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Old 2010-07-19, 03:33   Link #14161
Linkin Battler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well about the Factions thing. Dlanor said something about how it's not a good idea to say so an so's group did X because you can't identify the people in it. So for the sake of argument that's something we have to look into and reevaluate if it doesn't fit.

Also is there anyone here who doesn't think the first twilight is initially faked? I'd like to know because so far there doesn't seem to be a lot of opposition to it. There doesn't seem to be any opinion on why that shouldn't be what's happening and that sort of keeps theories from having a multi-angled outlook.
I do. Imho the fake twilights are because of the siblings' plan to put Natsuhi and Krauss under pressure so that they reveal of Kinzo's death.
However in EP1, EP2, EP3 and EP4 they are not even able to realize the plan because somehow the got killed by someone first. The fact that in EP2 we find red painted hands on Natsuhi's door even though she dies on the 1st Twilight is a clear sign that those who wants to fake the deaths are not related to the real culprit/s.
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Old 2010-07-19, 03:35   Link #14162
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
THe latest manga on EP3 had Rudolf saying that the backdoor of boiler room seemed to be blocked by some bar or something which made it closed room.

GM Ryu07 seemed to have retro-fixed the story ...
Ryu07 might as well appear as a GM in the story. I wouldn't put it past him to do something weird like that.
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Old 2010-07-19, 03:40   Link #14163
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
THe latest manga on EP3 had Rudolf saying that the backdoor of boiler room seemed to be blocked by some bar or something which made it closed room.

GM Ryu07 seemed to have retro-fixed the story ...
I always asked myself that xD
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Old 2010-07-19, 03:45   Link #14164
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
I do. Imho the fake twilights are because of the siblings' plan to put Natsuhi and Krauss under pressure so that they reveal of Kinzo's death.
Krauss, Natsuhi, and the servants being in the fake first twilight sort of makes that reason for faking counter productive. I think we've discussed this before, but that's not a good reason by itself.

Quote:
The fact that in EP2 we find red painted hands on Natsuhi's door even though she dies on the 1st Twilight is a clear sign that those who wants to fake the deaths are not related to the real culprit/s.
How so?
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Old 2010-07-19, 04:10   Link #14165
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In fact Natsuhi and Krauss obviously never fakes their death, it is just that they get killed xD
The siblings plan to fake the 1st twilight but it actually never happens, since they are killed before they do it. Probably, since it is an emergency option, they wait for the day after to do it and first the try with other methods (frighten Natsuhi with the paintings on the door and stuff like that).

Quote:
How so?
If I paint red hands on your door to frighten you or for any other motivation, I'm not gonna kill you before you see that warning. If I'm gonna kill you it has no sense to do it. Therefore those who paint the door red and the culprit (the one who kills) must be different people, don't you think?
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Old 2010-07-19, 04:16   Link #14166
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Originally Posted by Linkin Battler View Post
In fact Natsuhi and Krauss obviously never fakes their death, it is just that they get killed xD
There is no rule that says everyone has to have the same motive for faking their death you know. If your first motive doesn't work it just means there is a different motive.


Quote:
If I paint red hands on your door to frighten you or for any other motivation, I'm not gonna kill you before you see that warning. If I'm gonna kill you it has no sense to do it. Therefore those who paint the door red and the culprit (the one who kills) must be different people, don't you think?
Well that depends on if it's really a warning or not, and if it happened at the same time it did in the first episode. And if it happens in the episodes after that...

To be completely comical it could just be Maria running around with finger paints...

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-19 at 04:29.
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Old 2010-07-19, 04:47   Link #14167
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Sorry to go off-topic but...
I have been reading EP3 and...why is nobody doing a Beatrice-3 theory ?
Because...it's weird, the Beatrice at the beginning of the EP and the one in Rosa's flashback are...totally not the same.
Let's call the Beatrice at the beginning of EP3 Beato-3.

Beatrice-2 : In Kuwadorian.
Beatrice-3 : In Kuwadorian.

Beatrice-2 : This is the world of 1967.
Beatrice-3 : ??????. If we assume that it was the beginning of Beatrice, it would be 1000 years ago...But it's nearly impossible that Kuwadorian and Kumasawa/Virgila were here 1000 years ago.

Beatrice-2 : Calls Kinzo "Father".
Beatrice-3 : Calls Kinzo "Grandfather".

Beatrice-2 : Beatrice=Herself.
Beatrice-3 : Beatrice=Virgilia/Kumasawa.

Beatrice-2 : Cannot use magic.
Beatrice-3 : Will learn magic.

