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Old 2010-07-19, 05:27   Link #14181
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I understand the premise of the factions theory. What I'm telling you is in Episode 6 Dlanor says it's a bad idea to use groups like that and that we probably have to rethink it.
Well, I've thought about those secret factions, like the Fakery Betrayer, or whatever George is planning. When you get far enough the faction theories reduce down to almost individual culprits.

Besides... Dlanor still flicks her spaghetti sauce all over the place when she eats! She's still a little child... what does she know! Hmph! ... I want a Dlanor appreciation thread now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
The line from Zepar and Furfur have talking about that is "the 19 year old master of this world". They're obviously referring to the meta world not some 19 year old culprit on game board. It's probably Meta Battler.

That entire conversation is about how the number "19" is so special because it appears so often.

EDIT: And before you ask "is Battler 19?" I think he's a year older in meta time.
I thought it makes the most sense if the master IS Battler, Meta or not. This because I thought the most obvious answer was that it's Beatrice-2, who was 19 when she died... but.. she's dead.
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Old 2010-07-19, 05:40   Link #14182
Leafsnail
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I actually really liked the Asumu Beatrice theory... ah well.
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Old 2010-07-19, 06:19   Link #14183
Chris Rosenkreutz
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Her boyfriend cheats on her. She gets married, dies and then her husband re-marries.

Erika is Asumu! She can't be Beatrice.
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Old 2010-07-19, 06:52   Link #14184
Chris Rosenkreutz
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If original Beatrice was created 6 years ago, then what relationship could she have to Kinzo? It makes more sense to consider the relationship between Battler and Beatrice as an analogy for the one between Kinzo and Beatrice, rather than he other way around. If there is a Beatrice that relates to Battler and the last 6 years then she wouldn't be the first Beatrice in the real world.

Reading Episode 6, a lot of the time I got the impression that Sorceror Battler and new Beato are Kinzo and Natsuhi. "Father" seemed like a dead giveaway. If she is Natsuhi, then maybe original Beatrice is Kinzo's wife. According to episode 1, he didn't think much of her when she was alive but then did Battler of Beatrice in episodes 1-4?

If Beatrice is a title, meaning something like mistress of Rokkenjima, and it's in contention in 1986, then anyone could be Beatrice. Grandson Battler's Beatrice might be, say, Shannon. Statements about the original Beatrice would still be about Grandmother or whoever Kinzo's Beatrice is.
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Old 2010-07-19, 07:12   Link #14185
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There are six Rokkenjima islands (so far), he (Kinzo) had several girlfriends and he somehow managed to keep his relationship with all of them (at least to some extent). The branches of the Ushiromiya are rich and populous. Each of them, at the very least, has a Krauss, Rudolph, Eva and Rosa. These are the names assigned to them on the game board. These are, however, not their real names and I have no idea what their real names are, but they are all Ushiromiya.

For my theory I shall finger Rosa and Maria, but it might work with Eva’s family as well (from previously gained information). I shall give them the name of Rosa prime and Maria prime.

Episode 3 (Beginning) Rokkenjima 3

Battler gets too scared to board the aeroplane to Rokkenjima, he refuses to board and says he will take the Boat there. However, a storm acts up shortly before the boat arrives and it is not until the beginning of November that Battler is able to witness theaftermath..

Maria Prime has been told by Kinzo during previous visits to the island to deliver letters during 1986, in fact, each Maria has been told to do this. As the adults set about trying to solve the epitaph, Rosa prime magically manages to solve the epitaph and brings her daughter with her. She is lead down a secret passage which leads to junction with several exits.

Before her is the same epitaph with a message ‘Kill according to the epitaph and the key shall come before you’. Adjacent to this epitaph is a set of several keys, a gold ingot and a dress. Below the epitaph is a single keyhole. Rosa prime does not wear the dress, but she does carry it, she also takes the single gold ingot. We shall name this area Base-R.

She takes the keys and takes one of the exits. Little does she know that she is going underwater to another Rokkenjima. The keys have numbers engraved in them, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7. (To be honest, I will have to ask you guys to bear the inconsistencies with the keys, because I can’t be bothered to keep track of them all.) She is supposed to find the right room which key 1 would let her in i.e. to lift up the six as chosen by the key.

