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View Poll Results: Who’s Under the Mask?
Madara 104 32.91%
Madara’s Son 14 4.43%
Madara’s Clone 30 9.49%
Madara’s Ghost/Soul/Poltergeist given shape... 33 10.44%
Obito 59 18.67%
Obito’s Body, but not really Obito... 55 17.41%
Someone else’s body (not Obito’s)... 21 6.65%
Zetsu’s Love Child... 23 7.28%
Tobirama/Sarutobi/or anyone with a 'tobi' in their name... 16 5.06%
Bruce Wayne or other… 69 21.84%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 316. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-07-20, 16:44   Link #221
TheCoconutChef
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Madara was never confirmed dead in the data books or the series.
I'll admit to not knowing what the Data book is, but as far as I'm concerned, Madara was assumed to be dead and said to be dead several time in the serie.

Didn't Minato just went: "Are you Madara? But you're dead lol?" in chapter 502?

We were told that Madara was dead. We were told that Itachi was evil. We were told that Madara stole Izuna eye. We were told a lot of things that turned out to be false, especially when they're flashbacks.
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Old 2010-07-20, 17:10   Link #222
james0246
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Originally Posted by TheCoconutChef View Post
We were told that Madara was dead. We were told that Itachi was evil. We were told that Madara stole Izuna eye. We were told a lot of things that turned out to be false, especially when they're flashbacks.
No, we were always told Madara was dead with a big ol'question mark by the statement (Kyuubi raised the question, as did Jiraiya, then Itachi and then finally Madara himself), we simply assumed he was dead since his battle with Hashirama happened 50-60 years in the past (and when you take into account just how much he was foreshadowed in the end of Part I and the beginning of Part II, it seems pretty obvious that Madara was never confirmed dead by anyone).

Additionally, we saw Obito die (or at least we saw him seconds away from death, then a pull back as the rocks crushing him finished the job) and we saw Izuna's body laid out in a coffin, so taking those instance as well as the data book entries that list them as being dead, the only conclusion that we can draw is that the two characters are dead. That doesn't mean their bodies couldn't have been used for nefarious purposes (the Jyuubi took over the bodies, etc) or they couldn't have been resurrected (via Edo Tensei, etc), but with the information we have now, the statement "Obito/Izuna is dead" is fact, anything else is speculation and should be treated as such (of course, speculation can become fact over time, but right now "Obito/Izuna" is dead is still fact).

Last edited by james0246; 2010-07-20 at 17:22.
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Old 2010-07-20, 20:26   Link #223
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Don't assume dead = dead with this series. How many characters have immortality or were brought back to life? Gaara was dead. Zabuza was thought dead. Kakashi was dead. Many Konoha ninjas were dead and then brought back to life by Nagato. Orochimaru was thought to be dead, before being killed again. And then how recently was it that Kisame died? I mean, we saw his head get cut off, so he must be dead, right? Nope.
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Old 2010-07-20, 20:41   Link #224
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Don't assume dead = dead with this series. How many characters have immortality or were brought back to life? Gaara was dead. Zabuza was thought dead. Kakashi was dead. Many Konaha ninjas were dead and then brought back to life by Nagato. Orochimaru was thought to be dead, before being killed again.
There is a big difference between presumed dead and stated dead in an official data book. The data books list the 2 Uchihas as being deceased, not presumed, but actually deceased. Orochimaru, though, is stated as potentially having some way of coming back to life. Notice the difference? Additionally, since Kakashi, Zabuza and Kisame all rose from the dead mere moments after their death, they are in no way comparable to Obito or Izuna who died decades ago (and many many chapters ago).

