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Old 2010-07-14, 13:40   Link #41
Darsovin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dredmorte View Post
We're talking about the M1 CARBINE.

According to the wikipedia, it's pretty dam light, and small! Perfect for the average person to shoot zombies in the head.
Ah yes, excellent weapon. Only downside is ammunition supply is kind of hard to come by. Only gun shops regularly stock the old .30 cal carbine ammo. More modern pistol caliber carbines are probably easy to feed, and just as light if not lighter since they are based on polymer construction.

But any carbine is typically easier to pick up and point and shoot than any pistol or full sized rifle.

The zombie survival guide doesn't recommend shotguns? Our stereotypical zombie repellent?
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Old 2010-07-14, 13:44   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darsovin View Post
The zombie survival guide doesn't recommend shotguns? Our stereotypical zombie repellent?
To be fair, the Zombie Survival Guide (by Max Brooks) doesn't recommend firearms overall due to their overall negatives. Melee weapons or silent, re-usable, ranged weapons are recommended.

Though, case in point, shotguns are bad because of their spread. You'll only damage multiple zombies with it but you might not kill them as the spread might miss their head. For extreme close combat it might be good, but then it might be too late.
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Old 2010-07-14, 13:45   Link #43
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Personally, I would skip the military assault rifles. In a situation where ammo is limited, full-automatic weapons are more of a hindrance than a help. The single-fire AR-15 series (M4 civilian models) or AK-47 civilian variant. They are much easier to find.

Either that or an RPK. It's one of the few machine guns that I know of that can be (relatively) easy to carry around.
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Old 2010-07-14, 13:48   Link #44
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Originally Posted by AtomicoX View Post
Though, case in point, shotguns are bad because of their spread. You'll only damage multiple zombies with it but you might not kill them as the spread might miss their head. For extreme close combat it might be good, but then it might be too late.
You'd be surprised at the accuracy of some shotguns. Some like the Benelli M4 Super 90, AA-12, and Saiga get pretty good accuracy. And shotguns aren't for accuracy. They are for overwhelming stopping power, which is more important.

Personally, though I mentioned the AR-15 series, I wouldn't use anything with a 5.56 round. It doesn't have enough raw stopping power. You gotta have bigger rounds.
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Old 2010-07-14, 13:51   Link #45
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Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity View Post
Personally, I would skip the military assault rifles. In a situation where ammo is limited, full-automatic weapons are more of a hindrance than a help. The single-fire AR-15 series (M4 civilian models) or AK-47 civilian variant. They are much easier to find.

Either that or an RPK. It's one of the few machine guns that I know of that can be (relatively) easy to carry around.
Single-shot of any kind is to prefer in this context (if one were to use firearms). Auto would result in more misses and waste of ammo. Hence pistols or semi-capable SMGs are to prefer in front of any assault rifle or machine gun if the choice is given. Lighter, roughly the same ammo capacity, smaller and still jsut as deadly.

Though, RPKs and its like would probably be preferred if you have a stationary defence and ammo to spare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity View Post
You'd be surprised at the accuracy of some shotguns. Some like the Benelli M4 Super 90, AA-12, and Saiga get pretty good accuracy. And shotguns aren't for accuracy. They are for overwhelming stopping power, which is more important.
I stand corrected on the shotguns.
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Old 2010-07-14, 13:55   Link #46
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RPKs ? Meh, the obvious choice should be an RPC!

On a more serious note, this whole gun talk seems a bit off-topic in relation to the series, but i guess it can't be helped given the nature of the subject at hand.
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Old 2010-07-14, 13:55   Link #47
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A silenced pistol would be especially useful but otherwise shooting with non silenced weapons would only attract more.
That nail gun Kouta used was really good but most nail guns are designed now with a sensor to detect when in contact with human skin or anything before it shoots even still if your lucky enough to find a gas powered one with the velocity to shoot from a distance you still have that hang up of the sensor not letting you shoot it.
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Old 2010-07-14, 13:56   Link #48
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Originally Posted by AtomicoX View Post

Though, case in point, shotguns are bad because of their spread. You'll only damage multiple zombies with it but you might not kill them as the spread might miss their head. For extreme close combat it might be good, but then it might be too late.
Absolutely not true. Common myth about shotguns is that they create a wide cone of death. My shotgun patterns a torso sized group of buckshot at 50 feet. Meaning I would only take out one zombie's head if I was aiming for it. That is the key point, you need to AIM a shotgun. And past 50 feet...well, you could always run right? Why waste the ammo?

