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Old 2010-07-16, 09:12   Link #13961
June 1983
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^ Good point. I think there's a lot of that going on in Umineko too. There are characters inserting themselves (or inserting others) into the story/game board, while maintaining full awareness, but are pretending otherwise.

Just now it occurred to me this might be a much simpler way of describing the different levels of reality than what I put up there. All you need is this really:

REALITY
---
MESSAGE BOTTLE STORIES
---
META WORLD
---
GAME BOARD


It's like a Russian doll. Or like that puzzle with the pebbles/coins and the cups from Maria's book. And the "Golden Land" exists outside of this structure entirely.
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Old 2010-07-16, 09:43   Link #13962
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You missed 1998. It is not the Game Board, but it is hardly The Reality either.

By '1998' I don't mean only the factual events, but the way they were showed to us as well.
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Old 2010-07-16, 09:56   Link #13963
June 1983
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Well, as I said a few posts above, I don't think 1998 is factual for the most part. The 1998 of Episode 4 is definitely a part of the "Alliance of the Golden Witch" message bottle story. The Meta-World of Featherine and Ange are part of the "Dawn of the Golden Witch" message bottle story which Ange is reading to Hachijo. And I think Ange, Amakusa, and Hachijo are also part of it, too, it's just Ange isn't aware of it because she's IN IT at that moment. Or she's creating her role in it.

We were restricted before from saying 1998 was fictional (which posed a bit of a problem, I think, with all of the magic we see in it) because the Game Board doesn't extend past those two days in 1986. The answer to that problem is the Message Bottle Stories. They're the "fictional" cup in which 1998, and the whole shebang, rests. In turn they rest inside the cup of Reality, but we haven't gotten to that one yet.
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Old 2010-07-16, 10:13   Link #13964
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So, what you are saying is the message bottle/forgeries are exactly what were are reading in our computers right?

And The Reality was something never shown to us?

How about the ending rolls then? Are they part of the message bottle/forgery? Even the very first one that mentioned the message bottle for the first time?
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Old 2010-07-16, 12:48   Link #13965
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Referring to the topic 1 page before:

Why Erika and Bern did not think strange when Lambda used Battler's perspective rather than Erika's perspective?

I think,

first, Bern and Erika did not know that Battler has lost his detective status until the ??? tea party where Dlanor said he was the detective while Battler rebutted it by saying clue had been given (seeing living Kinzo). So Bern and Erika was cheated into believing Battler's perspective was objective until the end.

second, it could be that only after Ep5's ??? that Erika acquired the power to move her own piece freely, after she had been promoted to "Witch of Truth". Before that, she had no autonomy otherthan following Bern's order. Since Bern was just trying to have fun and concentrating too much on incriminating Natsuhi, she did not utilize Erika completely (as she did not aim to create logic error for Lambda). Both were content with Battler's perspective.

But in EP6, Erika moved herself freely and she aimed for revealing the trick behind GM's mysteries OR creating logic error (presumably not known by GM Battler). GM Battler knew this time Erika and Bern could doubt Battler's perspective such that he never arranged Shannon and Kanon together before Erika.
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Old 2010-07-16, 13:00   Link #13966
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what's even more "fun" is that it was Erika's idea to separate the people in two groups. And she never thought about checking the actual number of persons. For example, she could have first made everyone gather in a single place, and then bring everyone to the second floor and divide them among two rooms.
If Battler wanted to avoid Erika from seeing both kanon and shannon at the same time, certainly he didn't really have any hard time in doing so.

As a side note, realistically speaking, splitting in two groups shouldn't have been seen as a smart idea by the people involved. More importantly, abandoning the defense of the main hall to hole up in small rooms, which do not really grant any real protection is also something not very smart.


