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Old 2010-07-13, 19:25   Link #13801
Renall
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What the hell is a "real name?" It's exactly as arbitrary as an alias.
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Old 2010-07-13, 19:26   Link #13802
DgBarca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Well, you're always bound to your real name, but you're not bound to aliases. I can change my internet alias and start using a different username, for instance. If I stop using Leafsnail, you could say that Leafsnail no longer exists.

In a similar way, if the idea of Kanon is discarded, perhaps Kanon no longer exists.

You can say this stuff about Kinzo if you like, but the fact is there's no basis in foreshadowing or anything else for it, while there is basis for saying that Kanon and Shannon are "aliases used only for work". That and we have golden truth confirmation on his body.

And if Kanon died, he'd still exist in the closet. It doesn't solve it.

Basically, I don't see any other way out. He isn't allowed to leave the room even if we find some ultra-clever method X, and dying won't allow him to escape. Personality death (with or without Shkannon) seems like the only option to me.
But when you change your internet alias you chose also a new name right ? And the clear fact of thinking "I choose X for new name" Makes you "claim" to have the name "X".
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Old 2010-07-13, 19:34   Link #13803
Leafsnail
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
What the hell is a "real name?" It's exactly as arbitrary as an alias.
Not really... the name you are born with, the name you have always used and the name that you are legally referred to as is a lot less arbitrary than a work related alias.
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Old 2010-07-13, 19:36   Link #13804
Renall
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Yeah but if we accept that a name can die and leave the body alive, how can we say that it applies in one instance and not others with no evidence that the red is permitted to discriminate that way?
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Old 2010-07-13, 19:37   Link #13805
Exilon
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Hey everyone =) I just finished reading Episode 6 and haven't read too much of the forums, however somethings have just sparked up in my mind. One of the things I wanted to get out here was to ask if there's any site or post with a comprehensive list of theories so far. In threads as long as these, it's very hard to keep up, specially when you don't know if your own theories have already been stated by someone else or not.

For starters, I'd like to know if anyone has proposed the theory that Erika doesn't really exist in (human)'reality' and her scenes are just like an 'illusion, or the inside of a braun tube' which leads to a certain result like many other 'supernatural events' that have occured in the game.
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Old 2010-07-13, 19:40   Link #13806
Volcanic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exilon View Post
Hey everyone =) I just finished reading Episode 6 and haven't read too much of the forums, however somethings have just sparked up in my mind. One of the things I wanted to get out here was to ask if there's any site or post with a comprehensive list of theories so far. In threads as long as these, it's very hard to keep up, specially when you don't know if your own theories have already been stated by someone else or not.

For starters, I'd like to know if anyone has proposed the theory that Erika doesn't really exist in (human)'reality' and her scenes are just like an 'illusion, or the inside of a braun tube' which leads to a certain result like many other 'supernatural events' that have occured in the game.
This site should do for now, although it doesn't have a *full* list.

Erika not existing at all in the human reality probably doesn't make sense due to the red involving her- however, the theory that you're looking for is the Erika Ball theory, where Erika basically represents another character we've known is real.
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Old 2010-07-13, 19:42   Link #13807
Leafsnail
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Because the name will still refer to you anyway. Even if Kinzo were to say "I'm not Ushiromiya Kinzo anymore!" everyone else, and all his legal documents, would still call him Kinzo, and Kinzo would still exist.

On the other hand, renouncing an alias means you can also renounce that which the alias entails.
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Old 2010-07-13, 19:54   Link #13808
Exilon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcanic View Post
This site should do for now, although it doesn't have a *full* list.

Erika not existing at all in the human reality probably doesn't make sense due to the red involving her- however, the theory that you're looking for is the Erika Ball theory, where Erika basically represents another character we've known is real.
Thanks for that site, although it doesn't really have the theories presented by people so far, which was what I was kinda looking for. It5's still very good to have notes like that, though.

Well, my theory wasn't exactly like that one. I don't think Erika represents anyone else and that red truth pertaining her are exclusive to the game board where she is playing. In other words, there's the real events of the island, and then there's the gameboard version of it, where Erika appears. they closely resemble each other but they are not the same as Erika does not find her way to Rokkenjima. supporting this is the endgame red truth, which is seemingly contradictory "I am Furudo Erika, the 18th human" "even if you joined us, there's 17 people" and the executed Erika's TIP.
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Old 2010-07-13, 20:07   Link #13809
Jan-Poo
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To be clear, at least on this forum, the "erika ball theory" suggests that anyone can be Erika as the "ball" can pass to any of the people in Rokkenjima and whoever has the "ball" is Erika. So Erika can use whatever piece is available for her to use.

"Ghosterika theory" usually simply refers to the fact that Erika doesn't exist but she has her own piece in the gameboard. While it's not necessary that Erika had the same piece both in EP5 and EP6 she still need to have a piece and only one during the game.


Exilon. I do believe that the gameboard is fictional and in the real world Erika never arrived on Rokkenjima. But that doesn't solve the problem.
Either the red texts work on the real world (and I really can't see ho they do), or they work for the fictional version.

If they work for the fictional version you need to explain what the hell is happening in the fictional version. Since red truths are the truth then it's clear that the fictional version must have a consistent story if red truths can work for it.
So basically in this fictional version the calculations do not match.

There are 17 people including Erika
and there are supposedly 18 people including Erika.