Suppressors are legal in my state but the paperwork!!
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Old 2010-07-14, 13:57   Link #49
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Lol , i think that i'll made a nail gun too as i don't have weapons like you
+ a melee weapon , my Katana (not a real )
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Old 2010-07-14, 14:15   Link #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darsovin View Post
Ah yes, excellent weapon. Only downside is ammunition supply is kind of hard to come by. Only gun shops regularly stock the old .30 cal carbine ammo. More modern pistol caliber carbines are probably easy to feed, and just as light if not lighter since they are based on polymer construction.

But any carbine is typically easier to pick up and point and shoot than any pistol or full sized rifle.

The zombie survival guide doesn't recommend shotguns? Our stereotypical zombie repellent?
Hum... I though the old .30 cal magazines were easier to find than that since the whole point of the M1 is that it's light, it has a folding stock version (useful for combat in small spaces) and uses simple, easy to find ammo.

As for why a rifle is better than a shotgun: a rifle is more accurate, simple as that. If you're on the run from zombies and the whole of civilization has collapsed restocking ammo isn't something you can do easily so you only get what you carry with you. As such you want to waste as little ammo as possible so you don't have to be bogged down with extra bullets.

Also (and this is true in HOTD as shown in the 2nd ep) zombies guide themselves mostly by hear so a gunshot is a rather good way to give out your position so you should avoid shotting if possible. If you must shoot a rifle is more effective since it has higher long/mid-range accuracy than a shotgun so you can pick off the zombies heads before they reach you. This is the most effective tactic since zombies are slow so it's a good idea to make use of that fact. Short-range fighting is the worse thing to do when fighting them: they are stronger than a human and don't feel anything so they win almost always.

I could go on and on but I would just be reproducing the Zombie Survival Guide (by Max Brooks) so go read it, it's great for a laugh (and in the end to get you to stockpile food, ammo and other required stuff for long-term survival)
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Old 2010-07-14, 14:29   Link #51
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Originally Posted by Dextro View Post
Hum... I though the old .30 cal magazines were easier to find than that since the whole point of the M1 is that it's light, it has a folding stock version (useful for combat in small spaces) and uses simple, easy to find ammo.

Also (and this is true in HOTD as shown in the 2nd ep) zombies guide themselves mostly by hear so a gunshot is a rather good way to give out your position so you should avoid shotting if possible. If you must shoot a rifle is more effective since it has higher long/mid-range accuracy than a shotgun so you can pick off the zombies heads before they reach you. This is the most effective tactic since zombies are slow so it's a good idea to make use of that fact. Short-range fighting is the worse thing to do when fighting them: they are stronger than a human and don't feel anything so they win almost always.
Ammunition is easier to find depending on how popular the weapon is. Not many .30 cal carbines around, and I come from gun friendly states like Virginia and Florida. You will be up to your ears in pistol ammo, 9mm especially or .40S&W, (.45ACP is hard to find at least for me, and expensive!!). Shotgun and hunting rifle ammunition also very easy to find. The M1 carbine is a historical weapon and ammunition is manufactured for enthusiasts, not for frequent usage by the mass public. Only caveat to this is yes there ARE some more modern M1 carbines chambered for more popular cartridges such as the .45 ACP.

Your second paragraph goes to my point that if the zombie is FAR from you, it's not a threat and should not require you to fire your weapon. But if you are at self defense ranges, you want to maximize stopping power and at close range shotguns are hard to beat. Ask the Germans in WWI about the Remington trench brooms our doughboys brought over. In a war fought with high powered rifles and machine guns, the shogtun was practically decried as inhumane and savage by the Germans!
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Old 2010-07-14, 15:02   Link #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darsovin View Post
Ammunition is easier to find depending on how popular the weapon is. Not many .30 cal carbines around, and I come from gun friendly states like Virginia and Florida. You will be up to your ears in pistol ammo, 9mm especially or .40S&W, (.45ACP is hard to find at least for me, and expensive!!). Shotgun and hunting rifle ammunition also very easy to find. The M1 carbine is a historical weapon and ammunition is manufactured for enthusiasts, not for frequent usage by the mass public. Only caveat to this is yes there ARE some more modern M1 carbines chambered for more popular cartridges such as the .45 ACP.