She sends Maria prime to Rokkenjima 5 and asks her to call herself Erika. Since no one would resist taking in a child during a storm, especially if ‘They had survived an accident involving the ship/ferry/whatever. Rosa prime proceeds to Base-R and then to Rokkenjima 2.

Episode 2 (Beginning) Rokkenjima 2

She visits the place of episode 2, in which she is greeted by the staff as a guest; some of them were expecting her. Rosa prime is suit Beatrice. She gives Maria 2 a letter with a key to the chapel. She meets the Rokkenjima Parents, going by the name of Beatrice and shows them her gold ingot. She then leads them to the chapel and produces one of the Chapel’s keys and lets them in.
A discussion takes place in which Suit Beatrice promises them the rest of the gold to share if they sign away the deed to the island. Krauss and Natsuhi agree. Rosa 2 leaves shortly afterwards due to tiredness, but the other parents stay to discuss… whatever I don’t know. It should be noted that they proclaim that Rosa prime is Beatrice.

Rosa Prime the proceeds to kill them, leaves the Chapel’s key inside the Chapel and takes one of Natsuhi’s keys. She then locks the chapel and proceeds back to Base-R

Episode 1 (Beginning) Rokkenjima 1

Using the several of the keys, she unlocks the doors of Krauss 1, Shannon 1, Rudolph, Kyrie 1, Gohda 1 and Rosa 1and brutally murders them, before locking them in the shed, using one of several keys to the shed, and then leaving one behind. The key to the shed is also the key to other places on the other islands (e.g. Shed = Chapel = Children’s villa room etc etc.). It is during this time that I believe she steals Kanon’s key and other keys on the island. She then takes the secret path back to Base-R.

Episode 3 (Beginning- part 2) Rokkenjima 3

Rosa gets back to where she was supposed to be and proceeds to use her keys to create another closed room, leaving behind several keys in the process.
She then proceeds to kill people using the turnabout and discovery of keys to keep the murders going. Having already gotten to over 700 words I will stop here and give a short summary of what happens next, they may not happen in order but I at least hope to explain (a little of) what happens.


Eva X(any number) solves the epitaph and kills Rosa prime.

Rosa leaves Rokkenjima 4 alone most of the time. Unfortunately, her timing isn’t great and everyone believes her to be an imposter when she finally arrives. They want her gold (which she has carried with her) and so a ‘witch hunt’ begins. I believe this to be the ending to episode 2 where all the goat butlers are chasing her.

Battler X arrives at Rokkenjima 4 to find that and earthquake has happened
Eva carries on some of the murders donning the Beatrice suit, which explains the end of Episode 1 and 3.

Rokkenjima 5 was difficult to do because Eva 5 had left several seals on certain doors. It may be possible that Eva 5 had solved the epitaph.

6 children were not in Rokkenjima 5’s room since Battler never arrived. So she went for Genji instead.

At the end, a single key is left over for Base-R, where there is one keyhole, this contains the gold.

That’s my theory so far, and I hope you guys enjoyed reading it as much as I enjoyed writing it.
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Old 2010-07-19, 07:19   Link #14186
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
This is all assuming we can trust the red text that says people are dead. We know there's some kind of problem for Kanon at least... I keep thinking about what Jan-Poo said. Eva-B's red: "No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game." It makes it all so easy and tempting that it's 'dead' from in a 'game.' Ugh...

Just to add a bit more about the idea of the siblings faking the deaths though:
1. They would need to produce the body of Kinzo to fake in EP3.
2. They would then need to be in league with all the servants for that body + their willingness to fake in EP1, 3, and 4. Plus also to prepare the materials on hand for the faking.
3. They would need the co-operation of Krauss and Natsuhi themselves in various episodes, EP1, 2, 4 and 6...

If the siblings were doing it in order to reveal the death of Kinzo, simply producing the body is good enough, right?
About that I've found something interesting:



Now the character TIPS are usually garbage but among the garbage some gems could be hidden. What if this is a gem? What if Ryuukishi just told us in EP3 what the epitaph serial murder actually is?

