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Old 2010-07-07, 15:36   Link #13301
Smeckledorf
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Or that his real name is Kinzo. It's not like I believe this, I'm simply reporting the most popular theory to explain Kanon's escape from the cousin room after Shkanon.
I was just trying to get a correct interpretation of what the theory was.
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Old 2010-07-07, 15:37   Link #13302
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
and how does this explain the problem? Their names weren't mentioned at all...
Um...exactly? I already stated with the red truth that all names refer only to the actual people


The names referred to in red in that episode were Battler, Kanon, Rosa, Maria, Natsuhi, Kyrie, Eva, Erika, Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Gohda, Kumasawa, George, Shannon, and Nanjo. A total of 16 people, and Jessica and Genji were never referred to.

What I'm saying is that only these 16 names refer to actual characters.
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Old 2010-07-07, 15:40   Link #13303
m0h
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What exactly are you suggesting? In the case of Kinzo we never had a precise number of the people on the island.
Beato left the number of people quite open to interpretation, due to Kinzo.
Kinzo ceased to be an actual PIECE when Battler found out that Kinzo is already dead at the start time of every game


What did she? She LOWERED THE COUNTER BY 1, because she was FORCED.

Everyone on the island belived Kinzo existed, so the number was +1 by Magic ( yes, when everyone believes, here's the magic ).

The same thing could apply to Kanon: if everyone believes that Kanon the Servant exists as in individual, the number is indeed CORRECT!
The very exact moment that the human side finds out about the trick. Puff. The Game master would be forced again to lower the counter.

Remember how was the human explication of the Trial in ep 5? Erika that in front of everyone one explains everything. And when Lambda confirmed the theory, EVERYONE IN ROKKENJIMA ACCEPTED IT AS TRUTH!. Turn over the chessboard and voila', here's the people number illusion!


Remember, Red Truth is not GOLD TRUTH. It's open to interpretations!

Also, we do remember that Red Truth applies to specific moments of the game unless specified?
We can quote the red truth, but we have to think WHEN it was made, because unless it specifies "it applies for all games" , its time-dependant.
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Old 2010-07-07, 15:43   Link #13304
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No, Beatrice always said "no more than." "No more than" can mean less than the number stated, or the exact number. She lowered the number by one for Kinzo because confirming his death left open the possibility of a Person X if she did not. She never explicitly said that by lowering the number for one, she was fixing the number of people.

The end of ep6 is the one and only time a specific number has ever been used.
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Old 2010-07-07, 15:46   Link #13305
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Originally Posted by m0h View Post
Beato left the number of people quite open to interpretation, due to Kinzo.
Kinzo ceased to be an actual PIECE when Battler found out that Kinzo is already dead at the start time of every game


What did she? She LOWERED THE COUNTER BY 1, because she was FORCED.

Everyone on the island belived Kinzo existed, so the number was +1 by Magic ( yes, when everyone believes, here's the magic ).

The same thing could apply to Kanon: if everyone believes that Kanon the Servant exists as in individual, the number is indeed CORRECT!
The very exact moment that the human side finds out about the trick. Puff. The Game master would be forced again to lower the counter.

Remember how was the human explication of the Trial in ep 5? Erika that in front of everyone one explains everything. And when Lambda confirmed the theory, EVERYONE IN ROKKENJIMA ACCEPTED IT AS TRUTH!. Turn over the chessboard and voila', here's the people number illusion!


Remember, Red Truth is not GOLD TRUTH. It's open to interpretations!

Also, we do remember that Red Truth applies to specific moments of the game unless specified?
We can quote the red truth, but we have to think WHEN it was made, because unless it specifies "it applies for all games" , its time-dependant.
Gold truth is more open to interpretation that red truth. We know that red truth in one form or another is truthful. All we know about gold truth is it is sometimes superior and sometimes inferior than red truth.
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Old 2010-07-07, 15:49   Link #13306
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
No, Beatrice always said "no more than." "No more than" can mean less than the number stated, or the exact number. She lowered the number by one for Kinzo because confirming his death left open the possibility of a Person X if she did not. She never explicitly said that by lowering the number for one, she was fixing the number of people.

The end of ep6 is the one and only time a specific number has ever been used.
Because for everyone on the island, it's true that there are 17 people.
I think the existence of red truth is conditioned by the beliefs of everyone on the island. Since without proof you can't disprove anything, the truth remains truth.

Red Truth is for definition something that the human side must accept.
Gold Truth seems to be indipendent of people's beliefs.. Battler used it to make everyone accept that that corpse was Kinzo.
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Old 2010-07-07, 15:49   Link #13307
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Um...exactly? I already stated with the red truth that all names refer only to the actual people


The names referred to in red in that episode were Battler, Kanon, Rosa, Maria, Natsuhi, Kyrie, Eva, Erika, Krauss, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Gohda, Kumasawa, George, Shannon, and Nanjo. A total of 16 people, and Jessica and Genji were never referred to.

What I'm saying is that only these 16 names are actual characters.
This idea however has only sense if you want to believe that the red truth removes any possibility of name doubles. Removing Jessica and Genji from the game would be a very dirty trick by itself.

But then how do you explain how Kanon escaped from the cousin's room?

That's what I'm getting at. If I still need to think about a free interpretation of "all names refer to the actual people" then I have really nothing to gain from accepting a dirty trick like removing two characters that always appeared so far.

