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Old 2010-07-13, 08:13   Link #2201
LuckyCat
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
The two aren't comparable at all. Goku knew how strong Cell would be after the sensu bean, since he'd fought him at full power before. Vegeta had no way in hell of knowing how strong Cell would get after becoming absorbing 18 yet he never even considered the possibility that his own power wouldn't be enough to handle it.
Goku didn't know just how strong Cell was either, as Cell was holding back until he fought Gohan. Goku also lets Freeza get to 100% full power without knowing if he can win, and he really didn't seem to care if Majin Buu got unleashed or not. It's just a trait the Saiyans have, for better or worse.
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Old 2010-07-13, 12:04   Link #2202
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by Shiosai View Post
Goku didn't know just how strong Cell was either
He did actually. Goku pushed Cell quite a bit. If Cell still had this huge hidden power left you'd think he would've used it against the guy who blew the upper half of his body off.

Quote:
as Cell was holding back until he fought Gohan.
...What? Now you're just making things up, that was never stated.

And either way it doesn't really matter because a sensu bean doesn't make people grow more incalculably powerful, it just heals their wounds and fatigue. Goku knew how powerful Gohan truly was and knew he could take and beat everything full health Cell had thrown at him.

Quote:
Goku also lets Freeza get to 100% full power without knowing if he can win
Considering Freeza was at 50% all Goku basically had to do was "Could I still beat him if he doubles his ki?" And he won didn't he? It was a calculated risk that turned out well, Vegeta's was not. Twice in a matter of days.

Quote:
and he really didn't seem to care if Majin Buu got unleashed or not.
Grasping for straws much? Yes he did, but there was not much he could do when Vegeta was going around blowing hundreds of people up unless Goku would fight him. And then when they were fighting Goku constantly kept telling Vegeta to stop their fight and go help Gohan, while Vegeta just went "Pfft, we're Saiyans man, there's no way that Majin Buu guy can be at our level."

Why you're making an argument out of this, I'm not sure. I'm not saying you have to dislike that aspect of Vegeta, I'm just saying I do. Goku has this desire and curiosity to see and fight stronger opponents too, but he's nowhere near as overconfident and reckless.
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Old 2010-07-13, 14:05   Link #2203
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
He did actually. Goku pushed Cell quite a bit. If Cell still had this huge hidden power left you'd think he would've used it against the guy who blew the upper half of his body off.
Goku didn't know Cell's full potential. Furthermore, he knew he couldn't win. The whole point of his fight with Cell was to show Gohan how Cell fights, since he lacked the sufficient power to destroy Cell.

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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
...What? Now you're just making things up, that was never stated.

And either way it doesn't really matter because a sensu bean doesn't make people grow more incalculably powerful, it just heals their wounds and fatigue. Goku knew how powerful Gohan truly was and knew he could take and beat everything full health Cell had thrown at him.
Yes it was stated. Cell only began using his full power shortly after his battle against SSJ2 Gohan began. And saiyans do receive power boosts after recovering from battle, whether it be by rest or senzu beans.

And once again, Goku was completely ignorant as to how powerful Cell could really become. He merely gambled on Gohan being the earth's best hope, since he knew that Gohan had the most potential out of everyone.

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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Considering Freeza was at 50% all Goku basically had to do was "Could I still beat him if he doubles his ki?" And he won didn't he? It was a calculated risk that turned out well, Vegeta's was not. Twice in a matter of days.
It was still an overly bold move on his part. Freeza hadn't pulled out all of his cards, which meant that Goku didn't know what Freeza was fully capable of.
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Old 2010-07-13, 16:24   Link #2204
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I dunno why you guys are being so contentious...I mean, it sorta sounds like you're arguing the same point at the bottom of it. Saiyans are a brawly bunch who like the challenge of a good fight. It's in their blood. Goku just tends to be less of a dick about it.
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Old 2010-07-13, 17:09   Link #2205
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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^ I'm not denying any of this. You've summed it nicely. I'm just saying that Endless Twilight got a few things wrong in his analysis. That's all .
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Old 2010-07-13, 18:12   Link #2206
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Oh yeah, I'm just having fun with this, too
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Goku has this desire and curiosity to see and fight stronger opponents too, but he's nowhere near as overconfident and reckless.
I don't think he's as cold-blooded, but he is still pretty reckless. I'm not letting him off the hook for Majin Buu either. If he wanted, he could've gone SSJ3 and put Vegeta out of commission, but it seems like he just preferred a good fight.
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Old 2010-07-14, 00:21   Link #2207
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Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
Why would they continue onto that pile of junk, seriously?
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Added to that, GT is not even Toriyama's work. It has no chance of being put into Kai. There's nothing to "cut" from, since it's not even an adaptation.
I am not a big DB fan, I just watch it for the lulz but seriously I could not for the life of me tell the difference between the people who worked in this thing or wrote the story... its just one big AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH from start to finish..

