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Old 2004-09-14, 14:33   Link #41
Deth moad ue
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First off...Has anyone realized how bad of an idea concentrating on the enemies feet in battle is? While Gai is staring at Itachi's feet, Itachi pulls a kunai and sticks him. Done deal.

Anyways......


it's not as if sasuke is the only one who can beat itachi. He just has the best chance due to bloodline potential. Well, that, and he can't die til he kills him. If someone else does it, he'll be pissed. Being the only other true sharingan user, he's the only one (unless kakashi can get mange, which would wipe his chakra in one use im sure) that could face itachi on his own terms as far as sharingan goes.

If sasuke gets to a point where he has mange, it's prolly gonna come down to whos mange is stronger. They could read each other's moves, so taijutsu would be useless. Genjutsu can be seen through, and ninjutsu could be followed and copied, negating it (like the water dragon attack)

It'd be a big tomoe filled staring contest. Whoever had the most chakra would hold out the longest and win.
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Old 2004-09-14, 14:41   Link #42
CyberPunk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaSe-
Your arguement is very, very flawed.

So basically your saying that because Orochimaru confronted Jiraiya without hesitation, and because Orochimaru said that Itachi is stronger than him (basing his strength on amount of jutsu's) You assume that Itachi is greater than the Sannins?

We truely do not know until they actually fight to the end, and they havent, be it manga or anime.
how is that flawed? oro KNOWS the extent of both jiraiya and itachi's power. after all, he did work with them both(as a team with jiraiya, and in akatsuki with itachi). and no, you're the one that said he was lower than the sannin, i was simply stating that there's no way in hell that he is. you also keep forgetting to respond to my initial post about why i think itachi is the better ninja.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xavier
alright everyone lets be serious about this. in all actuality Itachi is not the strongest character in Naruto. I firmly believe that Jiraiya and Sarutobi are stronger. However, when taking into account the story line you would have to say that if any of these two faught Jiraiya or Sarutobi he would win. Because of the whole "im the only one who can kill that man" Sasuke deal and if Itachi and Jiraiya faught, Jiraiya would probably loose b/c of the qoute stated earlier.

I dont believe that Itachi is the strongest but the storyline of Naruto is going to probably make him the strongest when the time comes.
that's exactly what i was trying to get at with my previous posts.
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Old 2004-09-14, 16:29   Link #43
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
You invented that Uchiha_Rurik, and it contradicts what the manga says.

The fact is that they didn't see Itachi make hand seals to counter the Genjutsu of Kurenai, to create the Kage Bunshin or to make it explodes, to do his water jutsu attack, to do his water wall to protect himself from the explosion and to replace himself by the Kage Bunshin either by high speed or a Kawarimi.
You are the one who are inventing things!

Itachi never did a Water Wall to protect himself!

and i will give you a recap of everithing

-Itachi Kicks Kurenai to the Water
-Next the water Clone Itachi Appears Behind Kurenai
-Kakashi appears
-they talk a litle (Its still the water clone)
-The Water Clone Itachi takes out the shurinken, both Kurenai and Kakashi are watching this.

-Then Kakshi makes the Water wall and Itachi The real One makes the Water atak (i know this because the water clone never witdrew the shurinken so he did not made hand seals)

-Kakshi says he could not follow the hands seals..thats because he was following the movement of the Water clone who never did the water atack jutsu,

-after this The real Itachi stabs a Water clone Kakashi in the back, the same time kurenai sez, "A Shadow Bushin?" in this momnet Kurenai was thinking that the
Bushin was the real itachi and that the real Itachi was a Bushin, because she had her eyes always on the bushin she never saw hand seals...

That Because Both Kakshi and Kurenai, always kept there eyes oin the bushin, and behind there backs The real itachi was making the jutsus....Im not saying that he is slow, he really does makes the seals fast (heck we don have any prove that he even needs to make hand seals)

But Kakshi and Kurenai coul not follow the seals because the were always following the Clone Movements
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Old 2004-09-14, 16:49   Link #44
nh1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha_Rurik
You are the one who are inventing things!

