AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-07-09, 13:57   Link #8081
Nosauz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 25
I mean eventhough South Park is mostly satire they pretty much are spot on, if you inject cash into your blood you too like Magic Johnson can live a relatively normal life. I mean with retroviral cocktails, it's been much easier to manage HIV virus from going into full blown AIDS and if you have seen Magic the dude looks good. Judging by the big push by big Pharma to create new revenue streams this like the malaria or tuberculosis cures will far out of the hands of the people who desperately need it.
Nosauz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-09, 14:17   Link #8082
Xellos-_^
Married
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Even if there is a cure, how are the poor people going to afford it? A hospice or euthanasia treatment will still be cheaper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
I mean eventhough South Park is mostly satire they pretty much are spot on, if you inject cash into your blood you too like Magic Johnson can live a relatively normal life. I mean with retroviral cocktails, it's been much easier to manage HIV virus from going into full blown AIDS and if you have seen Magic the dude looks good. Judging by the big push by big Pharma to create new revenue streams this like the malaria or tuberculosis cures will far out of the hands of the people who desperately need it.
i am not excusing big Pharm but the HIV virus has already mutate into different strain and will mutate into more strains. Even if you discover a cure it will only be temporary before the next mutation. it is already happening to a lot diseases that people thought were cure like TB.

Also malaria and TB is not exactly a big money maker, the people most affect by these 2 diseases are poor people. You make money form a rich man disease not a poor man disease.
__________________
Xellos-_^ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-09, 14:23   Link #8083
Nosauz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i am not excusing big Pharm but the HIV virus has already mutate into different strain and will mutate into more strains. Even if you discover a cure it will only be temporary before the next mutation. it is already happening to a lot diseases that people thought were cure like TB.

Also malaria and TB is not exactly a big money maker, the people most affect by these 2 diseases are poor people. You make money form a rich man disease not a poor man disease.
Still Malaria, TB cures and vaccines and hard pressed to be found in third world countries other than those donated by the developed world. I mean I understand that HIV mutates likes nobodies business due to being a retro virus, but the fact is, the triple anti viral cocktails, you can live a life of relative comfort even with HIV. Instead of survival of the fittest, it's become survival of the richest.
Nosauz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-09, 14:32   Link #8084
Xellos-_^
Married
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Still Malaria, TB cures and vaccines and hard pressed to be found in third world countries other than those donated by the developed world. I mean I understand that HIV mutates likes nobodies business due to being a retro virus, but the fact is, the triple anti viral cocktails, you can live a life of relative comfort even with HIV. Instead of survival of the fittest, it's become survival of the richest.
and the reason is because it is a poor man's disease.

not because Big Pharm is holding out a cure to make more money.
__________________
Xellos-_^ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-09, 14:37   Link #8085
Nosauz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
and the reason is because it is a poor man's disease.

not because Big Pharm is holding out a cure to make more money.
I'm pretty sure Big Pharma holds all the patents and patents on the derivatives of those drugs. Because of that only big pharma can produce them and if it's too expensive then big pharma doesn't unless some foundation pays an inflated cost for it. If you had a malaria producing plant south america it could be run infinitely more efficiently because you wouldn't have to pay for infrastructure to deliver and it would be mass production would marginalize the cost per vaccine. I think that's why I'm so vehemently opposed to copyright and intellectual property laws, because their meant to restrict those who are already at an economical disadvantage for something that should be common knowledge, like how salt is NaCl. This notion that information and facts can be "protected" and DNA sequences can be intellectual property just drives me nuts.
Nosauz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-09, 14:43   Link #8086
Xellos-_^
Married
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
I'm pretty sure Big Pharma holds all the patents and patents on the derivatives of those drugs. Because of that only big pharma can produce them and if it's too expensive then big pharma doesn't unless some foundation pays an inflated cost for it. If you had a malaria producing plant south america it could be run infinitely more efficiently because you wouldn't have to pay for infrastructure to deliver and it would be mass production would marginalize the cost per vaccine. I think that's why I'm so vehemently opposed to copyright and intellectual property laws, because their meant to restrict those who are already at an economical disadvantage for something that should be common knowledge, like how salt is NaCl. This notion that information and facts can be "protected" and DNA sequences can be intellectual property just drives me nuts.
unless it is something recent i think the patent on the tb/malaria drugs already expire. Everything else i agree with through.
__________________
Xellos-_^ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-09, 15:15   Link #8087
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
I'm pretty sure Big Pharma holds all the patents and patents on the derivatives of those drugs. Because of that only big pharma can produce them and if it's too expensive then big pharma doesn't unless some foundation pays an inflated cost for it. If you had a malaria producing plant south america it could be run infinitely more efficiently because you wouldn't have to pay for infrastructure to deliver and it would be mass production would marginalize the cost per vaccine. I think that's why I'm so vehemently opposed to copyright and intellectual property laws, because their meant to restrict those who are already at an economical disadvantage for something that should be common knowledge, like how salt is NaCl. This notion that information and facts can be "protected" and DNA sequences can be intellectual property just drives me nuts.
OK, but then, how do you pay for research? Research, not only of the blockbuster drug, but of the ten failures that accompany it? And hey, if there was a cheap way to make a medicine, what's to keep big pharma from using it?