Your second paragraph goes to my point that if the zombie is FAR from you, it's not a threat and should not require you to fire your weapon. But if you are at self defense ranges, you want to maximize stopping power and at close range shotguns are hard to beat. Ask the Germans in WWI about the Remington trench brooms our doughboys brought over. In a war fought with high powered rifles and machine guns, the shogtun was practically decried as inhumane and savage by the Germans!
It's not a point at all, if the zombie is close to you you're probably dead, end of story. The zombies are just way too powerful to fight at close-range. And if everyone in your party is using shotguns then can't help you because you would probably go down with the zombie.

Also you can silence a rifle but a silenced shotgun is a lot harder to come by or even to make using random bits and pieces found scattered around.
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Old 2010-07-14, 15:35   Link #53
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It's not a point at all, if the zombie is close to you you're probably dead, end of story.

Also you can silence a rifle but a silenced shotgun is a lot harder to come by or even to make using random bits and pieces found scattered around.
First define "close", our definitions may be different. Plus there are other variables too such as numbers and how fast they can close distance. All of these dictate when to apply force. When rifles are designed for engagement ranges of 50yds+ my argument is that the fight is avoidable and you should think of alternatives to stopping and making grey matter see the light of day. But if a shambling zombie, one or let's be fair, 5-6 are approaching me, I can fire, rack a new round, reacquire, and fire again, one shot into each head of each zombie within 10 seconds. Of course your mileage may vary depending on familiarity and practice with the weapon. And 6-8 shot capacity are about average for a tactical shotgun.

And you cannot "silence" a shotgun. Same is true with rifles. You can "suppress" shots but the biggest problem is the sonic boom of the projectile traveling through the air. THAT'S what causes the loud snap of a round being fired. You need to chamber sub-sonic ammo to properly suppress shots which effectively reduces the rifle's main advantage, projectile velocity and energy.

Not that I'm saying everyone should use a shotgun. As a team, a shotgunner and a rifleman make an excellent and adaptive combo. But for ranges of 10-20 feet, hard to beat the amount of damage a full load of buckshot will do, or even a 1 ounce lead slug.

Letting a zombie get close enough to grab you and liberate you of several mouthfuls of brain is obviously not the idea here. When I say close range I don't mean hand to hand!
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Old 2010-07-14, 15:49   Link #54
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Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
I think pistols would be preferable in small crowds or single one-on-one fighting. Less recoil than any other weapon (thus further accuracy on consecutive shots. Also depending on the type of handgun as a factor.)

They are also easy to carry around due to their compact size, so carrying more then one wouldn't be a bad thing unless you are wasting that for ammunition space.
Recoil and time between follow-up shots is highly dependent on skill. Take for example IPSC Champion shooter and Blackwater instructor Todd Jarrett, he can shoot a .45 1911 like it's a .22 pistol!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

And if you have to carry more than one gun, I would recommend consolidating calibers. Case in point is Glock pistols all accept magazines from other Glocks of the same caliber, as long as the magazine is not too small. So if you have a full size Glock 17 9mm and it fails, you can start using those same magazines in a sub-compact Glock 26 9mm as your back up weapon.

But yes if you have the opportunity to silently dispatch one of "them", a Gordon Freeman special wouldn't hurt...But I'd prefer a good old baseball bat or cricket bat, as our friends from overseas have already stated.
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Old 2010-07-14, 15:50   Link #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darsovin View Post
First define "close", our definitions may be different. Plus there are other variables too such as numbers and how fast they can close distance. All of these dictate when to apply force. When rifles are designed for engagement ranges of 50yds+ my argument is that the fight is avoidable and you should think of alternatives to stopping and making grey matter see the light of day. But if a shambling zombie, one or let's be fair, 5-6 are approaching me, I can fire, rack a new round, reacquire, and fire again, one shot into each head of each zombie within 10 seconds. Of course your mileage may vary depending on familiarity and practice with the weapon. And 6-8 shot capacity are about average for a tactical shotgun.

And you cannot "silence" a shotgun. Same is true with rifles. You can "suppress" shots but the biggest problem is the sonic boom of the projectile traveling through the air. THAT'S what causes the loud snap of a round being fired. You need to chamber sub-sonic ammo to properly suppress shots which effectively reduces the rifle's main advantage, projectile velocity and energy.

Not that I'm saying everyone should use a shotgun. As a team, a shotgunner and a rifleman make an excellent and adaptive combo. But for ranges of 10-20 feet, hard to beat the amount of damage a full load of buckshot will do, or even a 1 ounce lead slug.

