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Old 2010-07-19, 23:54   Link #2221
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
From what I understand, the official explanation is that after the Grail is destroyed in FSN, Avenger/Angra Mainyu's consciousness doesn't return to the void with the rest of the Grail and continues attempting to fulfill its role as the Holy Grail by granting a wish to someone. It finds Bazett, and HA follows.
Except that Bazett got killed before the third day. She'd be long dead by the end of the war, so if AM kept her alive, he had to be doing it from the very start.

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Since the Grail is destroyed in every route, and HA is all in Bazett's head anyway (or is it... I'm a little fuzzy on the details, but I'm pretty sure it's either an illusion in her head or some kind of pocket dimension where only she and Avenger are 'real'), it could follow any route if this is the case.
I'm not sure, but I think that at very least someone has to find her.

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And frankly, knowing Type Moon, the 'canon' ending to FSN is probably some combination of all three routes anyway. They love doing that.
There isn't a 'canon' ending. The Nasuverse is a multiverse, so they're all canon.
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Old 2010-07-20, 07:48   Link #2222
Moczo
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Except that Bazett got killed before the third day. She'd be long dead by the end of the war, so if AM kept her alive, he had to be doing it from the very start.

I'm not sure, but I think that at very least someone has to find her.
I checked out the Type-Moon wiki, and according to Bazett's page AM found her 'as she lay dying', but according to Avenger's page, it found her 'after Emiya Shirou destroyed the grail'. So either Avenger's is wrong... or we're being asked to believe that Bazett clung to life for nearly two weeks with a big hole in her and one arm missing before AM found her.

Personally, I can get into the second. It's not like she's the first Nasuverse character to survive something she has no business surviving. And having the willpower to survive such an impossible situation would certainly qualify as a strong enough 'wish to live' to draw Avenger to her in the first place.

Alternately: I was under the impression that Caren Ortensia found Bazett after she'd already been sustained by Avenger for several months, but maybe I misunderstood and Caren found her almost immediately and began nursing her back to health? I mean, I am basing all this on what I read in a wiki, and that's not the most reliable source.

Still, I prefer the thought of one-armed Bazett clinging to life long after anyone else would have died. It's more badass that way.

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There isn't a 'canon' ending. The Nasuverse is a multiverse, so they're all canon.
Sorry, I should've been more specific. Yeah, all the endings are canon in the 'multiverse' way, but generally speaking if they're going to do a sequel or a side-story, they'll choose to have it follow from an 'ending' that was none of the ones the player could actually get during the game, so as to include the most possible characters.

The big example would be 'Melty Blood', that Tsukihime fighting game; it's considered canon, with it's own plot that follows off the ending of Tsukihime/Kagetsu Tohya, but several of the people involved have character changes that only make sense if Shiki somehow did several routes in succession and got good endings for all of them. So the 'official' explanation is that it follows a route that wasn't available in the original Tsukihime VN.

With HA it doesn't really matter, because it's all illusionary or whatnot, but if they ever made 'Fate/Stay Night 2', I really wouldn't be surprised to find that Rin, Sakura, Saber, Rider, and Illya are all alive and living in Japan with Shirou. Somehow.

Last edited by Moczo; 2010-07-20 at 08:37.
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Old 2010-07-20, 08:56   Link #2223
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
I checked out the Type-Moon wiki, and according to Bazett's page AM found her 'as she lay dying', but according to Avenger's page, it found her 'after Emiya Shirou destroyed the grail'. So either Avenger's is wrong... or we're being asked to believe that Bazett clung to life for nearly two weeks with a big hole in her and one arm missing before AM found her.
TM wiki is less than reliable, however....

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Personally, I can get into the second. It's not like she's the first Nasuverse character to survive something she has no business surviving. And having the willpower to survive such an impossible situation would certainly qualify as a strong enough 'wish to live' to draw Avenger to her in the first place.
Seriously, it's ridiculous. If nothing else, you'd think that someone would notice her by then.

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Alternately: I was under the impression that Caren Ortensia found Bazett after she'd already been sustained by Avenger for several months, but maybe I misunderstood and Caren found her almost immediately and began nursing her back to health?
Caren wasn't there at the time. She only showed up after the war, once Kotomine was dead.