Before the death of Beatrice-2, she gave birth to a Beatrice-3. She would be 19 years old. This Beatrice-3 could also be the person in the EP7 portrait.

Also, the presence of Kumasawa would means that she knows nearly everything, and it's not weird at all because of the TIPS (Oh I wrote RIP first, sorry Kumasawa).

But it would mean that she is a "17th person" and we will need a theory to lower the number of people (Shkanon is not the only thing in the world). Or maybe she is someone on the island in disguise.

I've never seen something about this so...I try.
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Old 2010-07-19, 04:50   Link #14168
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In my opinion the only FT that may be faked in ep1-4 is the ep4 one. In ep1 Battler takes a close look to most of the corpses, same in ep2, where there is also the red. Ep3 actually feels strange, i think that the adults are lying but the servants are actually dead for good. Ep4 is the only one we don't really know anything about...
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Old 2010-07-19, 04:51   Link #14169
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well about the Factions thing. Dlanor said something about how it's not a good idea to say so an so's group did X because you can't identify the people in it. So for the sake of argument that's something we have to look into and reevaluate if it doesn't fit.
Oh yes. I guess my Faction War Theory got left behind like some... wow.. 400 pages ago now. I don't think I can dig it out, but I was going to repost it again soon.

In short, I don't believe that people belong to one faction only. I believe that probably a lot of them belong to two. Like, we already know the servants are up to some kind of hijinks so; most of them belong to two groups, Natsuhi's group and their own. For example, Nanjo lies about playing chess with Kinzo in his study... which suits Natsuhi, but then he lies about not seeing Kinzo wearing the ring later. Which probably made Natsuhi go.. "!!!"

And then there's probably a person working with the servants that belong to his/her own faction to betray them... etc, etc. So I use the faction term to represent more of like a conspiracy or a strong will to do something. Just that the faction members are not as clear cut.

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Well Episode 2 I never understood how faking worked because Lambda's red says 'they're dead the moment they were discovered'.
It would make sense if they gathered there to plan the fakery but then were killed instead. Later or not. The fakery doesn't help with the closed room in this case as the problem is with the door and the chapel key. However it does sort of allow the time of the murder to be from anywhere from midnight to 6am. And it allows for an easy murder; rather than forcing people to gather there or killing them and dragging their bodies there.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Episode 3 doesn't work unless you use the boiler room door trick which becomes a closed room because you can't open the exit from the outside. However that solution isn't consistent with episode 6....
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
THe latest manga on EP3 had Rudolf say that the backdoor of boiler room seemed to be blocked by some bar or something which made it closed room. GM Ryu07 seemed to have retro-fixed the story ...
Dammit, retro-closed room. Who gave Ryu the damn gum tape? Ryuuuuu! 8)

Anyways as with EP3, there's a red to say that they are dead by the time they are discovered; the morning. But in EP3 as in EP6 the clue that they were faking to start with is that everyone was in comfortable positions. There's still the matter of the closed room construction; now with a blocked boiler room door. But once again it changes the time of the murder to 10pm - 6am and makes it easier for people to kill.

Assuming we can defeat the closed room issue that is. I have a feeling that's more related to the closed room issue of EP6 than the faking as seen in EP5-6.

This is all assuming we can trust the red text that says people are dead. We know there's some kind of problem for Kanon at least... I keep thinking about what Jan-Poo said. Eva-B's red: "No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game." It makes it all so easy and tempting that it's 'dead' from in a 'game.' Ugh...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Krauss, Natsuhi, and the servants being in the fake first twilight sort of makes that reason for faking counter productive. I think we've discussed this before, but that's not a good reason by itself.
Just to add a bit more about the idea of the siblings faking the deaths though:
1. They would need to produce the body of Kinzo to fake in EP3.
2. They would then need to be in league with all the servants for that body + their willingness to fake in EP1, 3, and 4. Plus also to prepare the materials on hand for the faking.
3. They would need the co-operation of Krauss and Natsuhi themselves in various episodes, EP1, 2, 4 and 6...

If the siblings were doing it in order to reveal the death of Kinzo, simply producing the body is good enough, right?
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Old 2010-07-19, 04:54   Link #14170
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Originally Posted by Sniesk View Post
In my opinion the only FT that may be faked in ep1-4 is the ep4 one. In ep1 Battler takes a close look to most of the corpses, same in ep2, where there is also the red. Ep3 actually feels strange, i think that the adults are lying but the servants are actually dead for good. Ep4 is the only one we don't really know anything about...
This is why the theory is not that they're faking, but that there was a plan to fake the first twilight (and successive twilights) but they got railroaded by a betrayer killer.
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Old 2010-07-19, 04:55   Link #14171
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Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
*snip*
That's because the only real difference between them is one calls someone grandfather and the other calls Kinzo father. And actually we don't know the grandfather is Kinzo. The tips themselves also say Beatrice is a title.