I could even argue that the whole thing was junk(DB, DBZ, DBGT, DB++++) , but very funny n entertaining junk nonetheless
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Old 2010-07-14, 14:51   Link #2208
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Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
I am not a big DB fan, I just watch it for the lulz but seriously I could not for the life of me tell the difference between the people who worked in this thing or wrote the story... its just one big AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH from start to finish..

I could even argue that the whole thing was junk(DB, DBZ, DBGT, DB++++) , but very funny n entertaining junk nonetheless
That's fine, but you're in a very slim minority. Most people can tell GT is not Toriyama's work, and prefer the canon material by leaps and bounds. I don't take DBKai too seriously either, but I at least expect it to be internally consistent and GT just does not fit the bill.
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Old 2010-07-14, 19:09   Link #2209
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Within the minority? How so? were people polled about this n I didn't notice?... I mean, if you guys didn't mention that there were more than 2 people involved in the DB saga (as far as writing I guess) I wouldn't have noticed any difference.. I mean there is nothing shocking enough to make me think... dam you non-Toriyama-guys! you just screw up the ever-growing well-written AHHHHHHHHH for all of us!

From where to where does the canon run? or where does the non-Toriyama work start?

I know GT was a bit over the top but given the natural progression of DB it didn't shock me as odd .. I mean, there was one strong guy, Goku defeated it.. and then came an even stronger guy n Goku defeated him... and so on until things grow outrageously out of proportion (or GT sized lol)
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Old 2010-07-14, 19:59   Link #2210
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Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
Within the minority? How so? were people polled about this n I didn't notice?... I mean, if you guys didn't mention that there were more than 2 people involved in the DB saga (as far as writing I guess) I wouldn't have noticed any difference.. I mean there is nothing shocking enough to make me think... dam you non-Toriyama-guys! you just screw up the ever-growing well-written AHHHHHHHHH for all of us!

From where to where does the canon run? or where does the non-Toriyama work start?

I know GT was a bit over the top but given the natural progression of DB it didn't shock me as odd .. I mean, there was one strong guy, Goku defeated it.. and then came an even stronger guy n Goku defeated him... and so on until things grow outrageously out of proportion (or GT sized lol)
I think it was pretty easy to tell it changed when the dragonballs suddenly and without any reason start getting spread over the galaxy instead of the planet and when goku becomes a kid again...

But hey, I even believe there were some good moments in the GT storyline (mainly the Baby saga, I thought that one was interesting) and I yet I still think it shouldn't ever be touched again on account of the show being average at best overall.
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Old 2010-07-14, 21:57   Link #2211
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
Within the minority? How so? were people polled about this n I didn't notice?... I mean, if you guys didn't mention that there were more than 2 people involved in the DB saga (as far as writing I guess) I wouldn't have noticed any difference.. I mean there is nothing shocking enough to make me think... dam you non-Toriyama-guys! you just screw up the ever-growing well-written AHHHHHHHHH for all of us!

From where to where does the canon run? or where does the non-Toriyama work start?

I know GT was a bit over the top but given the natural progression of DB it didn't shock me as odd .. I mean, there was one strong guy, Goku defeated it.. and then came an even stronger guy n Goku defeated him... and so on until things grow outrageously out of proportion (or GT sized lol)
No one was polled but it is a pretty safe bet considering you're the first person I've ever encountered that is like that. GT fails to capture the fun, laid back atmosphere of Dragonball that it tried to bring back. Unfortunately it also did not capture the martial arts/superhero charm that DBZ had. Many characters did not act the way they did in canon work. Now, of course these are all opinions. But they are pretty widely agreed sentiments.
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Old 2010-07-15, 05:55   Link #2212
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Goku didn't know Cell's full potential. Furthermore, he knew he couldn't win. The whole point of his fight with Cell was to show Gohan how Cell fights, since he lacked the sufficient power to destroy Cell.
Then what was that warp kamehame for? I don't know about you, but when a fighter blows off another fighter's entire upper body, it sure as hell looks to me like they're trying to win.

And yes he might not have known Cell's exact full potential, but considering the trouble he gave him without any huge power up from Cell I'd say it was a fairly safe bet. Why would Cell have eaten that sensu bean anyway if he hadn't been considerably drained by fighting Goku? That's a sign right there that Goku pushed him far enough to afford to make certain assumptions and take certain calculated risks. Which paid off in the end.