Itachi never did a Water Wall to protect himself!
He did, but I agree that your theory is more than likely seeing as the one who stabbed Kakashi in the back was the real Itachi and Kurenai actually thought he was a clone made by Itachi in an instant, behind Kakashi "A shadow clone? His jutsu speed is incredibly fast!". Then again, I don't see how he snuck by Kurenai before he did the waterdrill jutsu (Kawarimi with a bunshin? But still!!).
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Old 2004-09-14, 17:01   Link #45
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha_Rurik
You are the one who are inventing things!

Itachi never did a Water Wall to protect himself!

and i will give you a recap of everithing
A recap is good but it would be even better if it was correct.



Itachi did create a water wall to be protected from the explosion.

Quote:
-Itachi Kicks Kurenai to the Water
-Next the water Clone Itachi Appears Behind Kurenai
And you start to invent thing here, contradicting the explanation of 2 characters because... You don't like what the manga says.

The simple truth is that as during every fight in Naruto the fighters explain what's going on and that you disliked the explanation and thus invented your own which contradict what Kakashi and Kurenai explained without even a single proof nor reason.

Oh and besides Itachi never used a Water Clone it was a Kage Bunshin.
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Old 2004-09-14, 17:26   Link #46
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
A recap is good but it would be even better if it was correct.



Itachi did create a water wall to be protected from the explosion.


And you start to invent thing here, contradicting the explanation of 2 characters because... You don't like what the manga says.

The simple truth is that as during every fight in Naruto the fighters explain what's going on and that you disliked the explanation and thus invented your own which contradict what Kakashi and Kurenai explained without even a single proof nor reason.

Oh and besides Itachi never used a Water Clone it was a Kage Bunshin.

Excuse for the water clone...becasue i did not know if it was a Bushin or a water clone...either way is stilla clone...sorry for the water part..

pbut all of my explanation is right there in the manga...and Kurenai and Kakshi are awayl thinking that the Clone is the real Itachi..Kurenai have this tough until kakashi warned her...and Kakshi knew this just before he passed the Knife to Kurenai

watch the manga again..very close, im only saying wath im saw in the manga...im niot inventing nor contradicting....and wath was thjat that i invented my ownexplanation??????
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Old 2004-09-14, 17:42   Link #47
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We cant say anything, we just have to see them fight.

Only thing i know is i have never seen oro say that itachi is stronger then him (or it was becouse of the translation) And the time he DID say, he said he couldn't beat him in his current condition (without his arms).

If oro is 100% cured, i think it will be a hell of a fight but i think that oro will win.
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Old 2004-09-14, 17:50   Link #48
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Quote:
We cant say anything, we just have to see them fight. Only thing i know is i have never seen oro say that itachi is stronger then him (or it was becouse of the translation) And the time he DID say, he said he couldn't beat him in his current condition (without his arms). If oro is 100% cured, i think it will be a hell of a fight but i think that oro will win.

wow how can u say that, Oro says it best himself here let me give a brief recap on what oro thinks of itachi.

-chapter 140-
-ORO- "First of all. If we had only gotten Uchiha Itachi to join us.There wouldnt have been any prolems at all. But that is just a dream to wish for.... because he is even stronger than my self..."
-Kabuto- "........"
-ORO- "That is why i left that organization"

He basically states that Itachi forced him out of the organization because he was stronger.. im pretty sure he had his arms in the organization i dunno bout you though.. they looked pretty active when he was fight sarutobi
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Old 2004-09-14, 17:54   Link #49
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha_Rurik
Excuse for the water clone...becasue i did not know if it was a Bushin or a water clone...either way is stilla clone...sorry for the water part..
No problem, frankly I didn't see the water wall the first time I read the manga

Quote:
pbut all of my explanation is right there in the manga...and Kurenai and Kakshi are awayl thinking that the Clone is the real Itachi..Kurenai have this tough until kakashi warned her...and Kakshi knew this just before he passed the Knife to Kurenai
No sorry it's not, If we were still during the chapter of this fight your theory would have been perfectly possible really, but to affirm that the explanation of the characters during a fight were wrong whereas the manga never contradicted them in any way after what? Almost 90 chapters?
Well it's just wrong...

