AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-07-07, 17:37   Link #13341
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
You have to explain 8 other victims to just to make your one theory work. When all it would take for the witch is to say that 9th victim died at the specified time in Kyrie's group. it doesn't work.
But that wasn't said. So, it does work.
Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die.
That doesn't even limit victims to the duration of the game.
I'm not saying it's probable but it could work.
__________________
Smeckledorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 17:39   Link #13342
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
But that wasn't said. So, it does work.
Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die.
That doesn't even limit victims to the duration of the game.
I'm not saying it's probable but it could work.
The fact that it is improbable and that you have to do 9 times the work to prove it is a losing battle. It's just not true sorry.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 17:44   Link #13343
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
The fact that it is improbable and that you have to do 9 times the work to prove it is a losing battle. It's just not true sorry.
It's not a losing battle because you can't disprove it. It is a status quo. You think the answer is going to be the most probable answer? That would be no fun writing, now would it? Matter of fact, it would be no fun reading.
__________________
Smeckledorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 17:50   Link #13344
m0h
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Geh, page 666. We are in Beato's territory now.
m0h is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 17:51   Link #13345
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
It's not a losing battle because you can't disprove it. It is a status quo.
Again your doing 9 times the work your opponent has to. You have to prove 8 corpses died before the specified time when there have been no hints such a thing was possible. And your opponent can just deny the basis immediately. Otherwise you have conjure up 8 different names for the other corpses and then you end up with victims in negative numbers. It just doesn't work sorry. There are better ways to go about it. You can keep making this claim, but I won't take you seriously if you do.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 17:54   Link #13346
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Sorry for such an abrupt change, but I came across something interesting while watching a friend read EP2:

When Beatrice talks to Shannon in the beginning of EP2 (when she makes the bruise on her hand) and offers her the deal, Beatrice herself never mentions George's name. Instead, she uses vague terms such as "your loved one" or the "one you love." This is rather odd, reading that part a second time; Beatrice does not seem to mention the obvious choice for Shannon's loved one. Is this another hint for Shannon falling in love with Battler, that is brought up in EP3?

The thing that bothers me is the narration, though; while the witch doesn't use any names, the narration does. Is the narration to be trusted when it uses George's name? If Shannon is the narrator for that part, then she could possibly just be in denial.
It could be simply because Beatrice didn't want Shannon to have the impression that that kind of magic was meant for her alone. Beatrice probably expected Shannon to talk about that magic to Kanon as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Yeah, it's fine if you want to argue it, but now you have to explain 8 more victims. Have fun with that.
Isn't this a trivial matter?

Since when a red that states that "Erika did this" or "Erika did that" worried you?
Kanon was the first to die?
Where's the problem? You just need to read it as "Shannon was the first to die among the five in Kyrie's group" "Shannon was the 9th victim".

Does the fact that Erika Furudo is a real person that quite obviously died before the start of the game worries you?
Why should I worry about the fact that Kanon was a real person that died before the start of the game?
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 17:55   Link #13347
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
What a wonderful page number.

Sorry to interrupt, but I'm replaying the first few games in preparation for the imminent release of the Ep6 translation, and, well...

I can't reconcile Beatrice's early twisted, malicious behavior with her portrayal from Ep4 onward. I've never been able to just consider it 'acting', given that she goes on and on about the poison of boredom and the curse of immortality, etc, the same stuff that Bern rants about in Ep5.

So I've been wondering... exactly what did Beatrice do to earn our sympathy and forget about all the horrible things she did back in the early games? Her actions can't be entirely explained by 'acting' or 'they're just pieces', since she also tortures Battler for an unspecified period of time in the Meta-World between Ep2 and 3, and seems to derive great enjoyment from it... and then there's what she does for Rosa...

What did she do in the last three games that's suddenly made everything she'd done 'okay'? Why does learning about her tragic past suddenly make her a good person who doesn't enjoy doling out eternal torture?

I know I've brought this up before, and it sounds horribly paranoid, but what if she's still trolling Battler, even now?
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 17:56   Link #13348
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Where's the problem? You just need to read it as "Shannon was the first to die among the five in Kyrie's group" "Shannon was the 9th victim".
In this case though you have to add an unknown fifth person to be missing. Since there are five people in Kyrie's group. And subtracting Kanon makes it four.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 17:57   Link #13349
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Again your doing 9 times the work your opponent has to. You have to prove 8 corpses died before the specified time when there have been no hints such a thing was possible. And your opponent can just deny the basis immediately. Otherwise you have conjure up 8 different names for the other corpses and then you end up with victims in negative numbers. It just doesn't work sorry. There are better ways to go about it. You can keep making this claim, but I won't take you seriously if you do.
Actually, I would only have to say 9 people died. Then the witch would either let my theory stick or deny it. I don't have to list names.
You really should be less serious, then you would be where I am at. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying I am lying about my previous statements but this isn't something I actually believe.
__________________
Smeckledorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 17:59   Link #13350
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
What a wonderful page number.

