

The next red to ask to repeat would be "At no point during the games, the chronological order of scenes shown was broken, and events appear in the order they have happened in." Refusal to say that would allow weaving the story into a ball of timey-wimey ...stuff.
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Old 2010-07-07, 09:32   Link #13246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m0h View Post
I would ask for every character to repeat:
"XX never lied about anything correlated even remotely to the murders".

That would cause a chain reaction.
the refusal's consequences wouldn't have a big impact. Battler and Erika already assume that people are lying.

@Oliver
I don't know how much of what manga anime tell about culture festivals is true, but you often see them constructing sets with wood panels and other laborious activities. Making costumes isn't strange at all. If Jessica doesn't have the skill then there's plenty of other schoolmates that might.
Then again I wouldn't take so seriously what is probably just a fan service and easter egg.

Quote:
"At no point during the games, the chronological order of scenes shown was broken, and events appear in the order they have happened in." Refusal to say that would allow weaving the story into a ball of timey-wimey ...stuff.
that is interesting. But the witch would probably set some calrification like "this doesn't mean that there can be time jumps". and "this only apply to scenes inside the gameboard from 4 October to 6 October and scenes that are blatantly shown as flashbacks are excluded"
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Old 2010-07-07, 09:50   Link #13247
m0h
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
the refusal's consequences wouldn't have a big impact. Battler and Erika already assume that people are lying.
Being able to tell who and when they lie would actually lead to some theories.
Just immagine knowning someone is lying about seeing something: you would see the weak points of every alibi in no time.

Oh, i would also ask to repeat this.

"The Clocks in the whole Rokkenjima have not been touched, the time they point has never been altered"

since we never doubted about the times.
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Old 2010-07-07, 09:56   Link #13248
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But the witch would probably set some calrification like "this doesn't mean that there can be time jumps". and "this only apply to scenes inside the gameboard from 4 October to 6 October and scenes that are blatantly shown as flashbacks are excluded"
Sure, it is after all a story. But we have advanced several theories which have assumed out of order presentation in the past. We are normally reluctant to do this because it confuses us to think about it like that, rather than the witch, but if the witch admits to ever doing this by refusing to say that in red, we can invalidate any of her closed rooms by this logic and force her to cough up more red.
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Old 2010-07-07, 10:09   Link #13249
Oliver
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....pukukukuku.

Repeat this in red: "My bust size on my physical body is as it appears on my meta-self!"

No, I'm very serious.

EDIT: To be precise, how would that be useful:

If Beatrice refuses to repeat it, you can ridicule her about it forever and have a clue that she may not actually have a physical body in the first place, or it's not limited to women.
Repeating it would ensure that 'Beatrice' has a 'self' on the board, exclude all men out of being her, even Kanon, and turn locating her into a breast touching exercise which Battler is such an expert with.
Plus it does sound like something Battler would really like to know, doesn't it, and not a trap question.
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-07-07 at 10:43.
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Old 2010-07-07, 10:44   Link #13250
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Ha ha, I'm sure she would refuse to repeat it! Because it's false!
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Old 2010-07-07, 10:55   Link #13251
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Ha ha, I'm sure she would refuse to repeat it! Because it's false!
Being able to make fun of her constantly for the rest of the discussion is your prise if she refuses - so it's something she will definitely want to say in red if challenged to do that. If she can't, well, she might try to say something in red to alleviate the effects, but what?
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Old 2010-07-07, 11:02   Link #13252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Being able to make fun of her constantly for the rest of the discussion is your prise if she refuses - so it's something she will definitely want to say in red if challenged to do that. If she can't, well, she might try to say something in red to alleviate the effects, but what?
Why would she say that? Battler's piece would be the ultimate detective if that was said.

He would have wrapped up the case in episode 4.
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Old 2010-07-07, 11:19   Link #13253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
@Oliver
I don't know how much of what manga anime tell about culture festivals is true, but you often see them constructing sets with wood panels and other laborious activities. Making costumes isn't strange at all. If Jessica doesn't have the skill then there's plenty of other schoolmates that might.
Then again I wouldn't take so seriously what is probably just a fan service and easter egg.
I think the point is:
- Jessica had the ability to make a Marisa costume or somehow get one made.
- She therefore also had the ability to make, or have made, a Beatrice dress.
Also:
- She is of a similar build to Beatrice.