Yes Itachi replaced himself by a clone and Kakashi also replace himself by a Water Clone just before Itachi stabs him, does that means that Kakashi was a water clone from the beginning?

Frankly I kinda like your theory but if it was true then Kakashi or Kurenai would have explained that Itachi was a clone since the beginning and that they were wrong to think that they were unable to see his hand seals.
Imagine that Zabuza would never have explained that the Sharingan can't see in the future after his first defeat, it would have been stupid.
When a character gives a wrong explanation it's always rectified when he understand what's going on not to lose the readers.
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Old 2004-09-14, 18:39   Link #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nub.Itachi
wow how can u say that, Oro says it best himself here let me give a brief recap on what oro thinks of itachi.

-chapter 140-
-ORO- "First of all. If we had only gotten Uchiha Itachi to join us.There wouldnt have been any prolems at all. But that is just a dream to wish for.... because he is even stronger than my self..."
-Kabuto- "........"
-ORO- "That is why i left that organization"

He basically states that Itachi forced him out of the organization because he was stronger.. im pretty sure he had his arms in the organization i dunno bout you though.. they looked pretty active when he was fight sarutobi
Yeah, I agree here, I don't think Oro is the strongest. Whilst he's one of the smartest, I don't think he was the strongest. I agree with this comment here, I think if Oro 100% v. Itachi 100%...Itachi would win, but Oro would give him a run for his money.

Besides almost all of Oro's attacks are based on Ninjutsu and Genjutsu, I think Itachi would be able to see through that with his sharingan.
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Old 2004-09-14, 19:13   Link #51
itachistyle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_belette
almost everyone think Itachi is a kind of god .... sure he his powerful , but i think he'd had no chance vs a sannin. Oro is afraid of him because his sharingan can copy all his jutsu ( and he don't want that ^^). If he was THAT powerful, he would be considered as a legend, like the sannin.... and why did he join akatsuki?


well, we ve only seen 3 very powerful attacks, but we didnt see the sannin in action (oro vs sarutobi : he lets the 1st and the 2nd ... , jiraiya-poisoned, tsunade-blood )


and dont you think gai can beat him ??

simple:he s a missing nin,a bad guy and mainly ,he left konoha very early ,when he was 13 so it s a bit normal that he wasn t considered like a legend and that few people (in konoha)know well his real strenght
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Old 2004-09-14, 20:50   Link #52
vega98767
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Granted Gai would lose to Itachi because Itachi is nearly as good or better than the Sannins but I don't think Gai would get his ass kicked like most have said. He told the other two ninja (forgive me for forgetting their names) to stare at the feet because it would be easier for them. I think Gai could stare at the torso or even focus on Itachis right hand or something in order to give him a defense for Jutsus. So yeah Gai would lose, but he wouldn't be as useless as most of you would think.
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Old 2004-09-14, 21:24   Link #53
SaberDicer
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If Oro fought Itachi, it would go like this

Oro * Summons Yodiame*
Itachi : Oh shit
Itachi *dies*
Oro: Well now that that's finished with, I'll go rape some more little boys

Unless of course Itachi is stronger than Yodiame. I really don't see how everyone says Itachi is some ultra godlike shinobi who can never be beaten. He can do Tsukiyomi, thats nice, he can also Amaterasu and he faster than Kakashi on jutsu speed. He has the sharingan so he can dodge movements right. His stamina sucks, and we haven't really seen much of his other arsenal besides the stuff he showed off vs Kakashi which is pretty basic.