Quote:
Because for everyone on the island, it's true that there are 17 people.
I think the existence of red truth is conditioned by the beliefs of everyone on the island. Since without proof you can't disprove anything, the truth remains truth.
preposterous. Beliefs can change red truth can never change. If red truth could change logic errors wouldn't exist.
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Old 2010-07-07, 15:53   Link #13308
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I think the existence of red truth is conditioned by the beliefs of everyone on the island. Since without proof you can't disprove anything, the truth remains truth.
No I don't think the red is like that at all. It's not necessary to have any evidence to give a red truth. Lambda said that herself in red. It's just a proclamation and it requires no evidence to say. That's why Knox's 2nd is used forbid it as a clue.

The gold truth however is a human proof and it requires some sort of evidence or human knowledge to say. It's a subjective proof and is not absolute truth at all. Or it's just a bluff, but I don't really like that idea.

Ryukishi also said the golden truth is like a finishing move in a fighting game, which was a metaphor I used myself once before he said that. It's bad in certain situation and better in others. I think it's strongest when it's trapped in red and blue (since there is more information built up then) and weak when only red is used. It's best save as a last minute move.
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Old 2010-07-07, 15:53   Link #13309
Smeckledorf
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The end of ep6 is the one and only time a specific number has ever been used.
True, but could it be used in such a fashion? We know Kinzo's body is on the island but he doesn't count towards that number because he is dead. That means the 5 sacrifices should probably not be counted in the same way. Unless of course, Kinzo doesn't count because he can't influence the game at all. Anyways, I think at the end they meant no more than 17 again.
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Old 2010-07-07, 15:56   Link #13310
m0h
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
preposterous. Beliefs can change red truth can never change. If red truth could change logic errors wouldn't exist.
There would not been a logic error if the Believes keeps being the same for the whole game. if red truth are not TIME-DEPENDANT, why adding the "this apply for all games" in some red truth?

I'd try to add an immaginary "in this precise moment" to every red truth that doesn't specify another timespam.. it would be interesting..

After all we know that you can make a red truth only when the moment is right.
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Old 2010-07-07, 16:01   Link #13311
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After all we know that you can make a red truth only when the moment is right.
If my memory serves me right a red truth can be put off until the very end of the game or it can be used immediately. I don't think this is true either it's really just the GM's choice.
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Old 2010-07-07, 16:01   Link #13312
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
The gold truth however is a human proof and it requires some sort of evidence or human knowledge to say. It's a subjective proof and is not absolute truth at all. Or it's just a bluff, but I don't really like that idea.
Wasn't the other way round? Battler used GOLD to GIVE the evidence.
After all he said in red "Presentation of evidence, i present a corpse that could possibly be identified as Ushiromiya Kinzo".
Dlanor forced Battler to use Gold right because he could not use red.

in real world sounds like:
"this is kinzo's corpse"
"how can you say it? prove it. "
"Listen, you have to believe it because I SAY SO."
"ok. i believe you."
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Old 2010-07-07, 16:02   Link #13313
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The "apply for all games" isn't actually a matter related to "time".

Games are treated as completely separate universes. But of course reds are tied to time. If it is said that "Jessica is dead", it means that Jessica died at a certain time not that it was dead since the start of the universe.

But how this has anything to do with the idea that red are influenced by beliefs?

red truth is simply the truth

Once it's said that Jessica died at a certain time, for all eternity she'll be dead at that precise time in that precise fragment.
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Old 2010-07-07, 16:03   Link #13314
m0h
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
If my memory serves me right a red truth can be put off until the very end of the game or it can be used immediately. I don't think this is true either it's really just the GM's choice.
that's coherent. You cannot tell a red truth unless it really happened in the past. But it's game-limited, unless you specify "it applies at all games"
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Old 2010-07-07, 16:03   Link #13315
Judoh
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Originally Posted by m0h View Post
Wasn't the other way round? Battler used GOLD to GIVE the evidence.
After all he said in red "Presentation of evidence, i present a corpse that could possibly be identified as Ushiromiya Kinzo".
Dlanor forced Battler to use Gold right because he could not use red.

in real world sounds like:
"this is kinzo's corpse"
"how can you say it? prove it. "
"Listen, you have to believe it because I SAY SO."
"ok. i believe you."
He said in red there was no objective way to prove this corpse was Kinzo's though. So his guarantee either has to have physical evidence we're not aware of (that's not 100% certain), like an autopsy, or it has to be subjective. Other than lying with the Gold those are our only options.

For example he could be guaranteeing Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse is "somewhere" if it's subjective and not "this corpse is definitely his", which is objective.

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Originally Posted by m0h View Post
it's game-limited, unless you specify "it applies at all games"
And a lot of times the "this applies to all games" reds only makes sense if it's all games that are here now. I've pointed this out before, but Beato is not a fortune teller.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-07 at 16:17.
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Old 2010-07-07, 16:05   Link #13316
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Even if there were less than 17 people on the island, would this change any suspects in the murders?

Having Person X would only lead to possibly the Boatman (seen at the beginning of the game) or some other person. Knox's Rules still applies (well most of them).
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Old 2010-07-07, 16:06   Link #13317
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you forgot a real human Beatrice.
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Old 2010-07-07, 16:16   Link #13318
Ronove
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
you forgot a real human Beatrice.
Ahh yes. A real human Beatrice! However, judging from the Chessboard theory, where can a Beatrice be hiding in the rain?

Also just being curious, does anyone have a rough room sketch of the mansion? Like where is Jessica's room juxtaposed to the window, corridors, etc.
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Old 2010-07-07, 16:19   Link #13319
m0h
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The "apply for all games" isn't actually a matter related to "time".

But what this has anything to do with the idea that red are influenced by beliefs?
Simply because Dlanor , as human side, SEALED THE RED. So Battler was forced to use GOLD.

How can you seal the red if the human side has to accept it ?
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Old 2010-07-07, 16:21   Link #13320
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@Judoh

Forgot polydactilism?
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