So who in the fictional version doesn't exist? Is it erika? or is it that shannon and kanon are the same person? This is the dilemma that EP6 makes us face.
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Old 2010-07-13, 20:13   Link #13810
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Not really... the name you are born with, the name you have always used and the name that you are legally referred to as is a lot less arbitrary than a work related alias.
Pardon me, but the legal name is by nature arbitrary - you don't even get to pick it. It is only different from any other names because it is tied into a mountain of documentation which comprises a person's legal identity. While this mountain is high, an insurmountable obstacle it is not.

A legal name does not have to be part of a social identity and I know quite a few people for whom it is not, and there are places which base the concept of legal name on the concept of social identity. "Real name" is a fiction, none is actually more real than any other.
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Old 2010-07-13, 20:20   Link #13811
Leafsnail
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Well we're kinda off the point here, anyway. I'd say that there's no evidence to suggest that Kinzo is anything other than dead, and that anyone other than Shannon and Kanon use aliases of any sort, but...

Kanon doesn't need to die... he only needs to stop existing. If his personality/ alias switches, it works fine.
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Old 2010-07-13, 20:24   Link #13812
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Well we're kinda off the point here, anyway. I'd say that there's no evidence to suggest that Kinzo is anything other than dead, and that anyone other than Shannon and Kanon use aliases of any sort, but...
Lord Goldsmith, Jessie......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Kanon doesn't need to die... he only needs to stop existing. If his personality/ alias switches, it works fine.
I still think the proper way to look for the solution is to find a way for Kanon to never have existed in that guest room.
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Old 2010-07-13, 20:29   Link #13813
chronotrig
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I still think the proper way to look for the solution is to find a way for Kanon to never have existed in that guest room.
Except it was said in red that someone named Kanon entered it and did not exit before the game stopped, and that this person was responsible for setting the chain lock and saving Battler.

After all the red saying that no one else can use Kanon's name, you'd be hard-pressed to make a theory where two Kanons exist. Plus, even if two of them exist, presumably they would both be "Kanons", so you couldn't use the red text that "Kanon wasn't in the room" anyways.
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Old 2010-07-13, 20:29   Link #13814
Leafsnail
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Lord Goldsmith... well, how can Kinzo be alive? Natsuhi would've had to kill this "Goldsmith" and throw him out the window, just like Eva said... or we can take Battler's stupid blue text, which is denied by the Jungfrau anyway.

Jessie is such a minor plot point I can't even remember it.

I suppose you could have a go, but Kanon definately entered the room, and he definately didn't leave it. He also definately saved Battler by doing up the chain lock.

Also, the "Noone can use Kanon's name but Kanon himself!" is ridiculously circular, heh.
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Old 2010-07-13, 20:32   Link #13815
Renall
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I understand your resistance to the "Kinzo is still alive through red text trickery" problem, because it is silly and stupid. It's also a natural consequence of allowing names to die without clear rules as to how people can be accounted as dead in red. The game does not actually give us any such rule.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2010-07-13, 20:36   Link #13816
Judoh
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I have a friend who thinks that the Gold uses a magic perspective to explain it's claim. He says the reason it works for I guarantee that this corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse...!! is that the red was sealed by saying it wouldn't be affective but the gold truth was never sealed so it can claim the same thing a red truth would with a magic perspective.

And under the human or magic perspective it is impossible for Kinzo to be anything other than a corpse.

after all we have George saying it himself in episode 3. If a body is dead for 3 days or if you cremate the body it's impossible to revive the dead. Because the Japanese use cremation magic like that doesn't work in the east. Kinzo was dead long before that So by red and gold standards there is no possible way for Kinzo to be the culprit since he's a corpse and due to the reasons above he can't be revived with magic either.
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Old 2010-07-13, 20:45   Link #13817
winter 923
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wow, i read a bit about this shkannon but some things are strange.
Why create the Kanon Persona in the first place? to erase her emotions so she could work better? sounds lame.
Is there a chance that her age is 19? what i found about her says 16.

The story isn't really observed from any point of view but rather told in Anges timeline, with the knowlage of the Bottles and only the results count the rest is irrelevant. Why? because we see, not often but from time to time, Shannon and Kanon in the same place with other people, which ofc shouldn't be possible.
Also .....someone help me here
Spoiler for in the end of ep6 it states:

Spoiler for while in ep3:

shouldn't 1 statement be wrong? or is he gona pull a Kinzo again in EP7 and change every previous statement.
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Old 2010-07-13, 20:48   Link #13818
Judoh
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Oh your right that's true The 15 people mentioned are dead!!

Emphasis mine. Just try and get around this! You can't because you have to overwrite all the previous reds to make it work.
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Old 2010-07-13, 20:54   Link #13819
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Oh your right that's true The 15 people mentioned are dead!!

Emphasis mine. Just try and get around this! You can't because you have to overwrite all previous reds to make it work with the final ones.
It doesn't say the word people. It just uses the counter for people. Since furniture isn't a standard word, it would probably be legitimate to use that counter to count them. I've spoken with a few native Japanese speakers, and they seemed to think it a legitimate use of the language.
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Old 2010-07-13, 21:02   Link #13820
Judoh
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
It doesn't say the word people. It just uses the counter for people. Since furniture isn't a standard word, it would probably be legitimate to use that counter to count them. I've spoken with a few native Japanese speakers, and they seemed to think it a legitimate use of the language.
Sure I understand that idea, but it does not lower the count to 16 + Erika because this is the device that is used with the red. Guaranteeing that Erika does not exist among the 17 is therefore the only possible outcome. So regardless of whether Shannon and Kanon are the same person or not they always count as two people. No problems so far?
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