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Yeah, all the endings are canon in the 'multiverse' way, but generally speaking if they're going to do a sequel or a side-story, they'll choose to have it follow from an 'ending' that was none of the ones the player could actually get during the game, so as to include the most possible characters.
Ah, OK. Well, because of how FSN works, I doubt they're ever going to do a sequel in that way, because it's very hard to justify having all the servants around. The fighting games and such like are set during the Grail War, and thus run parallel to the original game (rather than being a sequel to it).

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With HA it doesn't really matter, because it's all illusionary or whatnot, but if they ever made 'Fate/Stay Night 2', I really wouldn't be surprised to find that Rin, Sakura, Saber, Rider, and Illya are all alive and living in Japan with Shirou. Somehow.
Fate/Stay Night 2 would be very hard to do, because solving Sakura's situation is pretty much mutually exclusive with doing anything else, and bringing all the servants back is very difficult due to the war the Grail War works.

I suppose one option would be a 'HF Good' end, where Saber is somehow saved (and contracted to Sakura) and Ilya managed to somehow save Shirou and Archer without dying herself (because Sakura could contract Rider and Saber, and Rin could contract Archer), but that would not be popular amongst the fandom (especially in Japan) because it would imply Shirou x Sakura was 'more' canon, and a lot of fans would not like it one bit (incidentally, it seems like Nasu is a closet Sakura x Shirou shipper, but he keeps it quiet because of how unpopular Sakura is in Japan).
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Old 2010-07-20, 09:39   Link #2224
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Seriously, it's ridiculous. If nothing else, you'd think that someone would notice her by then.



Caren wasn't there at the time. She only showed up after the war, once Kotomine was dead.
::shrug:: Then I guess we really are expected to believe that Bazett survived alone for two weeks with a knife in her back and one arm off, and that nobody found her during this time. Extremely unlikely, but maybe possible. If Kotomine ditched her body in an foreclosed building or something it's possible nobody would have seen her, and she was still alive so she wouldn't have started rotting to let anyone find her by the smell. As for how she survived two weeks with horrible open wounds in a foreclosed bacteria-infested hellhole with no water or food... um...

Magic?

Maybe HA has a better explanation that we'll get to see once it's finally translated.


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Ah, OK. Well, because of how FSN works, I doubt they're ever going to do a sequel in that way, because it's very hard to justify having all the servants around. The fighting games and such like are set during the Grail War, and thus run parallel to the original game (rather than being a sequel to it).


Fate/Stay Night 2 would be very hard to do, because solving Sakura's situation is pretty much mutually exclusive with doing anything else, and bringing all the servants back is very difficult due to the war the Grail War works.

I suppose one option would be a 'HF Good' end, where Saber is somehow saved (and contracted to Sakura) and Ilya managed to somehow save Shirou and Archer without dying herself (because Sakura could contract Rider and Saber, and Rin could contract Archer), but that would not be popular amongst the fandom (especially in Japan) because it would imply Shirou x Sakura was 'more' canon, and a lot of fans would not like it one bit (incidentally, it seems like Nasu is a closet Sakura x Shirou shipper, but he keeps it quiet because of how unpopular Sakura is in Japan).
... now I kind of want to write a fanfiction that ends the Holy Grail War in an 'everybody lives' ending that also deals with Sakura's Grail Issues. Just because I'm not sure I could pull it off.

It couldn't follow HF too closely (it would be essential that Shirou not lose his arm, at least, so as to allow more Rule Breaker abuse... or would Rulebreaker even reverse Dark Saber? I'd like to think that if it would, Shirou might have tried using it in actual HF, but maybe he just couldn't waste the projection with so few shots left), but would have to follow it enough that the issues with Zouken and Angra Mainyu became known and dealt with. I could take a page from the anime and have Caster's screwing around help out, bringing up her original plan to 'force' the Grail to appear with brute force and soul stealing, allowing Sakura's corruption to happen with fewer Servant absorptions. A Zouken/Caster alliance? God, there's a match made in Hell if ever there was one.

... Dammit! I have enough on my plate already, but I have to at least take a shot at this! It might not ever get further than an outline, but...
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Old 2010-07-20, 10:02   Link #2225
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An easier way for everyone to live seems to be just following UBW-Good, and having it so Ilya remained the grail rather than Shinji being forced to become it. Doesn't directly solve the Sakura/Zouken problem, but wouldn't be too hard to use that as part of the sequel's story.