Letting a zombie get close enough to grab you and liberate you of several mouthfuls of brain is obviously not the idea here. When I say close range I don't mean hand to hand!
Well I went and checked "the guide" and I guess we are both right:
Quote:
6. The Shotgun
At close range against human attackers, this weapon reigns supreme. Against the living dead this is not entirely true. A good twelve-gauge shotgun can literaly blow a zombie's head off. However, the longer the range, the greater the the pellet dispersal pattern, and the lesser chance of skull penetration. A solid slug would have the same effect as a rifle, even at greater range (provided the barrel is long enough), but in that case why not just use a rifle? What shotguns do posses is stopping power. The scattering shot acts as a solid wall, whereas a rifle bullet might pass clean through pr miss the target altogether. If you are cornered, or on the run, and need time to escape, a good shotgun blast can send several zombies sprawling. The downside of a shotgun is that the large, twelve-gauge shells leave less room for other equipment. This must be considered if a long journey is required.
Of course this is just a book made for laughs and not in any serious tone :P
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Old 2010-07-14, 15:56   Link #56
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Eh, it's serious as serious can be in the realm of fiction. I wouldn't be surprised if most of these "facts" would ring true. Though, yes, ultimately it's for laughs, but it tries hard.

Btw, nice to see it got its own thread now lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
I don't have good eyesight, nor do I have experience in firearms - so I think regardless, A shotgun or a Sub machinegun with controlled bursts would be the best thing for me.

If out of ammo...

rely on the crowbar. My opinion, anyways.
Same here. When it comes to firearms I'd be horrible. Hell I've never even touched one, no less operated one. I'm more dangerous to fellow humans than the zombies with one I'd imagine. It's why I'd stick to melee weapons. Maybe a pistol, but that's as far as I would go. Last resort weapon.

For some reason my skiing outfit would be quite nice as it provides some bite protection...
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Old 2010-07-14, 16:06   Link #57
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Well I went and checked "the guide" and I guess we are both right:


Of course this is just a book made for laughs and not in any serious tone :P
Yeah this is mostly mental masturbation anyway, especially for a gun-otaku like me.

The book is probably right about carrying shot shells. Though you can carry over a hundred in a bandolier or on a vest, that's still a lot less than rifle shots for a lot more weight. I could probably carry eight magazines of rifle ammo, each one carrying 30 shots. That's a lot more opportunities. Quicker to reload too.

One downside for a shotgun that's not box fed is loading! Takes about one second per shell....(if you're good)
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Old 2010-07-14, 16:11   Link #58
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Originally Posted by AtomicoX View Post

Same here. When it comes to firearms I'd be horrible. Hell I've never even touched one, no less operated one. I'm more dangerous to fellow humans than the zombies with one I'd imagine. It's why I'd stick to melee weapons. Maybe a pistol, but that's as far as I would go. Last resort weapon.
That's why I'd definitely be the "Kohta" of any zombie apocalypse survival group. I'm no expert, but enough of an enthusiast to recognize and operate most weaponry available, to civilians at least.

You can use my shotgun. Just follow some basic rules of gun safety, finger off the trigger and don't point it at anything you aren't willing to destroy!
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Old 2010-07-14, 16:16   Link #59
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In a perfect world, I would immediately seek out individuals such as Meplat and Trail Snake, for they are heavily armed and well-versed. It also helps that Trail Snake has the following set up:

Spoiler for Preparedness:
Realistically, I'd be chilling out with my Winchester 1912, detachable bayonet, and Springfield Professional. Also, a machete. I could carry around the AR-15, but the 5.56mm doesn't give me much confidence. Against a living person, it's great for wounding. Against a zombie, that doesn't mean much.

I probably won't survive long, but chances are I'll go out drunk. Or with a pipebomb. Killing Floor don't fail me now...
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Old 2010-07-14, 16:47   Link #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity View Post
You'd be surprised at the accuracy of some shotguns. Some like the Benelli M4 Super 90, AA-12, and Saiga get pretty good accuracy. And shotguns aren't for accuracy. They are for overwhelming stopping power, which is more important.
The accuracy of a shotgun isn't dependent on the weapon itself. It's to do with barrel length and chokes.

The longer the barrel, the more time the pellets are accelerated to speed within the wad and the tighter the forcing cone or "choke" is, the smaller the grouping of pellets are down range.

As for my preparations against the undead...

I'm set anyway, I live in the country several kilometres fromthe nearest population centre and I've got a small arsenal at my disposal if anything goes awry.

My pride and joy of that arsenal is a paramilitary grade sniper rifle so I'm more than ready for picking off the undead at five hundred plus metres if they try to enter my property.
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