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Old 2010-07-13, 21:07   Link #13821
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Sure I understand that idea, but it does not lower the count to 16 + Erika because this is the device that is used with the red. Guaranteeing that Erika does not exist among the 17 is therefore the only possible outcome. So regardless of whether Shannon and Kanon are the same person or not they always count as two people.
Only if you assume that there is a secret code to red text that defines every word to mean exactly the same thing all the time regardless of context. EP5 seems to have disproved this by saying (in effect), "Kinzo exists on the island", "Kinzo does not exist on the island".

In other words, this is back to saying that red is a literal truth, and is why solving the game based simply on red text is probably not going to give you any definite solution.
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Old 2010-07-13, 21:10   Link #13822
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
It doesn't say the word people. It just uses the counter for people. Since furniture isn't a standard word, it would probably be legitimate to use that counter to count them. I've spoken with a few native Japanese speakers, and they seemed to think it a legitimate use of the language.
But chrono I wanted to ask you since a while. Isn't it also true that what Beatrice and Battler used at the end of EP6 is also just a "人"?

Of course if you see it as an answer to Erika's red, Erika indeed used "人間".

But here we get to a big problem. If they are referring to the very same thing Erika said, then there's no possible way to get around the contradiction. Erika said it's 18, Battler and Beatrice say it's 17. And both of them said it in red.

What kind of trick is Ryuukishi pulling?
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Old 2010-07-13, 21:15   Link #13823
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What kind of trick is Ryuukishi pulling?
...time flowing backwards.

No, seriously.
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Old 2010-07-13, 21:17   Link #13824
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That doesn't sound very original after playing Braid.
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Old 2010-07-13, 21:17   Link #13825
Judoh
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Only if you assume that there is a secret code to red text that defines every word to mean exactly the same thing all the time regardless of context. EP5 seems to have disproved this by saying (in effect), "Kinzo exists on the island", "Kinzo does not exist on the island".
The context is clearly that everyone of those people are dead at a specific time. I think the explanation for those Kinzo reds is different since it's being used to trap someone. Shannon and Kanon have been counted as two people this far. There is no reason why they would suddenly only count as among the 16 for the sake of your own theory. It's not about the red being literal it's that this device has always been used with the red regardless of the situation.
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Old 2010-07-13, 21:18   Link #13826
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But chrono I wanted to ask you since a while. Isn't it also true that what Beatrice and Battler used at the end of EP6 is also just a "人"?

Of course if you see it as an answer to Erika's red, Erika indeed used "人間".

But here we get to a big problem. If they are referring to the very same thing Erika said, then there's no possible way to get around the contradiction. Erika said it's 18, Battler and Beatrice say it's 17. And both of them said it in red.

What kind of trick is Ryuukishi pulling?

Red text from EP3:
以上、15人は死亡。

Red text from EP6
申し訳ないが、
そなたを迎えても、
17人だ。


By the way that EP3 red text included a note:
※小説版で黒字に変換されている
- In the novel this line was changed to black characters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
It doesn't say the word people. It just uses the counter for people. Since furniture isn't a standard word, it would probably be legitimate to use that counter to count them. I've spoken with a few native Japanese speakers, and they seemed to think it a legitimate use of the language.
You know, we haven't exactly established that furniture should not be counted as humans. If you're going by that definition, then please subtract Genji in your theory as well, whom we have established as having admitting to being furniture in one scene.
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Old 2010-07-13, 21:24   Link #13827
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But chrono I wanted to ask you since a while. Isn't it also true that what Beatrice and Battler used at the end of EP6 is also just a "人"?

Of course if you see it as an answer to Erika's red, Erika indeed used "人間".

But here we get to a big problem. If they are referring to the very same thing Erika said, then there's no possible way to get around the contradiction. Erika said it's 18, Battler and Beatrice say it's 17. And both of them said it in red.

What kind of trick is Ryuukishi pulling?
Spoiler for size:



I think the real point here is that red isn't a good way to solve the game. If we go by the rock, paper, scissors explanation of the gold, red, and blue truths, then red is excellent at killing gold truths, but little else. Since blue truths can get around red by using all kinds of cheap wordplay games, the red can only be relied upon to give general hints about the game. In my opinion, the gold truth is a better way to get at the game. In other words, enough hints must be shown during the scenes of the game to make it solvable, without relying on the red text at all. This is required of Knox.
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Old 2010-07-13, 21:27   Link #13828
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But here we get to a big problem. If they are referring to the very same thing Erika said, then there's no possible way to get around the contradiction. Erika said it's 18, Battler and Beatrice say it's 17. And both of them said it in red.
I'm not sure Erika would be able to say in red that there are eighteen people on the island. She used "18人の人間" (eighteenth human).

So it's possible that Erika is the eighteenth person on the island but there is now only 17.
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Old 2010-07-13, 21:28   Link #13829
Jan-Poo
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I'm not sure that what you said answered my question.
You said that reds can be conflicting depending on the context and I agree that much.
But you can only say that Beatrice and Battler last red refered to humans only if the context is exactly the same context as Erika's last red.

Which means either the context is the same, and then you have two conflicting reds
or the context is different, and then you can't tell what's the "17" Battler and Beatrice are talking about.


Quote:
I'm not sure Erika would be able to say in red that there are eighteen people on the island. She used "18人目の人間" (eighteenth human).

So it's possible that Erika is the eighteenth person on the island but there is now only 17.
It doesn't matter. If Erika said "18th human" then Battler and Beatrice said "17th human" if they were referring to what Erika said. If they were not, then what were they talking about? They certainly didn't say "human".
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Old 2010-07-13, 21:29   Link #13830
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That doesn't sound very original after playing Braid.
Actually, I think this actually might be it.