Sorry to interrupt, but I'm replaying the first few games in preparation for the imminent release of the Ep6 translation, and, well...

I can't reconcile Beatrice's early twisted, malicious behavior with her portrayal from Ep4 onward. I've never been able to just consider it 'acting', given that she goes on and on about the poison of boredom and the curse of immortality, etc, the same stuff that Bern rants about in Ep5.

So I've been wondering... exactly what did Beatrice do to earn our sympathy and forget about all the horrible things she did back in the early games? Her actions can't be entirely explained by 'acting' or 'they're just pieces', since she also tortures Battler for an unspecified period of time in the Meta-World between Ep2 and 3, and seems to derive great enjoyment from it... and then there's what she does for Rosa...

What did she do in the last three games that's suddenly made everything she'd done 'okay'? Why does learning about her tragic past suddenly make her a good person who doesn't enjoy doling out eternal torture?

I know I've brought this up before, and it sounds horribly paranoid, but what if she's still trolling Battler, even now?
Why? that's one of the reasons that brought me to the author theory. Would you think that I'm a heartless bastard if I'd tell you that I wrote a story where a lot of people die in many horrible ways?

Beatrice never really did any of those terrible things. She's been saying all along: it's fantasy!
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 18:03   Link #13351
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
What a wonderful page number.

Sorry to interrupt, but I'm replaying the first few games in preparation for the imminent release of the Ep6 translation, and, well...

I can't reconcile Beatrice's early twisted, malicious behavior with her portrayal from Ep4 onward. I've never been able to just consider it 'acting', given that she goes on and on about the poison of boredom and the curse of immortality, etc, the same stuff that Bern rants about in Ep5.

So I've been wondering... exactly what did Beatrice do to earn our sympathy and forget about all the horrible things she did back in the early games? Her actions can't be entirely explained by 'acting' or 'they're just pieces', since she also tortures Battler for an unspecified period of time in the Meta-World between Ep2 and 3, and seems to derive great enjoyment from it... and then there's what she does for Rosa...

What did she do in the last three games that's suddenly made everything she'd done 'okay'? Why does learning about her tragic past suddenly make her a good person who doesn't enjoy doling out eternal torture?

I know I've brought this up before, and it sounds horribly paranoid, but what if she's still trolling Battler, even now?
Who gave her any sympathy? I am rooting on Bern. Battler is just spineless.
__________________
Smeckledorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 18:05   Link #13352
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
In this case though you have to add an unknown fifth person to be missing. Since there are five people in Kyrie's group. And subtracting Kanon makes it four.
No problem. Kinzo died first after all.
one of those that was supposed to have died in the first twilight is actually in Kyrie's group.

Kinzo+5+2, that makes 8. And Shannon can be the ninth to die and first among Kyrie's group
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 18:16   Link #13353
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
No problem. Kinzo died first after all.
one of those that was supposed to have died in the first twilight is actually in Kyrie's group.

Kinzo+5+2, that makes 8. And Shannon can be the ninth to die and first among Kyrie's group
Great job! Now Kinzo is definitely a murder victim. And we have to figure out how to explain EP5.

This line of thought just brings up more and more problems in my mind, ugh... can't do nothin about it. Whatever... I don't care...
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 18:18   Link #13354
Auria
...
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Catbox
I did not even consider her action in episode 3 trolling, for me it was just "ffff I was to weak if I can't turn it around it'll end up bad" like she was bond by a contract or something like that (Lambdadelta!) the fast imagemood change when she tells Battler the 'truth' is supporting the idea that her thoughts are at least not one-way regarding this issue.

After all eps, I feel like her cruel self was an act to begin with. (failenglish, sry)
Auria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 18:19   Link #13355
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Great job! Now Kinzo is definitely a murder victim. And we have to figure out how to explain EP5.

This line of thought just brings up more and more problems in my mind, ugh... can't do nothin about it. Whatever... I don't care...
Kinzo was a victim... of fashion.

Black cloak, white suit? Puh-leeze.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 18:20   Link #13356
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
He was used as a murder victim before.