Keeping the Servants other than Saber around would be tough, but just use the Sakura/Zouken situation to create a new grail. It's not like the grail was unique from my understanding, so they could theoretically create another one given enough time and knowledge. I'd assume Zouken would have that knowledge. They could also attempt to deal with Ilya and find a way to keep her around.
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Old 2010-07-20, 11:47   Link #2226
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I suppose one option would be a 'HF Good' end, where Saber is somehow saved (and contracted to Sakura) and Ilya managed to somehow save Shirou and Archer without dying herself (because Sakura could contract Rider and Saber, and Rin could contract Archer), but that would not be popular amongst the fandom (especially in Japan) because it would imply Shirou x Sakura was 'more' canon, and a lot of fans would not like it one bit (incidentally, it seems like Nasu is a closet Sakura x Shirou shipper, but he keeps it quiet because of how unpopular Sakura is in Japan).
Nasu is a fan of them? That's good trivia. Why isn't Sakura popular in Japan? The whole not being a virgin thing?

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An easier way for everyone to live seems to be just following UBW-Good, and having it so Ilya remained the grail rather than Shinji being forced to become it. Doesn't directly solve the Sakura/Zouken problem, but wouldn't be too hard to use that as part of the sequel's story.

Keeping the Servants other than Saber around would be tough, but just use the Sakura/Zouken situation to create a new grail. It's not like the grail was unique from my understanding, so they could theoretically create another one given enough time and knowledge. I'd assume Zouken would have that knowledge. They could also attempt to deal with Ilya and find a way to keep her around.
I think that would be the best way to do it. However the romance is what would prevent it from happening. Dark Sakura would probably kill Shirou and Rin if they were officially together and everything. She was so overpowered, lol.

But there is no way of doing a solid sequel, that's why they came up with HA's wacky story and everything. The only way they could do a sequel is to sequel each route's endings, which would prove most difficult.
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Old 2010-07-20, 11:49   Link #2227
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Her name was Bazett Fraga McRemitz, a magus from the mage association. She basically exists to prove that Lancer has the worst luck of all time, because she's very cute, an action girl who could have fought alongside him very well, and a massive Cu Chulainn fangirl who only joined the war so she could summon and meet Lancer specifically.
By the by, I double checked to make sure, and yup... Lancer really does have the lowest possible luck stat.

Gameplay and Story Integration for the win!

Other unlucky folks include Archer, True Assassin, and for some reason Rider's luck drops down to rank E when she switches out Shinji and draws on Sakura as her Master. Her others stats go up, so I wonder why that is?
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Old 2010-07-20, 12:29   Link #2228
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... now I kind of want to write a fanfiction that ends the Holy Grail War in an 'everybody lives' ending that also deals with Sakura's Grail Issues. Just because I'm not sure I could pull it off.
It would be interesting to see, yes.

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It couldn't follow HF too closely (it would be essential that Shirou not lose his arm, at least, so as to allow more Rule Breaker abuse... or would Rulebreaker even reverse Dark Saber? I'd like to think that if it would, Shirou might have tried using it in actual HF, but maybe he just couldn't waste the projection with so few shots left), but would have to follow it enough that the issues with Zouken and Angra Mainyu became known and dealt with.
I don't think Rule Breaker could save Saber at that point, TBH. Her very soul is corrupted. Breaking the contract would leave her without a master, but still dark and unable to heal her wounds (and thus she'd vanish soon after).

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I could take a page from the anime and have Caster's screwing around help out, bringing up her original plan to 'force' the Grail to appear with brute force and soul stealing, allowing Sakura's corruption to happen with fewer Servant absorptions. A Zouken/Caster alliance? God, there's a match made in Hell if ever there was one.
The problem is two-fold. Firstly, the anime isn't canon, and in particular what Caster does there is simply not possible. The Grail can only work using the souls of Heroic Spirits. If it were possible to open the gate (or even to make any significant contribution to the prana supply needed to do so) by sucking prana from the town, then the Grail would have been set up to do so (hell, that's what it does do (only the prana is used to summon the servant), and it takes 60 years (usually) for the Grail to be full enough even to summon the servants). Secondly, why would Caster work with Zouken? Their goals are entirely incompatible (Caster just wants to live with Kuzuki, Zouken needs her soul to power the Grail) and I doubt she could stand him.