But well I've seen even worse choices so far. I think the best one was Rosa in EP2 especially seen from the anime perspective. There you can see her facing a barricaded door while showing her back to several glass windows.
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Old 2010-07-16, 13:02   Link #13967
moichispa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pika_power View Post
Spoiler for Presumably EP6:
I read about those theories,here (that link is on a animesuki user sig.) and I remember doing it before ep 6 release
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Old 2010-07-16, 13:14   Link #13968
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As said, it is not like they always do the most intelligent thing all times. Also, I actually believe defending 2 rooms is more easy then the main hall. Each room has only 2 entrance, each one easy to be defended. It is also on the second floor, so it is not that easy invade through the window. The main hall, by the other side, has he main entrance, the corridor and a huge glass window in the first floor. Not the most ideal stronghold.

But, yeah, separating in two rooms is not particularly smart. In the end, rolling up in the Parlor proved to be the best idea (or hiding in Kinzo's study).
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Old 2010-07-16, 13:37   Link #13969
CainSonozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by June 1983 View Post
^ Good point. I think there's a lot of that going on in Umineko too. There are characters inserting themselves (or inserting others) into the story/game board, while maintaining full awareness, but are pretending otherwise.

Just now it occurred to me this might be a much simpler way of describing the different levels of reality than what I put up there. All you need is this really:

REALITY
---
MESSAGE BOTTLE STORIES
---
META WORLD
---
GAME BOARD


It's like a Russian doll. Or like that puzzle with the pebbles/coins and the cups from Maria's book. And the "Golden Land" exists outside of this structure entirely.
I was thinking something similar as far as levels of the "world"

Spoiler for Bottom to top from Ep 6:
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Old 2010-07-16, 15:25   Link #13970
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Ok, since we're on two threads, maybe I should just combine the reply here.

So as Renall said already, I don't necessarily count 1998 as a 'real' world. Actually, I've been wondering what you mean by 'real.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
Concluding, following Knox and being "real" is not mutually exclusive. The same way as being fiction and being "real" are also not mutually exclusive (in a multi-worlds context).
So the term has come up, 'Rokkenjima Prime.' This world is like our world; it doesn't conform to Knox rules unless by accident. So I'm not saying the Episodes can't be real (as they exist as fiction) but that the Episode Rokkenjimas are not Rokkenjima Prime. Rokkenjima Prime is the one in the Author's world.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatth View Post
So, what you are saying is the message bottle/forgeries are exactly what were are reading in our computers right?

And The Reality was something never shown to us?

How about the ending rolls then? Are they part of the message bottle/forgery? Even the very first one that mentioned the message bottle for the first time?
We're not 100% sure that the message bottles contain the full text of the Episodes that we've been reading. Maybe for EP6, the scenes of Hachijou and Ange in her study are not...

And yes, Rokkenjima Prime has never been shown to us. And actually if we did get a description of the events it may not have very much value as it may not give very many clues. However, Rokkenjima Prime exists inside the mind of the Author. This Author uses that information to write the stories; stuff like "Kinzo is already dead before the game starts." Or "Kyrie and Asumu were in the same hospital." In this way, clues and ideas reach us from Rokkenjima Prime via the Author.


As for the ending roll; I'm not sure they are supposed to represent anything other than the way the game was played each episode. I mean the ending roll where they list who died; because it's inaccurate to what we already know. Kinzo doesn't die on any of the twilights and Battler was still running around after the first twilight in EP6.



Quote:
Originally Posted by June 1983 View Post
Just now it occurred to me this might be a much simpler way of describing the different levels of reality than what I put up there. All you need is this really:

REALITY
---
MESSAGE BOTTLE STORIES
---
META WORLD
---
GAME BOARD
If I had to define the layers (in simplistic form) it would be something like that too. But...

Reality - Rokkenjima Prime - Author <-- (Message Bottle Stories would exist here)
Meta World - The Witches and the Kakera - Meta Beatrice
Gameboard - Episode Rokkenjima - the Pieces


Quote:
Originally Posted by June 1983 View Post
Well, as I said a few posts above, I don't think 1998 is factual for the most part. The 1998 of Episode 4 is definitely a part of the "Alliance of the Golden Witch" message bottle story. The Meta-World of Featherine and Ange are part of the "Dawn of the Golden Witch" message bottle story which Ange is reading to Hachijo. And I think Ange, Amakusa, and Hachijo are also part of it, too, it's just Ange isn't aware of it because she's IN IT at that moment. Or she's creating her role in it.
Didn't Hachijou have a line at the end of EP6 as Ange left, saying she wonders if she'll take out the Ange character again? Something to that effect? I thought this meant that she wrote in the Ange visit as a way to increase her own legitimacy. That is Ange Prime never visted her, but it's not implausible that she didn't. But now that she wrote her in... the real world starts being persuaded that Ange Prime did visit Hachijou.