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Yes it was stated. Cell only began using his full power shortly after his battle against SSJ2 Gohan began. And saiyans do receive power boosts after recovering from battle, whether it be by rest or senzu beans.
Well how do you know just how significant that increase to full power was? We never saw him do anything but get beaten the crap out of by SSJ2 Gohan, so it's impossible to say if his full power was that much higher than the one he used against Goku.

And yes I'm aware Saiyans do get stronger after recovering from battle from sensu beans, but we were talking about Cell here and he is not one hence why I said it in that manner.

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It was still an overly bold move on his part. Freeza hadn't pulled out all of his cards, which meant that Goku didn't know what Freeza was fully capable of.
I'm not saying it wasn't bold, it certainly was. I've already admited Goku lets the thrill of the fight get to him as well sometimes, and I never said he was any role model because he's certainly not exemplary either when it comes to that, but at least he never looks down on the opponent the way Vegeta does and he's not as misguidedly confident and arrogant either. When Kaiou tells Goku he mustn't let Freeza get to 100% power, IIRC Goku is just like "I know it's dangerous but sorry I just can't help it" While when Vegeta does things like that he's more like "Hmph go ahead and power up all you want there's no way a weakling like you can ever beat a great SSJ like me" And basically, the louder they bark the more pathetic they look when they get what's coming to them. That's why Goku's occurances bother me less than Vegeta's, though they're still somewhat irresponsible.

Like I've said before, Future Trunks is actually my favorite fighter in the series, cause inexperienced though he might be, he doesn't screw around or take victory for granted and does all he can to bring the fight to a finish as soon as possible. It's great to see a Saiyan like that who isn't blinded by overconfidence and/or thirst for battle.

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Originally Posted by Shiosai View Post
I don't think he's as cold-blooded, but he is still pretty reckless. I'm not letting him off the hook for Majin Buu either. If he wanted, he could've gone SSJ3 and put Vegeta out of commission, but it seems like he just preferred a good fight.
Well I think he avoided doing that in order not to completely shatter Vegeta's pride. And he convinced Vegeta in the end anyways. But as we know the man had other plans.
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Old 2010-07-15, 10:15   Link #2213
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Well I think he avoided doing that in order not to completely shatter Vegeta's pride. And he convinced Vegeta in the end anyways. But as we know the man had other plans.
But he's still putting pride ahead of other people's safety, which is the same thing Vegeta is about to do in Kai.
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Old 2010-07-15, 12:16   Link #2214
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Then what was that warp kamehame for? I don't know about you, but when a fighter blows off another fighter's entire upper body, it sure as hell looks to me like they're trying to win.
Goku gave it his all. I'm not arguing against this. Your point?

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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
And yes he might not have known Cell's exact full potential, but considering the trouble he gave him without any huge power up from Cell I'd say it was a fairly safe bet. Why would Cell have eaten that sensu bean anyway if he hadn't been considerably drained by fighting Goku? That's a sign right there that Goku pushed him far enough to afford to make certain assumptions and take certain calculated risks. Which paid off in the end.
Might not have known? He DIDN'T know Cell's full potential. And Cell was suppressed when he fought Goku, so of course the weaker Goku would give him a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Well how do you know just how significant that increase to full power was? We never saw him do anything but get beaten the crap out of by SSJ2 Gohan, so it's impossible to say if his full power was that much higher than the one he used against Goku.
I don't know how significant his increase to full power was. But that's not the point. Cell wasn't fighting at full power against Goku and only began using his full power against SSJ2 Gohan.

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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
And yes I'm aware Saiyans do get stronger after recovering from battle from sensu beans, but we were talking about Cell here and he is not one hence why I said it in that manner.
Well, Cell does have saiyan cells inside him. That might allow him to receive power boosts after recovering from heavy damage.
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Old 2010-07-15, 16:11   Link #2215
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Goku gave it his all. I'm not arguing against this. Your point?
You are actually. You said the whole point of the fight was just to show Gohan how Cell fought. But there was clearly more to it than that or Goku wouldn't have tried (and nearly succeeded) right there and then to, you know, kill Cell himself.

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Might not have known? He DIDN'T know Cell's full potential. And Cell was suppressed when he fought Goku, so of course the weaker Goku would give him a challenge.
...I'm not denying he didn't know Cell's full potential. The "Might" verb tense doesn't always literally imply the existence of doubt.