Let's say it is a game. Then we can speculate that in EP3 Eva was selected as the "culprit". That way we can explain the last scene as simply the prosecution of the game, the guns are fake or loaded with blanks.
Eva "killed" Battler only in the game. Battler lost the culprit won, game over.

In EP2 it is possible that Rosa was elected as detective. That would explain her overly suspicious attitude and at the same time why she doesn't suspect Beatrice which she supposedly met. If it was a game, then she simply had to find who is the culprit among the people, and of course Beatrice was excluded. She also wasn't really surprised to find the deads in the first twilight. Maybe she was a little thrown off by the overly realistic display. She didn't seem particularly devastated 'though.

Or maybe to win the game you just need to "survive" and reach the golden land. That would explain the wolf and sheep puzzle reasoning. That would also better explain Natsuhi's actions in EP1.

The EP4 becomes even more easy to explain. Those who "die" become captured pieces, they need to wear a goat mask and do exactly as Beatrice commands.
Jessica and Kyrie must have had to say to Battler all those things because they were already "killed". Actually.... Jessica was already "killed".

As usual everything makes completely sense if people didn't die for real.
Is this the venomous trick Ryuukishi was talking about? That "dead" doesn't mean "dead"? That in this game only "personalities" can die, furniture or not?

But if this is the case....
Then can we be totally sure that Kinzo is dead?
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Old 2010-07-19, 07:50   Link #14187
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I think the TIPs can sometimes mean something (I don't see any reason to doubt Krauss's death tip in ep1, for instance) but... how can the whole thing be a game? I mean, Battler could tell from the corpses that most of the people he examined were dead in ep4, for instance (that was the point of the head smashing).

EDIT: Kanon's semi-death TIP is ep2 is interesting.
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Old 2010-07-19, 08:15   Link #14188
Renall
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
The problem with it is not that it's too simple. It makes easily the most narrative sense among the entirety of all major theories. The problem is the annoying amounts of evidence making it jump through hoops to stay alive.
Plus, if Battler had ever actually been to Kuwadorian you'd think showing him a flashback of Kuwadorian would make him suddenly go "Oh crap! I remember that place!"

He seems utterly baffled that it's even there.

Honestly, it has to be something easy to forget. Battler doesn't seem to have a particularly bad memory. In fact, his memory seems decent overall. I find it hard to believe he could remember so much of what he's read yet forget major incidents in his life. It's forgivable if it wasn't all that big a deal to him, but in such an instance it makes it harder to justify what we've been presented as Beatrice's alleged "torture."

The sin is generally problematic for that reason. If it's small, it makes sense to forget it but no sense to be so mad over it. If it's large, it makes sense to be mad but no sense to have forgotten.

Unless it really isn't "this" Battler's sin, I guess. But then why ask "our" Battler to remember it?
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Old 2010-07-19, 08:21   Link #14189
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
About that I've found something interesting:

The EP4 becomes even more easy to explain. Those who "die" become captured pieces, they need to wear a goat mask and do exactly as Beatrice commands.
Jessica and Kyrie must have had to say to Battler all those things because they were already "killed". Actually.... Jessica was already "killed".

As usual everything makes completely sense if people didn't die for real.
Is this the venomous trick Ryuukishi was talking about? That "dead" doesn't mean "dead"? That in this game only "personalities" can die, furniture or not?

But if this is the case....
Then can we be totally sure that Kinzo is dead?
Simply put, what you are trying to say is that the "dying" that is presented in the game and stated in red means only death of personality but the body remains alive and is removed to the discard pile that is under Beatrice's control? But what happens next? How do you explain that they eventually die afterwards?

It would be an extreme trolling if the dead persons were actually alive. I don't want to accept that. As Erika might probably say, it would be a big let-down if everyone stayed alive.
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Old 2010-07-19, 08:27   Link #14190
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Well somebody is actually causing people to die. Unless you want to believe ep1-4 Battler can't tell a dead person when he personally examines them (parlor trio in ep1, Shannon in ep2, most folks in ep4). If there's a game, there's still a killer. The question I guess is more when the reds would even apply in that case.
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Old 2010-07-19, 08:28   Link #14191
Sniesk
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
About that I've found something interesting:


Now the character TIPS are usually garbage but among the garbage some gems could be hidden. What if this is a gem? What if Ryuukishi just told us in EP3 what the epitaph serial murder actually is?