Also I thought it was clear by now that the 1000 years thing was a metaphor for 6 years of torture. Beatrice 1 doesn't have to literally 1000 years old. Kinzo would have never met her then.
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Old 2010-07-19, 04:57   Link #14172
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That's because the only real difference between them is one calls someone grandfather and the other calls Kinzo father. And actually we don't know the grandfather is Kinzo. The tips themselves also say Beatrice is a title.

Also I thought it was clear by now that the 1000 years thing was a metaphor for 6 years of torture. Beatrice 1 doesn't have to literally 1000 years old. Kinzo would have never met her then.
So who else would be called "Grandfather" for someone in Kuwadorian ? Genji ?
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Old 2010-07-19, 05:01   Link #14173
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So who else would be called "Grandfather" for someone in Kuwadorian ? Genji ?
Does it matter?
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Old 2010-07-19, 05:05   Link #14174
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
If the siblings were doing it in order to reveal the death of Kinzo, simply producing the body is good enough, right?
To produce the body, they still need a collaborator among the servants. Generally, organising a FFT only makes sense for the Anti-Krauss Faction if they think the body no longer exists, which may actually be the case... for example, if someone dug it up in the morning to... ooh, idea.

Someone dug up Kinzo because they knew the Anti-Krauss faction plans to do that and present the corpse!

That doesn't mean the FFT always results from the same plan in every game.
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Old 2010-07-19, 05:05   Link #14175
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Does it matter?
Well...no, but the thing is that if there is a Beatrice-3, she could be 19 years old.
Then Battler could have discovered Kuwadorian 6 years ago, talk to Beatrice-3, she falls in love and then...Battler doesn't remember...it's simple...but yeah I would agree with people that says that it is TOO much simple.
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Old 2010-07-19, 05:07   Link #14176
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Oh yes. I guess my Faction War Theory got left behind like some... wow.. 400 pages ago now. I don't think I can dig it out, but I was going to repost it again soon.

In short, I don't believe that people belong to one faction only. I believe that probably a lot of them belong to two. Like, we already know the servants are up to some kind of hijinks so; most of them belong to two groups, Natsuhi's group and their own. For example, Nanjo lies about playing chess with Kinzo in his study... which suits Natsuhi, but then he lies about not seeing Kinzo wearing the ring later. Which probably made Natsuhi go.. "!!!"
I understand the premise of the factions theory. What I'm telling you is in Episode 6 Dlanor says it's a bad idea to use groups like that and that we probably have to rethink it.
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Old 2010-07-19, 05:09   Link #14177
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Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Then Battler could have discovered Kuwadorian 6 years ago, talk to Beatrice-3, she falls in love and then...Battler doesn't remember...it's simple...but yeah I would agree with people that says that it is TOO much simple.
The problem with it is not that it's too simple. It makes easily the most narrative sense among the entirety of all major theories. The problem is the annoying amounts of evidence making it jump through hoops to stay alive.
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Old 2010-07-19, 05:09   Link #14178
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Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Well...no, but the thing is that if there is a Beatrice-3, she could be 19 years old.
Then Battler could have discovered Kuwadorian 6 years ago, talk to Beatrice-3, she falls in love and then...Battler doesn't remember...it's simple...but yeah I would agree with people that says that it is TOO much simple.
The line from Zepar and Furfur have talking about that is "the 19 year old master of this world". They're obviously referring to the meta world not some 19 year old culprit on game board. It's probably Meta Battler.

That entire conversation is about how the number "19" is so special because it appears so often.

EDIT: And before you ask "is Battler 19?" I think he's a year older in meta time.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-19 at 05:20.
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Old 2010-07-19, 05:18   Link #14179
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The line from Zepar and Furfur have talking about that is "the 19 year old master of this world". They're obviously referring to the meta world not some 19 year old culprit on game board. It's probably Meta Battler.

That entire conversation is about how the number "19" is so special because it appears so often.
Yeah, I give up on this one, The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.
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Old 2010-07-19, 05:26   Link #14180
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I find it funny that people still try and make human Beatrice theories when Ronove and the witches ridicule the idea constantly. Especially with the Purupurupiko man comment in chiru. These people are just gluttons for punishment.
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