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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
An easier way for everyone to live seems to be just following UBW-Good, and having it so Ilya remained the grail rather than Shinji being forced to become it. Doesn't directly solve the Sakura/Zouken problem, but wouldn't be too hard to use that as part of the sequel's story.
It depends how you define 'everyone'. None of the servants are there, except Saber. My solution allows all the 'good' servants to remain, because Sakura post-HF can support an arbitrary number of them, provided they're still alive at the end. Maybe you'd need to fiddle around with the progression of the route somewhat to make it work, but it's not impossible.

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Keeping the Servants other than Saber around would be tough, but just use the Sakura/Zouken situation to create a new grail. It's not like the grail was unique from my understanding, so they could theoretically create another one given enough time and knowledge. I'd assume Zouken would have that knowledge. They could also attempt to deal with Ilya and find a way to keep her around.
The thing is, if they do that then the sequel becomes essentially a rehash of HF, only without Shirou's feelings for Sakura to enable him to save her. Either that or they royally screw over Sakura by killing her to make the Grail (or something), which wouldn't fit with the whole "good end" idea (and would infuriate Sakura fans).

Plus, I doubt they would want to make any pairing canon, which is what following UBW Good would do (of course, following HF would so the same, so...).
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Old 2010-07-20, 13:33   Link #2229
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Say, why did they name it "Heaven's Feel" if that's the name of the dress Illya wore? I think I remember them saying it was the name of the Third Sorcery that saved Shirou, is that right? Cause I thought it was titled after Sakura, since she ( I'm already laughing) made Shirou feel like he was in Heaven and her herself feels like Heaven.
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Old 2010-07-20, 13:38   Link #2230
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Heaven's Feel is the name of the ritual that is the Holy Grail War, and since HF covers the backstory and true motivations behind said war in the most detail, it was named after it.

Although I could easily buy your explanation....
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Old 2010-07-20, 14:44   Link #2231
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Okay, that does make sense. I will really have to pay more attention when I play it again.

I like mine too, haha.
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Old 2010-07-20, 16:56   Link #2232
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
The problem is two-fold. Firstly, the anime isn't canon, and in particular what Caster does there is simply not possible. The Grail can only work using the souls of Heroic Spirits. If it were possible to open the gate (or even to make any significant contribution to the prana supply needed to do so) by sucking prana from the town, then the Grail would have been set up to do so (hell, that's what it does do (only the prana is used to summon the servant), and it takes 60 years (usually) for the Grail to be full enough even to summon the servants). Secondly, why would Caster work with Zouken? Their goals are entirely incompatible (Caster just wants to live with Kuzuki, Zouken needs her soul to power the Grail) and I doubt she could stand him.
Well, that's why we're still in the planning stage . Like I said, at the moment this is just a rampant plotbunny that might never even get past storyboarding. I'm going to at least have to check through UBW to recall what Caster was planning to do there... she had some plan for cheating at the Grail, I distinctly recall her saying she'd 'figured out the trick behind it', but I can't remember what it was for the life of me.

Though villains aren't hard to team up. I just have to think of some way that each could conceivably think of to use the other's activities to their advantage before stabbing them in the back. They don't have to like each other, just be convinced they're using and will eventually dispose of each other.
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Old 2010-07-20, 17:17   Link #2233
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Well, to answer your questions Rule Breaker wouldn't work on Saber Alter, at least canonically. Rule Breaker severs connections, not outright nullifies magic. Saber Alter has the very core of her soul corrupted by AM and the Grail's power. She still resists it somehow but eventually she would fall completely to it and there's no canonically stated way to reverse it(other than pulling her ahoge in Hollow Atartaxia...well, it was played for laughs only). To solve Saber's problem the most canon-true method would be Gilgamesh. He's the Doraemon of the Nasuverse who can pull out about any kind of magic item. Also it could be ironic and the sole good deed of Gil. Perhaps orchestrating a situation where Gilgamesh would do it and without obliterating everyone else to keep Saber is a quite tricky...the very least.

Other than that it's been theorized that Rule Breaker can only work on Dark Sakura after she reached that stage where her connection to AM is obvious(perma-Dark Sakura). It's just a theory but might be true. Anyways, if we keep everyone in-character and same with the canon Sakura would only turn dark under extreme emotional stress which surely involves Shirou and him showing feelings to her. Other alternative is her sister warming up to Sakura, but that would be obviously out of character to Rin. And otherwise there's little to no chance of finding out Sakura's situation.