Let's say it is a game. Then we can speculate that in EP3 Eva was selected as the "culprit". That way we can explain the last scene as simply the prosecution of the game, the guns are fake or loaded with blanks.
Eva "killed" Battler only in the game. Battler lost the culprit won, game over.

In EP2 it is possible that Rosa was elected as detective. That would explain her overly suspicious attitude and at the same time why she doesn't suspect Beatrice which she supposedly met. If it was a game, then she simply had to find who is the culprit among the people, and of course Beatrice was excluded. She also wasn't really surprised to find the deads in the first twilight. Maybe she was a little thrown off by the overly realistic display. She didn't seem particularly devastated 'though.

Or maybe to win the game you just need to "survive" and reach the golden land. That would explain the wolf and sheep puzzle reasoning. That would also better explain Natsuhi's actions in EP1.

The EP4 becomes even more easy to explain. Those who "die" become captured pieces, they need to wear a goat mask and do exactly as Beatrice commands.
Jessica and Kyrie must have had to say to Battler all those things because they were already "killed". Actually.... Jessica was already "killed".

As usual everything makes completely sense if people didn't die for real.
Is this the venomous trick Ryuukishi was talking about? That "dead" doesn't mean "dead"? That in this game only "personalities" can die, furniture or not?

But if this is the case....
Then can we be totally sure that Kinzo is dead?
I think you are going a little too far. Even if there is the possibility of a Murder Mistery game, why should we start to even doubt the red truth? If someone is declared to be dead, there is nothing really open to interpretation. This would be over extreme trolling by Ryuukishi.
Also all the 1998 scenes would make no sense if no one really died.
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Old 2010-07-19, 08:30   Link #14192
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The 1998 scenes are not a problem.

The explosion that kills everyone in the end is more than a theory at this point. And nothing from the 1998 scenes suggests that a serial murder ever happened.
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Old 2010-07-19, 08:49   Link #14193
MeoTwister5
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The thing with 1998 is that NO ONE KNOWS how they disappeared/died 1986. All that they know is that they did but they don't know the who/how/why, the threer critical questions of the mystery genre (perpetrator, method and motive).
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Old 2010-07-19, 09:09   Link #14194
Sniesk
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The 1998 scenes are not a problem.

The explosion that kills everyone in the end is more than a theory at this point. And nothing from the 1998 scenes suggests that a serial murder ever happened.
Then there is no point in Eva choosing to remain silent about the events on Rokkenjima and of course no reason for her to be all alone in Kuwadorian at the time of the explosion.
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Old 2010-07-19, 09:14   Link #14195
Jan-Poo
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I'm not totally agreeing with that.

The vast majority of people believe they know what happened.
You don't call an event you know nothing about an "unfortunate accident". What makes you think it was an accident or that it was unfortunate?


The only one who's got doubts are the witch hunters and Ange. Nanjo Junior is quite apparently annoyed by anyone that doesn't want to accept it was simply an unfortunate accident, and he claims that only the irresponsible magazines and TV shows try to see in there more than the actual facts. Okonogi even says that he'd get in trouble if he calls it a crime.

For the world, for the police, and every official institution it wasn't a crime. We don't know what kind of accident it was, but they definitely have a clear idea. In EP4 we've been left totally in the dark, but in EP6 we learn that it is common knowledge that it was an explosion of some sort.
Do you really think this is the extent of what is commonly known? There's no way. They know exactly what kind of explosion it was.

Of course what they believe to know might be false. But an official explanation exists and it's widely accepted.


Quote:
Then there is no point in Eva choosing to remain silent about the events on Rokkenjima and of course no reason for her to be all alone in Kuwadorian at the time of the explosion.
There are thousands of possible explanations beside a mass murder. Okonogi himself gives one.
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Old 2010-07-19, 09:25   Link #14196
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Anyone thought that in EP1-2 Beatrice was basically a bitch trolling Battler and the others, but from EP3-6 she had suddenly changed into her MoeMoe mode.