Yes, Hachijou is evil! Eeeevil!

Last edited by Kylon99; 2010-07-16 at 15:41.
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Old 2010-07-16, 15:59   Link #13971
Verg Avesta
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Oh wow. I just realized Ryuukishi must have planned Erika a long time ago. When I happened to look that poem "Bern" had written as a extra TIPs, this rang a bell quite clearly in my mind. Emphasis mine.

Quote:
Many things were found from his room.
From those evidences, it is possible to deduce that I am loved by you.

Many things were found from my room.
From those evidences, it is possible to deduce that I also love you.

Nothing was found from her room.
However, I can't deny the existence of an undiscovered evidence X of unfaithfulness.
Or then this was used as the inspiration for the backstory of Erika.
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Old 2010-07-16, 16:00   Link #13972
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
what's even more "fun" is that it was Erika's idea to separate the people in two groups. And she never thought about checking the actual number of persons. For example, she could have first made everyone gather in a single place, and then bring everyone to the second floor and divide them among two rooms.
If Battler wanted to avoid Erika from seeing both kanon and shannon at the same time, certainly he didn't really have any hard time in doing so.
I still find the very pointed separation of Kanon and Shannon suspect, as well as the narration that claimed Battler would have enumerated the people in the "everyone else" room but never did so (so we don't know if he really would have).

It almost feels to me like it's Erika who's the one suspecting Shannon and Kanon being the same, and so she intentionally tries to keep the option open.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
If I had to define the layers (in simplistic form) it would be something like that too. But...

Reality - Rokkenjima Prime - Author <-- (Message Bottle Stories would exist here)
Meta World - The Witches and the Kakera - Meta Beatrice
Gameboard - Episode Rokkenjima - the Pieces
Well, don't forget the critical layer of Actual Reality - Our World - Ryukishi07 on top of everything.

That is, if you believe this layer is on the top...
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Old 2010-07-16, 16:05   Link #13973
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
Oh wow. I just realized Ryuukishi must have planned Erika a long time ago. When I happened to look that poem "Bern" had written as a extra TIPs, this rang a bell quite clearly in my mind. Emphasis mine.
Quote:
Many things were found from his room.
From those evidences, it is possible to deduce that I am loved by you.

Many things were found from my room.
From those evidences, it is possible to deduce that I also love you.

Nothing was found from her room.
However, I can't deny the existence of an undiscovered evidence X of unfaithfulness.
Or then this was used as the inspiration for the backstory of Erika.
It's probably a coincidence or inspiration for her backstory yeah. This poem was written a long time ago so that's all I can think about it. That and Takano's grandfather references the Devil's proof in Higurashi so it's not like Ryukishi isn't using the same research references.

The thing is all of Erika's evidence pointed toward unfaithfulness though so it's actually the opposite situation from this poem.
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Old 2010-07-16, 16:26   Link #13974
June 1983
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Just something that occurred to me.

Does anyone think we might get a minigame in Episode 7 like the "Putting the Pieces Together" part of Matsuriybayshi-hen? Because I was thinking how there are so many little mysteries that haven't been answered, which I really have a hard time believing Ryukishi isn't going to explain, but would be very difficult to take on in an ordinary narrative. I'd really enjoy something like this, so I really hope we do.
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Old 2010-07-16, 16:29   Link #13975
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It almost feels to me like it's Erika who's the one suspecting Shannon and Kanon being the same, and so she intentionally tries to keep the option open.
...wait. Let us assume that is true and pull the thread.
  • If Erika thinks that Shkanon is true, there's no point for her to stop Battler from exposing it, so no need to keep the option open.
  • If Erika suspects that Shkanon is true, but has doubts, it is in her interest to get Battler to expose it as soon as the chance presented itself, otherwise he can screw her up later. Being unsure whether Shkanon is true or not is very disadvantageous for Erika, as she can't use a certainty of either truth in her reasoning.
  • If Erika doesn't think that Shkanon is true, it does not matter to her thinking whether Battler exposes it or not, so there should be no reason for her to go out of her way to keep the option open... unless she has a plan for it.
So could it be that Erika is subtly playing against Bern?...