Last edited by james0246; 2010-07-20 at 21:13.
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Old 2010-07-20, 21:52   Link #225
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And then how recently was it that Kisame died? I mean, we saw his head get cut off, so he must be dead, right? Nope.
It was always pretty obvious that Kisame was alive, 'his' head was still talking even after 'he' was decapitated.
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Old 2010-07-20, 22:22   Link #226
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
There is a big difference between presumed dead and stated dead in an official data book. The data books list the 2 Uchihas as being deceased, not presumed, but actually deceased. Orochimaru, though, is stated as potentially having some way of coming back to life. Notice the difference? Additionally, since Kakashi, Zabuza and Kisame all rose from the dead mere moments after their death, they are in no way comparable to Obito or Izuna who died decades ago (and many many chapters ago).
Really, so there actually is a small possibility that they could take the revive Orochimaru thru Kabuto route...
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Old 2010-07-20, 22:45   Link #227
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
There is a big difference between presumed dead and stated dead in an official data book. The data books list the 2 Uchihas as being deceased, not presumed, but actually deceased. Orochimaru, though, is stated as potentially having some way of coming back to life. Notice the difference?
Specious logic. Obviously there are differences. One could argue that Kisame looks like a fish, but Obito doesn't (there's another difference), but that doesn't mean they aren't comparable. The differences don't change the similarities I pointed out - namely that characters thought to be dead actually turned out not to be.

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Additionally, since Kakashi, Zabuza and Kisame all rose from the dead mere moments after their death, they are in no way comparable to Obito or Izuna who died decades ago (and many many chapters ago).
'Length of time' isn't an argument that holds water. How long did Kishimoto draw out the 'secret of Pain' revelation? How long is he going to draw out the 'identity of Tobi' revelation? Since Kishi didn't unmask Tobi for many many chapters, does it therefore follow that he will never unmask Tobi?
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Old 2010-07-21, 00:23   Link #228
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Specious logic. Obviously there are differences. One could argue that Kisame looks like a fish, but Obito doesn't (there's another difference), but that doesn't mean they aren't comparable. The differences don't change the similarities I pointed out - namely that characters thought to be dead actually turned out not to be.
Until shown otherwise trying to argue that they are still around simply because resurrection techniques exists is preposterous reasoning (since said logic would make it just as likely for Sarutobi to be walking around somewhere, not to mention Jiraiya, and any other characters that we have not seen since their death). They are dead until confirmed alive/zombie and arguing otherwise (beyond mere speculation) is pointless.

That being said, if the data books wish to be ambiguous, they will be (for instance, it was not confirmed if Kushina was alive or dead, the information was intentionally left vague so as to leave room for the eventual reveal of her character). Otherwise the entries are pretty straight forward (and sadly, Obito's and Izuna's info isn't very ambiguous). So, if they claim Izuna and Obito are dead, then we are left with their death as fact. That doesn't mean that they couldn't have been resurrected, but there is no actual evidence that points specifically to that speculation...

Last edited by james0246; 2010-07-21 at 00:58.
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Old 2010-07-21, 10:29   Link #229
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Until shown otherwise trying to argue that they are still around simply because resurrection techniques exists is preposterous reasoning (since said logic would make it just as likely for Sarutobi to be walking around somewhere, not to mention Jiraiya, and any other characters that we have not seen since their death). They are dead until confirmed alive/zombie and arguing otherwise (beyond mere speculation) is pointless.
Clearly it's not pointless since we have a masked Uchiha running around and every Uchiha we've seen alive is dead besides Sasuke. So, I guess Sasuke is Tobi then until proven otherwise...

Quote:
That being said, if the data books wish to be ambiguous, they will be (for instance, it was not confirmed if Kushina was alive or dead, the information was intentionally left vague so as to leave room for the eventual reveal of her character). Otherwise the entries are pretty straight forward (and sadly, Obito's and Izuna's info isn't very ambiguous). So, if they claim Izuna and Obito are dead, then we are left with their death as fact. That doesn't mean that they couldn't have been resurrected, but there is no actual evidence that points specifically to that speculation...
Despite your denial, there are several pieces of evidence that point to the idea of Tobi being Obito. You're looking for answers to Tobi's identity in the databook, and you're not going to find it. It's not as if Kishimoto would reveal Tobi's identity by putting a big question mark over Obito's death.
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Old 2010-07-21, 11:47   Link #230
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Clearly it's not pointless since we have a masked Uchiha running around and every Uchiha we've seen alive is dead besides Sasuke. So, I guess Sasuke is Tobi then until proven otherwise...
I really do not understanding your reasoning process. We've never seen Madara dead, but we have seen Obito, Izuna, Fugaku, Itachi, etc dead (technically we've never seen Shisui's dead body, but it would be a little weird for Shisui to be Tobi), so by your logic any of them could be Tobi...