Erika says that "all actions occur simultaneously", which is clearly not what we usually mean by a time stop. In one episode of The Real Ghostbusters which is otherwise not very memorable, Ray Stantz utters a particularly apt description of time: "Time is that which stops everything from happening simultaneously." (paraphrased from memory) The time stop on the guest room seems to behave in a similar manner -- once time is turned off, actions happen simultaneously.

All of them. They're described as happening in some kind of order, but do they really? I expect that a consistent interpretation of that bizarre state possible where Kanon rescues Battler, enters the room, doesn't leave it, and yet doesn't exist in it anyway.
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Old 2010-07-13, 21:34   Link #13831
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'm not sure that what you said answered my question.
You said that red can be conflicting depending on the context and I agree that much.
But you can only say that Beatrice and Battler last red refered to humans only if the context is exactly the same context as Erika's last red.

Which means either the context is the same, and then you have two conflicting reds
or the context is different, and then you can't tell what's the "17" Battler and Beatrice are talking about.
Ah, yeah, that's the one bit that I'm still not completely satisfied with. Not because it's impossible or unfair, but because it's a bit out of the blue.

What happens if we rephrase the last lines like this:
I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!
Sorry but...there are only 18 humans if you count corpses (namely, Kinzo's corpse).

If this is said implicitly, then the reds don't contradict, and the flow of conversation even matches. But it requires us to assume that this is what they meant, and left it as a riddle to preserve the secret a bit longer.
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Old 2010-07-13, 21:38   Link #13832
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It doesn't matter. If Erika said "18th human" then Battler and Beatrice said "17th human" if they were referring to what Erika said. If they were not, then what were they talking about? They certainly didn't say "human".
Erika said she is the 18th human.
Beato and Battler said there are 17 people.
They never said "17th".

All of the above are facts.
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Old 2010-07-13, 21:38   Link #13833
Jan-Poo
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Implicit assumptions...

I can only really accept them if they are obvious and to be expected.... like in previous confirmed cases. This case however is very ambiguous...

One of my original explanation is that Erika's red wasn't valid. Like the reds that were interrupted in EP4. However there is no sign of that happening in EP6... and she completed her sentence...


Quote:
Beato and Battler said there are 17 people.
They never said "17th".

All of the above are facts.

You don't get it. As chronotrig many times pointed out that "hito" is merely a counter used for persons.

Basically it goes like this:

Erika: "I'm the 18th human"

Beatrice and Battler: "Sorry but that's 17"


thinking that Battler and Beatrice explicitly said "17 persons" is wrong.
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Old 2010-07-13, 21:40   Link #13834
chronotrig
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Implicit assumptions...

I can only really accept them if they are obvious and to be expected.... like in previous confirmed cases. This case however is very ambiguous...
Well, that's the point. Remember how it was said that they both seemed to know what the other was planning to say, even though it was a mystery to the reader? That leaves an opening for an implicit assumption shared between the two groups that we haven't been told about.
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Old 2010-07-13, 21:42   Link #13835
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Erika said she is the 18th human.
You realize though that this is a story written by someone whose name suggests she's the "19th human". "18th human" could just be a title for her character and that would be why her red was painted over.
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Old 2010-07-13, 21:48   Link #13836
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You don't get it. As chronotrig many times pointed out that "hito" is merely a counter used for persons.

Basically it goes like this:

Erika: "I'm the 18th human"

Beatrice and Battler: "Sorry but that's 17"


thinking that Battler and Beatrice explicitly said "17 persons" is wrong.
No, anyone who translates that as "17th human" is wrong. Anyway, there no point in arguing about this when I'm positive that it cannot be translated as "17th person" or "17th human".

By the way, "hito" is no the correct reading for 人 in "17人だ。". Hitori, futari, sannin, yonnin, etc...
I know you already know this so I have no idea what you are arguing about.
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Old 2010-07-13, 21:56   Link #13837
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
You realize though that this is a story written by someone whose name suggests she's the "19th human". "18th human" could just be a title for her character and that would be why her red was painted over.
Wait... Hachijou Tooya is 八城十八 ... which makes her the 18th character. When I saw that, I thought she picked that pseudonym because she fancied herself the 18th person on Rokkenjima. You know how fans get so obsessed sometimes... 8) Is there a name for that kind of obsession where you start deluding yourself into think you are one of the people you've been researching/reading about? Holodeck Syndrome?

By the way... that makes Amakusa Juuza the 13th person somehow.... How, I wouldn't understand.
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Old 2010-07-13, 21:59   Link #13838
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
By the way... that makes Amakusa Juuza the 13th person somehow.... How, I wouldn't understand.
Counting from Kinzo as 1 along the Ushiromiya ranking ladder, that's the number allocated for Maria's father.
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Old 2010-07-13, 23:11   Link #13839
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Counting from Kinzo as 1 along the Ushiromiya ranking ladder, that's the number allocated for Maria's father.
It's different if your going by order of who was introduced in Episode 1. I'm not sure, but I think Shannon is either introduced 11th, 12th, or 13th. It's been awhile since I read it.
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Old 2010-07-14, 00:52   Link #13840
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
I've seen that B0mb theory posted before but I'm pretty sure that is just a guess based on the original Taiwan theory. I don't have a link to the original though.

The wiki(japanese) entry is here:
http://umineco.info/?考察投稿抜粋/碑文台湾説
There is no mention of bombs or B0mb anywhere on the page.

Personally, I first read the Taiwan theory on here and translated that page here.

If the original Taiwan theory did in fact contain the B0mb part then my apologies, but I would appreciate a link to the source.
This is what I have regarding that. Keep in mind that I do not know who posted this. It's just a copy/paste of what someone else posted on this forum and I don't have a link to any source. But it describes the B0mb part at the end in this one.

Spoiler for space:
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