And don't worry too much about the problems in your mind, we are all in the same situation, even those that don't admit it.

We are all stuck with these ridiculous tricks, I hope Ryuukishi has a better explanation, or a good excuse.


Oh man! A sudden epiphany! We are all stuck in a logic errooooooooorrrr!!!!!
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 18:22   Link #13357
blitz1/2
Tenshi's Defense Squadron
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Fighting against those who oppress the system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Who gave her any sympathy? I am rooting on Bern. Battler is just spineless.
She sure doesn't have mine.

I just want my Erika back, and this time, Bern, kill off Beato and/or Battler (for GOOD this time, last time was a failure) >

@Auria: Or maybe her nice image is also a troll ver 2.

Which brings me to another topic. It's VERY difficult to read Bern as well. Because all of her displayed traits could either be an act or all part of her true character.
__________________

hai, hai. Onii-chan has his work cut out for him.
blitz1/2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 18:24   Link #13358
CainSonozaki
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
What a wonderful page number.

Sorry to interrupt, but I'm replaying the first few games in preparation for the imminent release of the Ep6 translation, and, well...

I can't reconcile Beatrice's early twisted, malicious behavior with her portrayal from Ep4 onward. I've never been able to just consider it 'acting', given that she goes on and on about the poison of boredom and the curse of immortality, etc, the same stuff that Bern rants about in Ep5.

So I've been wondering... exactly what did Beatrice do to earn our sympathy and forget about all the horrible things she did back in the early games? Her actions can't be entirely explained by 'acting' or 'they're just pieces', since she also tortures Battler for an unspecified period of time in the Meta-World between Ep2 and 3, and seems to derive great enjoyment from it... and then there's what she does for Rosa...

What did she do in the last three games that's suddenly made everything she'd done 'okay'? Why does learning about her tragic past suddenly make her a good person who doesn't enjoy doling out eternal torture?

I know I've brought this up before, and it sounds horribly paranoid, but what if she's still trolling Battler, even now?
Thats not how i see it. Since Magic Basically equals Lies, I think the real reason Beato wants Battler to accept her is cuz the truth woulda been too painful for him. I think its more battlers fault personally. Why? Well aside from red that basically says it is, he insists hes NOT going to lose To Beato. So she has to murder his family repeatedly (I think it even says its been repeating for more games than the first 4) til he either submits to her and thus "everyone lives happily in the Golden Land" or deny her and find out whos really behind it (which apparently he did but failed at proving it).
__________________
"Without love it can't be seen.
With love there will be falsehood.
With falsehood comes belief.
Right now the time where magic advents.
I am Beatrice-sama! Ahaha"
CainSonozaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 18:33   Link #13359
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Beatrice never really did any of those terrible things. She's been saying all along: it's fantasy!
That's not what I mean. I'm not talking about her killing Battler's family over and over again (that never happened to begin with) I'm talking about her actions in the Meta-World.

Even if she's 'acting' for 'Battler's sake'... that doesn't make murdering him repeatedly alright, does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auria View Post
I did not even consider her action in episode 3 trolling, for me it was just "ffff I was to weak if I can't turn it around it'll end up bad" like she was bond by a contract or something like that (Lambdadelta!) the fast imagemood change when she tells Battler the 'truth' is supporting the idea that her thoughts are at least not one-way regarding this issue.
That's ANOTHER thing that strikes me as just... off.

Her conversations with the other witches in Ep1 and 2 suggest that she's a famous and well-known witch, not much less powerful than Bern or Lambda, and certainly not subordinate to either of them... and then Ep3 comes along and suddenly she's been Lambda's servant the whole time.

This just makes no sense to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
It's VERY difficult to read Bern as well. Because all of her displayed traits could either be an act or all part of her true character.
She acts exactly like Beatrice did in Ep1 and 2.

Which is why all the HATE BERN, LOVE BEATO confuses me.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-07, 18:37   Link #13360
June 1983
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Warwick, RI
Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Why? that's one of the reasons that brought me to the author theory. Would you think that I'm a heartless bastard if I'd tell you that I wrote a story where a lot of people die in many horrible ways?

Beatrice never really did any of those terrible things. She's been saying all along: it's fantasy!
That's the key, and that's the thing that makes Beatrice such a compelling character. She behaves in such a heartless fashion, but then you realize "Wait, if Battler is right, then she's NOT the culprit. So why is she taking the blame? Why is she making herself look so horrible?"
June 1983 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:53.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.