And yes you've already said a million times Cell wasn't fighting at full power against Goku and I've already replied to that, so let's not start repeating ourselves and prolong an already pointless argument because of your desire for "winning" and proving me "wrong" again.
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Old 2010-07-15, 22:25   Link #2216
CuXe
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
No one was polled but it is a pretty safe bet considering you're the first person I've ever encountered that is like that. GT fails to capture the fun, laid back atmosphere of Dragonball that it tried to bring back. Unfortunately it also did not capture the martial arts/superhero charm that DBZ had. Many characters did not act the way they did in canon work. Now, of course these are all opinions. But they are pretty widely agreed sentiments.
mmm If I was told that DB had 2 different writers then perhaps I would start trying to differentiate the series of events from one another but without someone telling me that there were 2 writing styles involved I wouldn't even have thought of it... I am pretty sure it is the same for people who are not told this fact because after all, the writing style and story telling is not all that brilliant in DB and that is not what comes thru.... DB is all about overblown-battles unless I missed the part where the story telling becomes deep and meaningful.

So while it may be a widely agreed sentiment amongst the people who already know Toriyama didn't have any part in GT.... it would be pretty safe to say that most people who don't know this fact didn't even notice the transition because nothing outrageous happens to make people think otherwise.

Now ... I don't know what you mean by "capturing the martial arts/superhero charm" ... this is the first time Ive read such quote referring to DB in general. I mean if this was an anime such as Death note or GITS where there is a lot of character development and complex twists I would agree that subtle changes are noticeable but saying something like that about DB is reading wayy too much into it, imo off course....

My POV is that all of DB (DB, Z, GT ++) is equally amusing and If I was to consider a certain part "Trash" I would have to consider the whole thing trash... which it isn't! I mean I didn't watch DB to learn something and neither was I drawn to it by the amazing story-telling... I watched it just to be entertained by the impossible fights which progressively got harder and harder and harder, including space travel which I should point out, given the nature of DB it is not an outrageous thing cause after all there were Sayins traveling through space in Z and Piccolo was from another planet to boot ...so having the balls scattered around the universe doesn't strike me as odd.

Last edited by CuXe; 2010-07-15 at 22:49.
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Old 2010-07-16, 00:44   Link #2217
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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You are actually. You said the whole point of the fight was just to show Gohan how Cell fought. But there was clearly more to it than that or Goku wouldn't have tried (and nearly succeeded) right there and then to, you know, kill Cell himself.
No I'm not. Stop being so adamant all the time. Goku tried his best when fighting against Cell, while at the same time showing Gohan how Cell fights. What's so complicated about this? And Goku didn't come close to defeating Cell. He only blew off everything above Cell's torso, and we know that all Cell needs to regenerate is a single cell.

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And yes you've already said a million times Cell wasn't fighting at full power against Goku and I've already replied to that, so let's not start repeating ourselves and prolong an already pointless argument because of your desire for "winning" and proving me "wrong" again.
There is no desire for "winning" or proving you "wrong" again. Maybe you're the one who likes to be "right" all the time, but that's not what this is about. I'm just stating facts. There's no interpretation here.
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Old 2010-07-16, 08:59   Link #2218
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Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
mmm If I was told that DB had 2 different writers then perhaps I would start trying to differentiate the series of events from one another but without someone telling me that there were 2 writing styles involved I wouldn't even have thought of it... I am pretty sure it is the same for people who are not told this fact because after all, the writing style and story telling is not all that brilliant in DB and that is not what comes thru.... DB is all about overblown-battles unless I missed the part where the story telling becomes deep and meaningful.

So while it may be a widely agreed sentiment amongst the people who already know Toriyama didn't have any part in GT.... it would be pretty safe to say that most people who don't know this fact didn't even notice the transition because nothing outrageous happens to make people think otherwise.

Now ... I don't know what you mean by "capturing the martial arts/superhero charm" ... this is the first time Ive read such quote referring to DB in general. I mean if this was an anime such as Death note or GITS where there is a lot of character development and complex twists I would agree that subtle changes are noticeable but saying something like that about DB is reading wayy too much into it, imo off course....

My POV is that all of DB (DB, Z, GT ++) is equally amusing and If I was to consider a certain part "Trash" I would have to consider the whole thing trash... which it isn't! I mean I didn't watch DB to learn something and neither was I drawn to it by the amazing story-telling... I watched it just to be entertained by the impossible fights which progressively got harder and harder and harder, including space travel which I should point out, given the nature of DB it is not an outrageous thing cause after all there were Sayins traveling through space in Z and Piccolo was from another planet to boot ...so having the balls scattered around the universe doesn't strike me as odd.
Consider this: back when GT first aired I was on the edge of my seat waiting for it. I had no idea who Toriyama was back then and all I knew was that Dragonball was coming back for more so I woke up early Saturday morning to watch the first episode of GT...