(Now that I think of it... health code, that's what. If you want to change the way you make your drug, you've got to file a whole new approval request from the FDA or whatever. It's not cheap, and it doesn't extend the length of your original patent.)
Anh_Minh is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-09, 15:38   Link #8088
Nosauz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
OK, but then, how do you pay for research? Research, not only of the blockbuster drug, but of the ten failures that accompany it? And hey, if there was a cheap way to make a medicine, what's to keep big pharma from using it?

(Now that I think of it... health code, that's what. If you want to change the way you make your drug, you've got to file a whole new approval request from the FDA or whatever. It's not cheap, and it doesn't extend the length of your original patent.)
I understand the R&D costs of drug development, but that really doesn't excuse the infinite patents we see, and patenting the genomic code or the process to sequence strands of DNA. I mean cost to expense ratio is definitely significantly higher than what the R&D costs are and with the ability to renew patents and extend the shelf life of their drugs they sure as hell don't care about the consumer. Just look at Restless Leg Syndrome, apparently the reason this nifty disease was coined was because a diabetic drug instead of lowering blood sugar seemed to calm the legs, and now it's being marketed as a disease that could severely affect your life. Let's not even talk about the countless medications that have been found to have adverse side effects that are greater than the benefits their said to bestow. Just look at aspirin regiments, a recent study said that they actually are more likely to cause a heart attack if your taking them after a heart attack. If medicine was about curing people and making a profit I would be fine, but most of the expense in Big Pharma's budget actually goes to financing expensive ad campaigns that bombard us in print, television, the internet and even through out trusted physicians. All in the name of selling the next viagra. Honestly drugs should not be able to advertise because we as consumers should not be making decisions about our health based on a 30 second ad for lipitor or statins that is meant to appeal to our fears and our desires as consumers and not as patients.
Nosauz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-09, 16:12   Link #8089
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
I understand the R&D costs of drug development, but that really doesn't excuse the infinite patents we see,
What infinite patents? Haven't heard of patents with terms longer than 20 years.

Quote:
and patenting the genomic code or the process to sequence strands of DNA.
What's so weird about patenting those? Admittedly, calling genomic code an "invention" may be stretching it, depending on how it was obtained.

Quote:
I mean cost to expense ratio is definitely significantly higher than what the R&D costs are
Not sure what you mean there.

Quote:
and with the ability to renew patents and extend the shelf life of their drugs they sure as hell don't care about the consumer.
Nobody said they weren't in it for money, but that doesn't answer my question: if you trash all intellectual property law, how do you pay for research? I don't mind if, say, file sharing kills the next Britney Spears before she debuts. I'd rather like for there to be a cure for cancer or AIDS, though. And, as we've already established, pharmaceutical companies are in it for money. No money, no pharmaceutical company.

Quote:
Just look at Restless Leg Syndrome, apparently the reason this nifty disease was coined was because a diabetic drug instead of lowering blood sugar seemed to calm the legs, and now it's being marketed as a disease that could severely affect your life.
So if people want to fork out the money to get cured of restless leg syndrome, or for an ipad, or PVC figurines of anime characters... so what? And, really, who are you to decide for everyone that Restless Leg Syndrome isn't affecting quality of life and that those who have it should just suck it up when they don't have to?