This is in no way godlike, he's fast but he's not as fast as gai, his jutsu speed is fast but it doesn't matter because we don't have enough to base his jutsus off of, Tsukiyomi is easily countered by kage bushin, Amaterasu looks like a high lvl katon, which can be dodged. He can read movements but that doesn't do much when the other person is faster or can attack from multiple points at once. Hes also vulnerable to direct attack jutsu's and he doesn't have the stamina to take lots of hits or keep pouring out jutsu's. The sharingan is not a be all end all, there are counters. Itachi is not the shinobi god, hes just a suped up version of Kakashi. While I'm not denying his strenght, and he is top 3 strongest, the characters say too many contradictory things to create a final power triangle, top 3 being Oro, Jiraiya and Itachi in no particular order. None of them are stronger than Sarutobi or Yodiame.
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Old 2004-09-15, 01:33   Link #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nub.Itachi
wow how can u say that, Oro says it best himself here let me give a brief recap on what oro thinks of itachi.

-chapter 140-
-ORO- "First of all. If we had only gotten Uchiha Itachi to join us.There wouldnt have been any prolems at all. But that is just a dream to wish for.... because he is even stronger than my self..."
-Kabuto- "........"
-ORO- "That is why i left that organization"

He basically states that Itachi forced him out of the organization because he was stronger.. im pretty sure he had his arms in the organization i dunno bout you though.. they looked pretty active when he was fight sarutobi
Episode 81 in the anime (should match with the manga, but since I don't read it I'm not going to say this is what it says there):
Orochimaru-sama: I'd have had no problems if Uchiha Itachi was under my control. That seems to be an impossible dream, however. He is stronger than I. That's why... I left that organization (and here we also get to see that Orochimaru-sama's Dawn ring says "Void" ^_^x ).

I wouldn't say Itachi "forced him out" or anything of that manner. Most probably Orochimaru-sama noticed that Itachi had the sharingan which is the key to his dreams of becoming a god (that's what he thinks anyway) and thus got pissed and just left. Of course this is just speculation since we don't know, but there's nothing in there that even hints at Itachi even caring about Orochimaru-sama's presence; it was Orochimaru-sama who felt bothered and left. And yes, most probably he left before he lost his arms since this scene seems to take place just when he has arrived home after the Sarutobi fight. Also I don't remember seeing a ring from Dawn on him ever.
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Old 2004-09-15, 01:42   Link #55
Xarrais
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Itachi's biggest strength to me seems to be his intelgence. Oro is overconfident and it has burned him on more than one occasion. Itachi will almost never lose any battle because he wouldn't fight one he had a chance in hell of losing.

Don't know if he has done anything else in the manga but so far all we saw him do was totally embarass the journin of konoha. And the move he used on kakashi, though powerful, seemed to take a heavy toll on him as well.

So in the end if Itachi and Oro ever did fight Itachi would blow him away. Why ? because Itachi would not be lured into a fight where he was not at a great advantage.
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Old 2004-09-15, 07:33   Link #56
vampiro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nub.Itachi
wow how can u say that, Oro says it best himself here let me give a brief recap on what oro thinks of itachi.

-chapter 140-
-ORO- "First of all. If we had only gotten Uchiha Itachi to join us.There wouldnt have been any prolems at all. But that is just a dream to wish for.... because he is even stronger than my self..."
-Kabuto- "........"
-ORO- "That is why i left that organization"

He basically states that Itachi forced him out of the organization because he was stronger.. im pretty sure he had his arms in the organization i dunno bout you though.. they looked pretty active when he was fight sarutobi
okay then you are right, maybe i did have a strange translation then couse in my version oro said something like "Itachi would be a big problem" or something like that.. and i assumed big problems dont mean the same thing as that he is stronger.

but again, it was just the translation then
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Old 2004-09-15, 08:51   Link #57
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
No problem, frankly I didn't see the water wall the first time I read the manga



Yes Itachi replaced himself by a clone and Kakashi also replace himself by a Water Clone just before Itachi stabs him, does that means that Kakashi was a water clone from the beginning?