As a side note, Bern was planning to exile Erika into the "worst kakera possible" or something to this effect, but in the end, does Erika get there? Doesn't look like it to me. Could it actually be a very deeply veiled ...battle suicide, I don't know?
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Old 2010-07-16, 16:31   Link #13976
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by June 1983 View Post
Just something that occurred to me.

Does anyone think we might get a minigame in Episode 7 like the "Putting the Pieces Together" part of Matsuriybayshi-hen? Because I was thinking how there are so many little mysteries that haven't been answered, which I really have a hard time believing Ryukishi isn't going to explain, but would be very difficult to take on in an ordinary narrative. I'd really enjoy something like this, so I really hope we do.
Well I wonder how he'd do that... The tips system is very different in Umineko so it would be difficult to do for starters... That and he said he doesn't want to give everything away like last time.

Of course Matsuribayashi-hen is technically the 8th game not the 7th, if you include Himatsubushi-hen.
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Old 2010-07-16, 16:33   Link #13977
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She tells Beatrice not to leave anything left of her, so I think that even if she isn't intending to lose, if she does lose she wants to be utterly erased.
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This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-07-16, 16:42   Link #13978
Judoh
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The impression I got when I was reading was that the shot that was ultimately going to kill Erika was this red

Kanon does not exist in the guest room. .........Of course, this includes all parts of the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom

and then afterwards the final ones finished her off. But I think the guns they used were supposed to kill anyway right?
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Old 2010-07-16, 16:46   Link #13979
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Okay, I feel a bit stupid now. It was my own theory, and I didn't really understand how it worked, so I was forced to go with "Erika might not have figured out Shkanon if X" and so on. It's true that we don't know how Erika's perspective really works, but it would be nice if Ryuukishi had included some hints.

And...he actually did. I noticed this when I was translating, but then I must have forgotten about it.

Look at the scene when Erika is inspecting the guest room in EP6. There's something particularly odd about it. Even though it's Erika looking at everything, she asks Dlanor each time to tell her what she discovered, and it's Dlanor who explains the situation. If you then look back on the Episode, it's always Dlanor, Gertrude, or Cornelia who confirms the status of the seals for Erika.

I think this finally explains one of the biggest problems with Erika: namely, that she can see scenes that aren't shown by the Game Master. If the Game Master is allowed to include falsehoods in the story, then it isn't really fair for the players to see entire scenes without the Game Master's approval. Furthermore, since there are multiple possible stories at any given point during the game, there needs to be some way of knowing the Game Master's intent when checking things without their knowledge. In other words, you need someone who knows at least as much as the Game Master...

Dlanor is the only character on Bern's side who seems to know everything about Beato's game. It also appears that she's kept some things hidden from Erika, since it seems clear that she sealed off the blue in EP6 so that Beato would have to make the grand entrance she did. If Shkanon is true, then I'd be willing to bet that Dlanor knows about it.

So, in order to get information available to the detective that hasn't been shown in the narrative, the player must rely on a meta-character who knows more about the story than they do. This happened in the question arcs too, when Battler asked Virgilia to describe the crime scenes in EP3. In these cases, the detective must ask to obtain specific bits of information, so unless they ask "were Shannon and Kanon both in this room", they won't get that information. So, it's possible for things that don't directly relate to the crime to get ignored.
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Old 2010-07-16, 16:46   Link #13980
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She was left dying from that shot. Although it was meant to be instant death, wasn't it...?
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