These add up to enough to satisfy the Knox rule about disguises.
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Old 2010-07-07, 11:26   Link #13254
Oliver
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To finally settle the bloody Knox question about disguise rule, I would suggest we look for stories Knox himself approved of which contain disguises as a plot element and see what kind of hints those present.
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Old 2010-07-07, 11:29   Link #13255
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But we already know that: "someone has the ability to disguise as Beatrice". And additionally: "someone has the ability to modify her voice enough to not give away her identity".

Unless Beatrice is a person that really exists as a human...
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Old 2010-07-07, 11:34   Link #13256
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But we already know that: "someone has the ability to disguise as Beatrice". And additionally: "someone has the ability to modify her voice enough to not give away her identity".

Unless Beatrice is a person that really exists as a human...
In particular, when Jessica, generally thought to be Suit-Beatrice, is described singing, her voice is clearly stated to be the same as usual.

Which is why I would really like to know what kind of hints does Ryukishi consider sufficient. Failing that, we should be able to ask Knox, but experts in Golden Age mystery fiction will be required.
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Old 2010-07-07, 11:34   Link #13257
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But we already know that: "someone has the ability to disguise as Beatrice". And additionally: "someone has the ability to modify her voice enough to not give away her identity".

Unless Beatrice is a person that really exists as a human...
What is interesting is how Beatrice looked 'western' so a Japanese person without a ridiculous mask would not be able to do that. However, a stage might give someone the necessary tools to do so.
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Old 2010-07-07, 11:55   Link #13258
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The Beatrice that was seen by Battler was still relatively far. Some minor detail might have been missed but I don't think that Beatrice could have been everyone either.

At least the body size and age should be close enough.

In case "Beatrice" appeared in front of other family members more closely, it is still possible that, while they realized she wasn't a western woman, they thought the painting itself was slightly modified to fit with Kinzo's fantasies.

The problem remains in that, while we do have a valid hint that someone is disguising as Beatrice. We don't have any hint about a particular person disguising as Beatrice.

Then again what Dlanor asked was a hint about someone disguising as Rosa.

So maybe that's what the 2nd rule requires.

To make an example, in the case of Shkanon, you don't need to find clues that Shannon disguises as Kanon, but that someone disguised as Kanon. The question is not "who can disguise himself/herself?" but "is there a disguise?"

Since Beatrice is most likely a disguise the 2nd rule is respected.
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Old 2010-07-07, 12:03   Link #13259
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The images released from Episode 7 so far seems at least to me to point towards Kyrie getting sick while on the island... Kinda like Eva was in Episode 3. The image I am referring to is the one in which Rudolf and Natsuhi talks. And also the opening shows the backgrounds on the way to the gold. Is it possible that Kyrie might solve the epitaph this time around? Just a wild guess, but it would be interesting to see her solve it and I really think she is able to solve it too.
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Old 2010-07-07, 12:05   Link #13260
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The Beatrice that was seen by Battler was still relatively far. Some minor detail might have been missed but I don't think that Beatrice could have been everyone either.

At least the body size and age should be close enough.

In case "Beatrice" appeared in front of other family members more closely, it is still possible that, while they realized she wasn't a western woman, they thought the painting itself was slightly modified to fit with Kinzo's fantasies.

The problem remains in that, while we do have a valid hint that someone is disguising as Beatrice. We don't have any hint about a particular person disguising as Beatrice.

Then again what Dlanor asked was a hint about someone disguising as Rosa.

So maybe that's what the 2nd rule requires.

To make an example, in the case of Shkanon, you don't need to find clues that Shannon disguises as Kanon, but that someone disguised as Kanon. The question is not "who can disguise himself/herself?" but "is there a disguise?"

Since Beatrice is most likely a disguise the 2nd rule is respected.
I still disagree with that view. He was the detective, if he did not see Beatrice then he would not describe the person as so. He believes he saw Beatrice, there must be good reason to say so. If it looked like Jessica he would have said, "Jessica what are you doing up there?"

I can't really say any family members actually saw Beatrice, but Kyrie said she was an exact match to the person in the portrait.
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