And we knew that Hachijou was supposedly the author of EP3-6 while EP1-2 were the original letters-in-the-bottle.

Coincidence? I don't think so.

I do not think Hachijou portrayed Beatrice wrongly, but she was just incorporating more the elements of love into the story.

However, the orignial writer of the letters-in-the-bottle did not intend to create a love story, but really just a mystery.

And the original writer made Battler fail hard.


It seemed that Beatrice was created for Battler and she was part of Sayo. Hachijo probably found this out. But was Sayo the writer of the letters-in-the-bottle?



In EP4, Ange showed the page of declaration to the Professor and it was his surprised response confirmed that the "To my beloved apprentice witch" was having the same handwriting as the letters-in-the-bottle. But do you believe Sayo know how to write in ltalian as well?
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Old 2010-07-19, 09:34   Link #14197
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Spoiler:
Actually no. It was clearly stated by Ange at the end that Beatrice was put to sleep at the end of EP6. So, no happy-couple things in EP7.
What will happen, most likely, is that Battler will want to give Beatrice a proper burial, whereas Bern and Featherine will try to desecrate whatever is left of Beatrice.

Anyway, I haven't been following the discussions here for quite some time. Are there any interesting theories around?
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Old 2010-07-19, 10:48   Link #14198
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I do agree that dead does not mean dead. at least there is a chance to it.
EP6 also says blood was pouring from Rosa's forehead. Maria covered in blood, so cosmetic fake deaths are allowed in the other EPs.

the old Battler is the same as Erika in EP6 hinting that Battler did not have the detective authority in EP1-4
Anyway. EP6 shows me that Gohda may be involved in the previous EP's because he acts the same as always when strange things happens. It would not be as cruel as not telling your Husbands or Children about the FFT but still...
Spoiler for How do witches die:
I really like the "Erika does not effect the world"
Spoiler for you might not want to click this:
more "facts"
EP 6 1:11AM - 2:22AM
Spoiler for please do not hate me:

I think im finished with Erika, there is a chance she does not "exist" but i do not deny her. I think there are more importend things to look at in EP6 particularly white text pointing out that this may be a "game" and the "murders" will keep going. 19. ect.
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Old 2010-07-19, 15:05   Link #14199
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There are thousands of possible explanations beside a mass murder. Okonogi himself gives one.
The explanation your talking about is that Kinzo gave Eva the solution to the epitaph because he wanted her to become the Ushiromiya head. It doesn't really explain away mass murder, but it makes it less likely she'd do it. Although only if you didn't know Kinzo was dead at the time.

And really if your going to keep saying the bomb makes the murders irrelevant I'm not going to even listen to your speculation anymore. That's an obvious double standard. There's no reason to even think about personality death or red text if it's just an accident without murders. You making your own speculation completely void. Why do you even care then?

I also doubt that's the direction Ryukishi is going in. From what he says there should be no compromises a culprit will be almost completely confirmed in Episode 7. "The bomb did it" (on it's own) would not be a malicious answer it'd be a cop out.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-19 at 15:18.
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Old 2010-07-19, 15:59   Link #14200
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
The explanation your talking about is that Kinzo gave Eva the solution to the epitaph because he wanted her to become the Ushiromiya head. It doesn't really explain away mass murder, but it makes it less likely she'd do it. Although only if you didn't know Kinzo was dead at the time.
You know, I'm thinking that Eva was supposed to guide Battler to the gold but ended up neglecting that and co-opted the headship from him. And so she came up with that explanation after the 'incident' as a way out...

Because why wouldn't she just have said, "Oh, I solved the epitaph. It was Qilian."

Maybe there were outside forces that knew of the plot as well, or at least she was paranoid of that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
And really if your going to keep saying the bomb makes the murders irrelevant I'm not going to even listen to your speculation anymore. That's an obvious double standard. There's no reason to even think about personality death or red text if it's just an accident without murders. You making your own speculation completely void. Why do you even care then?
I think Jan Poo is just talking about the perspective of the 1998 people.. and not us. We *know* there are murders.
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