...and it was crap. There I was, a 15 year old kid, looking at the tv and dropping the freaking show on the 3rd episode. I latter went and watched the whole thing but I still think it was a bad show. Like I said it had some moments but that's about it. It just wasn't the same as the rest of Dragonball. And it wasn't just me, everyone I knew back then thought the same thing and virtually everyone I know by now still does. I'm even the oddball who defends GT has some good moments but even I don't think it's good, just average.

In fact the only other moment in Dragonball that I managed to stop watching because the story wasn't working for me was during the Garlic Jr. arc and guess who also didn't wrote that one?
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Old 2010-07-16, 10:49   Link #2219
ChainLegacy
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^Exactly, and I was even younger... probably 12-13 when the GT dub came out in America. I didn't have any preconceived notions about the subject (at the time, I thought Pokemon and Dragonball Z were made by the same company LOL because I didn't even know what anime was). Despite all my naivete, I still picked up that this wasn't like the past two Dragonballs at all. The story was just... stupid at most parts and the characters were misrepresented. And Garlic Jr. is a good comparison because that is also the only part of DBZ I really didn't like.

And I said martial arts/superhero charm, I think you're the one reading too much into what I wrote. The plot certainly isn't deep, but the atmosphere is key in Dragonball series, and in my opinion it changes in GT...
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Old 2010-07-16, 15:45   Link #2220
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
There is no desire for "winning" or proving you "wrong" again. Maybe you're the one who likes to be "right" all the time
Yes, because I'm the one prolonging a useless argument that had already reached a consensus and where I'd already admitted to being wrong about my statements that were in fact incorrect, right? It's quite obvious you fancy yourself a Dragonball guru of sorts, and can't take anyone challenging your views on it, so you keep stalling a fruitless discussion on it in order to gain a false sense of triumph and superiority. You pretty much admitted to doing it before, and to me it's obvious that it's happening again. But fine, if you're that eager I'll humor you then:

Quote:
Goku tried his best when fighting against Cell, while at the same time showing Gohan how Cell fights. What's so complicated about this?
Nothing complicated about it, but you said the whole point of the fight was just to show Gohan how Cell fought. Well, I'm pretty sure the word whole means "including all components without exception" and thus you were implying Goku wasn't even trying to win, which he clearly was. If he wasn't, again, what was the point of the Warp Kamehame? How did that show Gohan anything about how Cell fought? "See Gohan? If you fire your Kamehame right after using Instantaneous Transmission you'll catch Cell off guard! Oh wait, you don't even have Instantaneous Transmission..." And why would he have done it if he knew he couldn't win like you say he did? To pointlessly waste energy and tire himself out? Point me to one occasion where he admits to knowing he couldn't win since before the fight. Cause if you can't, that's interpretation right there, something you said your arguments lacked, which I think is utter BS.

Now, since you like stating facts so much, here's a few I got taken directly from the Dragonball manga:

Goku: "I give up. I know how strong you are now. I surrender."

And then when Cell asks him who it is Goku wants him to fight next:

Goku: "The next match will probably decide the outcome of the Cell Game. If the next guy can't beat you, then probably no one can. However, after fighting you, I'm pretty sure that he can beat you. That's why I'm leaving everything to him and giving up."

Yeah, those were stated directly by the main character. Those are facts. And yes, Cell did power up before he and SSJ2 Gohan started fighting, but Goku didn't even comment on it or took back what he said and kept his full confidence in Gohan's ability to win. Which he did end up doing. Which is why comparing Goku giving Cell a sensu bean to Vegeta allowing him to absorb #18 is ludicrous. Which *gasp* was the actual point I was trying to make and the reason for this entire argument. But of course you've forgotten that by now with all of your endless nitpicking. (And people give ME negative reputation for "needlessly arguing with other people over such small things", ha)

Quote:
And Goku didn't come close to defeating Cell. He only blew off everything above Cell's torso, and we know that all Cell needs to regenerate is a single cell.
Yes, a single cell located in his head which Goku pulverized. A single cell that miraculously wasn't damaged with a Kamehame powerful enough to destroy the Earth to the face. That's not coming close to defeating someone at all! Please. Quit grasping at straws, will you? If this isn't proof of your habit of not wanting to concede defeat in a debate and keeping arguing just for the sake of arguing coming to surface again I don't know what is.
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