Quote:
Let's not even talk about the countless medications that have been found to have adverse side effects that are greater than the benefits their said to bestow. Just look at aspirin regiments, a recent study said that they actually are more likely to cause a heart attack if your taking them after a heart attack.
Yeah, so? It's well known that for any given medicine, different people will react differently. Heck, it's well known that what most people consider food is deadly poison for others. You could ask for even more stringent studies and multiply the costs of R&D by ten, some side effects would still pass through the cracks. How is it even relevant to the question of intellectual property?

Quote:
If medicine was about curing people and making a profit I would be fine, but most of the expense in Big Pharma's budget actually goes to financing expensive ad campaigns that bombard us in print, television, the internet and even through out trusted physicians. All in the name of selling the next viagra.
So what's your alternative to big pharmaceutical companies? Driving the costs down by allowing small companies to kidnap hobos off the street and try random concoctions on them?

Quote:
Honestly drugs should not be able to advertise because we as consumers should not be making decisions about our health based on a 30 second ad for lipitor or statins that is meant to appeal to our fears and our desires as consumers and not as patients.
True. Advertising should be highly regulated. But that's not relevant to IP either, and you haven't offered an alternative to patents.

Do you want to go all communist and have the government finance all research? Doesn't seem very practical.
Anh_Minh is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-09, 16:30   Link #8090
Nosauz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 25
Well they are not going to cure AIDS or Cancer, it would be a golden goose killer. Why should genetic code be patented? The DNA for my mitochondria are passed down my mothers and their ability to produce ATP is not the design of some conglomerate so of course it makes no sense for DNA to patentable. They are facts of being humans. You imply that FDA costs are not worthwhile when they in fact are not stringent enough, there was a heart medication that actually caused liver failure in the among a majority of the users yet it was prescribed to patients so I don't see the idea that cutting the FDA oversight will miraculously make drugs cheaper, in fact they will be more expensive because they can sell with the mark up and pocket the FDA fees, balloning their profit margins.

I really don't see how you can claim genomic code to be any form of patentable idea. It's not it's a fact that your third chromosome start uugutttccccgguuctuc... etc, it doesn't change, Big pharma didn't purposely breed people to obtain that so why should these FACTS be protected as some form of intellectual property. It's like saying Napoleon losing at Waterloo is a patentable, when it's a fact. It's like saying 2+2=4 is patentable. Also patents have exemptions and renewals, and note that once the patent runs out they just combine drugs with other drugs and then repatent the forumulas which cover the composites.

Also government already finances the development in R&D for big pharma. It's what the NIH is for, they dole out money for big pharma to socialize the cost and reap the benefits at the cost of the consumer.
Nosauz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-09, 17:30   Link #8091
Kamui4356
Aria Company
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Well they are not going to cure AIDS or Cancer, it would be a golden goose killer.
And with that you've crossed into conspiracy nutter territory. Take a look around, get your bearings and step back over the line to rationality. For that to be the case it'd mean all pharmaceutical companies are conspiring to keep life saving drugs they could make them a huge profit on off the market. Do you honestly think that there are no companies that would benefit from such products? Putting something on the market that not only makes them money but also cuts into a competitor's pockets is something every corporation dreams of.
__________________
Kamui4356 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-09, 18:12   Link #8092
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Well they are not going to cure AIDS or Cancer, it would be a golden goose killer.
What Kamui said.

Quote:
Why should genetic code be patented?
Taking a broad view - patents exist to provide incentive for research, as well as finance the next batch of research. Therefore, if you think genetic research is worthwhile, it should be possible to extract patents out of it.

Quote:
The DNA for my mitochondria are passed down my mothers and their ability to produce ATP is not the design of some conglomerate so of course it makes no sense for DNA to patentable.
And hopefully it's not what's patented.

Quote:
They are facts of being humans. You imply that FDA costs are not worthwhile
Not at all. What I'm saying is that risk zero doesn't exist. It doesn't matter how much testing you do, there'll always be a risk. Regulations, such as those imposed by the FDA, are a compromise between how little risk you want, and how much money you're willing to pour into it (as well as a form of protectionism, but let's not get into that). While less stringent regs will make drugs riskier, making them more stringent will make all the new drugs across the board more expensive. You'll also be hit at some point by the law of diminishing returns - no matter how much money you've got to pour into this, at some point it won't appreciably make things safer. You can argue that the FDA needs stricter laws, but demanding that no drug ever have any unexpected side effect is silly. And that's why citing a couple of example of such occurrences isn't a valid argument. You have to detail how you want to strengthen existing rules, how much it's going to cost, and how safer everyone concerned will be.