All in all getting a real good ending is as close to impossible if we want Illya, Sakura and Saber alive.
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Old 2010-07-20, 17:21   Link #2234
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To solve Saber's problem the most canon-true method would be Gilgamesh. He's the Doraemon of the Nasuverse who can pull out about any kind of magic item. Also it could be ironic and the sole good deed of Gil. Perhaps orchestrating a situation where Gilgamesh would do it and without obliterating everyone else to keep Saber is a quite tricky...the very least.
... ... ... ... ... I like it.

Gilgamesh the reluctant hero! Oh my... and then... oh, I have scenes in mind.

And honestly, the comedy value in a Shirou/Gilgamesh team-up is wonderful too, however it happens.
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Old 2010-07-20, 17:29   Link #2235
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To solve Saber's problem the most canon-true method would be Gilgamesh. He's the Doraemon of the Nasuverse who can pull out about any kind of magic item. Also it could be ironic and the sole good deed of Gil. Perhaps orchestrating a situation where Gilgamesh would do it and without obliterating everyone else to keep Saber is a quite tricky...the very least.
I think you're somewhat over-estimating Gilgamesh here. Whilst it's not impossible that he has such things, it's highly unlikely.

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Other than that it's been theorized that Rule Breaker can only work on Dark Sakura after she reached that stage where her connection to AM is obvious(perma-Dark Sakura). It's just a theory but might be true. Anyways, if we keep everyone in-character and same with the canon Sakura would only turn dark under extreme emotional stress which surely involves Shirou and him showing feelings to her. Other alternative is her sister warming up to Sakura, but that would be obviously out of character to Rin. And otherwise there's little to no chance of finding out Sakura's situation.
Not necessarily, although it'd be harder to activate her fully without Shirou's love giving her something to lose.

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All in all getting a real good ending is as close to impossible if we want Illya, Sakura and Saber alive.
Not necessarily. HF with Saber not dying and Shirou not getting the GARm could work.
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Old 2010-07-20, 17:32   Link #2236
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I think you're somewhat over-estimating Gilgamesh here. Whilst it's not impossible that he has such things, it's highly unlikely.
I'm already looking into it. I'm sure there's some mythological sword that was used for exorcisms or some garbage like that. Remember, this is still the Nasuverse... all rules exist only so they can later be broken when someone shows off how incredible they are, and Handwaves are a way of life!
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Old 2010-07-20, 17:39   Link #2237
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I think you're somewhat over-estimating Gilgamesh here. Whilst it's not impossible that he has such things, it's highly unlikely.
Shouldn't be too hard to have some sort of purification weapon. Lance of Longinus, for example, could be TypeMooned to have purification effects just like how Hrunting was TypeMooned to never miss. From "Never Fail" to "Never Miss" isn't much different from "Holy Lance" to "Lance of Purification".

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Not necessarily. HF with Saber not dying and Shirou not getting the GARm could work.
Without something to distract him, wouldn't Archer decide to go UBW on Shirou though? Unless he decides that this "Shirou" couldn't possibly fulfill his goal after altering his ideals or something like that.
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Old 2010-07-20, 17:51   Link #2238
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One option is to not make Saber dark. As in, she never get's captured by the shadow. Rider would come in time to save both Shirou & Saber.

And I think I have come to terms with HF now, so I am adjusting my sig & av accordingly.
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Old 2010-07-20, 17:55   Link #2239
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Shouldn't be too hard to have some sort of purification weapon. Lance of Longinus, for example, could be TypeMooned to have purification effects just like how Hrunting was TypeMooned to never miss. From "Never Fail" to "Never Miss" isn't much different from "Holy Lance" to "Lance of Purification".
Well, yes, perhaps. But, then, the purification effects of the Lance of Longinus, if they existed, would come from the biblical tale, and thus Gil's version (if he had one) wouldn't have them.

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Without something to distract him, wouldn't Archer decide to go UBW on Shirou though? Unless he decides that this "Shirou" couldn't possibly fulfill his goal after altering his ideals or something like that.
As long as the shadow is around, Archer would leave his grudge against Shirou behind, because he recognises the danger.

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One option is to not make Saber dark. As in, she never get's captured by the shadow. Rider would come in time to save both Shirou & Saber.
Well, that's what I meant by not being 'dead'.

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And I think I have come to terms with HF now, so I am adjusting my sig & av accordingly.
You know, I should get an avatar....
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Old 2010-07-20, 18:07   Link #2240
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Well, that's what I meant by not being 'dead'.
Oh, okay, haha.

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You know, I should get an avatar....
Fresh off the oven:
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