.
Well remeber that just before the Kakashi water clone he did The Water Wall, in this momnet everyone loose vision of kakshi, in this moment kakshi replace himself with the clone, and goes under water

The part of the explanation, remember that after this hapens Kurenai and Kakshi only apears in only to pages in the whole manga after this kakashi appears a couple of time, but more concern of Sasuke because now sasuke is the center stage.. also, when you mention the zabuza figth remeber that the arc was centring in Zabuza as the Main villain, after the itachi incident, if you see, his name is only mentioned like 4 times in the whole manga (most of them by sasuke who did not witness the fight, you have a point with the explanation, could it be that the explanation will be done the next moment Itachi appears?

, as i had the same perception of that fight as you had, and it makes itachi looks cooler, but it has always bother me how we coul make hand seals without taking his hand out of the cloth, unless he doesnt makes hand seals....
Well Well, still lest leave it like this, its getting too troublesome this arguement

also Can ORochimaru Summond Yondaime????? inst Yondaime Soul inside the dead God Stomach????
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Old 2004-09-15, 10:02   Link #58
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha_Rurik
Well remeber that just before the Kakashi water clone he did The Water Wall, in this momnet everyone loose vision of kakshi, in this moment kakshi replace himself with the clone, and goes under water
Exactly it's obviously what happened but can you prove me that Kakashi wasn't a Water clone from the beginning?
No, it's just stupid because it wasn't even hinted at all.

Quote:
The part of the explanation, remember that after this hapens Kurenai and Kakshi only apears in only to pages in the whole manga after this kakashi appears a couple of time, but more concern of Sasuke because now sasuke is the center stage.. also, when you mention the zabuza figth remeber that the arc was centring in Zabuza as the Main villain, after the itachi incident, if you see, his name is only mentioned like 4 times in the whole manga (most of them by sasuke who did not witness the fight, you have a point with the explanation, could it be that the explanation will be done the next moment Itachi appears?
I don't get your point, the explanation isn't important and didn't need to be corrected because it lasted only two pages?

It's very simple actually, if Kishimoto wanted to make us believe that Itachi was in fact a Kage Bunshin since the beginning Kakashi would have say something about it rather than to say that his jutsu speed was impossible to follow and then not to correct his thought after that.

Quote:
as i had the same perception of that fight as you had, and it makes itachi looks cooler, but it has always bother me how we coul make hand seals without taking his hand out of the cloth, unless he doesnt makes hand seals....
But they didn't say he did no hand seals at all even thought maybe the Mangekyou Sharingan allows to do that but frankly I don't think so, it would be too much overkill.

It was just say that it was too fast to be noticeable (under his big coat anyways ).
In the end your therory doesn't explain the situation because even if it was a Kage Bunshin nobody saw him made the hand seals to do the clone neither to do the Genjutsu counter nor the water protection in front of him.

Actually it's that simple : we never saw Itachi made a hand seal.

Quote:
also Can ORochimaru Summond Yondaime????? inst Yondaime Soul inside the dead God Stomach????
Ask Kishimoto, not me :P
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Old 2004-09-15, 10:22   Link #59
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter

Ask Kishimoto, not me :P
well ...actually...i was asking...to the one who said that Oro can summon yondaime..to fight Itachi.....and as you said......... only Kishimoto knows for sure

And for the Whole Other part lets leave it like it is.....(ist getting to troublesome for me to be making post )
we both have diferent opinion of waht happen...
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Last edited by Rurik; 2004-09-15 at 10:34.
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Old 2004-09-15, 15:30   Link #60
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The 4th wasn't sealed, Oro tried to summon him vs Sarutobi and it was stopped by Sarutobi's chakra. Therefore, Oro can still summon him as well as Kazekage.
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