Quote:
when they in fact are not stringent enough, there was a heart medication that actually caused liver failure in the among a majority of the users yet it was prescribed to patients so I don't see the idea that cutting the FDA oversight will miraculously make drugs cheaper, in fact they will be more expensive because they can sell with the mark up and pocket the FDA fees, balloning their profit margins.
And exactly how does that translate to "more expensive drugs"? What repealing the existing rules will do is flood the market with snake oil. The effect on price? Who knows? Not me and, I'll wager, not you.

For that matter, my claim wasn't that cutting the FDA out would make drugs cheaper. It was that making it harder, and thus more expensive, to get past it will make drugs more expensive.

Quote:
I really don't see how you can claim genomic code to be any form of patentable idea. It's not it's a fact that your third chromosome start uugutttccccgguuctuc... etc, it doesn't change, Big pharma didn't purposely breed people to obtain that so why should these FACTS be protected as some form of intellectual property. It's like saying Napoleon losing at Waterloo is a patentable, when it's a fact. It's like saying 2+2=4 is patentable. Also patents have exemptions and renewals, and note that once the patent runs out they just combine drugs with other drugs and then repatent the forumulas which cover the composites.
A complicated question, which depends, among other things, on what you mean by "patent genetic code". Obviously, you can't just snap out a random sequence and patent it. But, again, go back to why we have patents, and ask yourself if it applies.

Quote:
Also government already finances the development in R&D for big pharma. It's what the NIH is for, they dole out money for big pharma to socialize the cost and reap the benefits at the cost of the consumer.
Yes. But do you want the government to finance all of it?
Anh_Minh is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-09, 18:52   Link #8093
Xellos-_^
Married
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Well they are not going to cure AIDS or Cancer, it would be a golden goose killer.
Nosauz, YOU CAN'T CURE AIDS OR CANCER.

AIDS Virus that will/has already mutated form it original when it was first introduce into the human species and it will keep mutating so at best you can comeup with a cure for a certain strain of AIDS but will be useless against other strains.

Cancer is the result of your body making bad copies of its cells. You can't cure something like, you can just make a drug to tell your body to not do something.
__________________
Xellos-_^ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-09, 19:25   Link #8094
ChainLegacy
廉頗
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts, US
Age: 25
I wouldn't go that far. More like they can't be cured by current methods or medical thinking. However as our knowledge of biology increases there is no guarantee we do not advance to a level of curing any disease. Now, I'm a pessimist about that possibility (occuring in our lifetime) but I don't think we should weigh it out.
ChainLegacy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-09, 23:49   Link #8095
Urzu 7
Juanita/Kiteless
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New England
Age: 30
So in 1962, the U.S. gov't blew up a H-bomb in space.



Discover It, Then Blow It Up

The plan was to send rockets hundreds of miles up, higher than the Earth's atmosphere, and then detonate nuclear weapons to see: a) If a bomb's radiation would make it harder to see what was up there (like incoming Russian missiles!); b) If an explosion would do any damage to objects nearby; c) If the Van Allen belts would move a blast down the bands to an earthly target (Moscow! for example); and — most peculiar — d) if a man-made explosion might "alter" the natural shape of the belts.

The scientific basis for these proposals is not clear. Fleming is trying to figure out if Van Allen had any theoretical reason to suppose the military could use the Van Allen belts to attack a hostile nation. He supposes that at the height of the Cold War, the most pressing argument for a military experiment was, "if we don’t do it, the Russians will." And, indeed, the Russians did test atomic bombs and hydrogen bombs in space.

In any case, says the science history professor, "this is the first occasion I've ever discovered where someone discovered something and immediately decided to blow it up."

Code Name: Starfish Prime

The Americans launched their first atomic nuclear tests above the Earth's atmosphere in 1958. Atom bombs had little effect on the magnetosphere, but the hydrogen bomb of July 9, 1962, did. Code-named "Starfish Prime" by the military, it literally created an artificial extension of the Van Allen belts that could be seen across the Pacific Ocean, from Hawaii to New Zealand.

In Honolulu, the explosions were front page news. "N-Blast Tonight May Be Dazzling: Good View Likely," said the Honolulu Advertiser. Hotels held what they called "Rainbow Bomb Parties" on rooftops and verandas. When the bomb burst, people told of blackouts and strange electrical malfunctions, like garage doors opening and closing on their own. But the big show was in the sky.

Link to the article -

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=128170775
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic38963_5.gif
Urzu 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-10, 00:16   Link #8096
Khu
そんなやさしくしないで。。。
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NSW, Australia
Age: 20
...so why is this coming out 'now'?
Khu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-10, 00:39   Link #8097
justsomeguy
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Nosauz, YOU CAN'T CURE AIDS OR CANCER.

AIDS Virus that will/has already mutated form it original when it was first introduce into the human species and it will keep mutating so at best you can comeup with a cure for a certain strain of AIDS but will be useless against other strains.

Cancer is the result of your body making bad copies of its cells. You can't cure something like, you can just make a drug to tell your body to not do something.
I think you're just arguing the definition of the word "cure," but I have to disagree with several points.

Yes, HIV mutates. No, it cannot mutate into infinite different forms. Most individual virus particles just grab whatever DNA it can on its way out of the infected cell. A very large proportion are unable to reproduce further because they grabbed the wrong genes, or detrimental mutations that reduce later generations' ability to infect a cell. There is only so much mutation that HIV can undergo before it becomes something that is not HIV, possibly something relatively benign or easily treatable.

As for cancer, that is not the body making bad copies, it is specific cells making bad copies of cells. Research concentrates on making targeting those cells more precise to minimize destruction of healthy tissue, and whole-body poisoning like chemotherapy is something everybody is trying to move away from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz
uugutttccccgguuctuc... etc
Given that A is in DNA, and U replaces T in RNA, your sequence is not found in nature and might actually very well be patentable, if some sort of use can be found for it.
__________________
Currently watching: Kamen Rider Gaim, Ressha Sentai ToQger, Garo: Makai no Hana, SAO, Glasslip, Ao Haru Ride

Currently playing: Devil Summoner 2: Raidou Kuzunoha vs King Abaddon

Last edited by justsomeguy; 2010-07-10 at 01:07.
justsomeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-10, 02:06   Link #8098
Urzu 7
Juanita/Kiteless
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New England
Age: 30
Airport Closes After UFO Spotted In China





Look at the top pic. You can see the form of a craft with windows.



Quote:
Apparently air traffic control at Xiaoshan Airport in China spotted a UFO on radar and was forced to divert flights until E.T. phoned the f*** home.

Arcing over Zhejiang's provincial capital Hangzhou, the UFO appeared to glow with an eerie white light and left a bright trail in its wake.

Stunned witnesses reported seeing a comet-like fireball in the sky and a number of local residents took photos of the strange ball of light.

'The thing suddenly ran westwards fast, like it was escaping from something,' he said.
http://www.geekologie.com/2010/07/ai...r_ufo_spot.php



Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
I wouldn't go that far. More like they can't be cured by current methods or medical thinking. However as our knowledge of biology increases there is no guarantee we do not advance to a level of curing any disease. Now, I'm a pessimist about that possibility (occuring in our lifetime) but I don't think we should weigh it out.
You are correct, current methods can't cure it, but it's possible we can cure both one day. Heck, who knows, maybe nano machines can be used one day to treat cancer.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic38963_5.gif

Last edited by Urzu 7; 2010-07-10 at 02:32.
Urzu 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-10, 02:12   Link #8099
yoropa
Director
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Chinese Airline Shares Surge After UFO Sighting
http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/in...hina/19547777/
Quote:
Asian markets closed higher Friday. In China the Shanghai Composite Index climbed 2.3% to 2,471 and in Hong Kong the Hang Seng Index gained 1.6% to close at 20,379. Japan's Nikkei 225 Index added 0.5%, rising to 9,585.

Air travel must have been on everyone's minds in Asia after news broke that a UFO was detected over Hangzhou in eastern China.
People freaking out over things in the sky = good economy?

...

Hey America! I found the solution to your problems!
__________________
I question, and get an answer. I question the answer, and get anger. I question the anger, but nothing more is left.
yoropa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-07-10, 02:17   Link #8100
SaintessHeart
Ehh? EEEEHHHHHH?
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 25
It is a US spy plane.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
SaintessHeart is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
current affairs, discussion, international, news

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.