(Also, who says Tobi is actually an Uchiha? Just because he has a Sharingan?)

That being said, instead of focusing on the fact I acknowledge a character's death, why don't you focus on the fact that I equally acknowledge the potential for rebirth? What just because I wish to acknowledge the facts of the situation that means I refuse to acknowledge legitimate speculation? No. I am more than happy to debate the possibility of Obito/Izuna's resurrection, but if you aren't even willing to acknowledge that the basic fact of their deaths is known, then holding any conversation with you is pointless.

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Despite your denial, there are several pieces of evidence that point to the idea of Tobi being Obito. You're looking for answers to Tobi's identity in the databook, and you're not going to find it.
What denial? I started this thread specifically because I felt that the identity of Tobi was sufficiently called into question to warrant an actual discussion topic. Added to that, I've acknowledged time and time again that either Obito's dead body could have been taken by outside forces or even resurrected by others (the only thing I disagree with in regards to Obito is his survival, anything else is a possibility, except his survival). So I deny nothing about the speculation, I simply don't see it as valid because I find the evidence circumstantial at best (the only legitimate piece of evidence is the similarity between Kamui and Tobi/Madara's Space/Time Ninjutsu, but that does not actually indicate that Tobi/Madara is Obito).

(That being said, the Tobi entry specifically said that Madara was Tobi (and the Madara entry said that he was disguised as Tobi), so, realistically, an answer has already been provided, it’s just that many of us refuse to accept the answer due to the mystery of the mask.)

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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
It's not as if Kishimoto would reveal Tobi's identity by putting a big question mark over Obito's death.
Why couldn’t he have added ambiguity to the entry on Obito's death (as he added ambiguity to several other very important character bios in the past)? Kishimoto and his editors go out of their way to make the data books compliant with the story and even the possibility of a story. Many entries are either left blank or purposely vague so as to leave room for even the potential of story to be revealed in the future, even if said potential never actually amounts to anything (i.e. Karin's and Danzou's entries were left vague, and now we know that neither reveal was very interesting; but Nagato's entry was also left vague to stupendous results). So why couldn’t he have done the same thing with Obito, especially considering that when the second book came out (which is the data book that indexed Obito’s role in the story), Tobi hadn’t even been introduced?
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Old 2010-07-21, 19:41   Link #231
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I really do not understanding your reasoning process. We've never seen Madara dead, but we have seen Obito, Izuna, Fugaku, Itachi, etc dead (technically we've never seen Shisui's dead body, but it would be a little weird for Shisui to be Tobi), so by your logic any of them could be Tobi...
We saw Obito dying, we saw Izuna dead in flashback and we also saw Madara's death in flashback (impaled by a sword). Madara was thought dead by Konoha and yet he was suspected of being the masked ninja. So, I'm sorry to say that if you don't understand my reasoning, then you don't understand the reasoning of pretty much every character in the manga.

Quote:
(Also, who says Tobi is actually an Uchiha? Just because he has a Sharingan?)
Yeah, we've moved beyond Danzo ... or did you mean Kakashi? I'm leaning towards neither. And I don't think I'd be willing to debate whether Tobi's identity is really a third non-Uchiha with an implanted Sharingan that has never existed in the manga. Suspecting a non-existent character - now there's something that's actually pointless. Besides that, we've seen Tobi use his warping ability often - compare that with how Kakashi nearly puts himself into a coma after only a couple of uses of the warping ability of his implanted Sharingan.

Quote:
That being said, instead of focusing on the fact I acknowledge a character's death, why don't you focus on the fact that I equally acknowledge the potential for rebirth? What just because I wish to acknowledge the facts of the situation that means I refuse to acknowledge legitimate speculation? No. I am more than happy to debate the possibility of Obito/Izuna's resurrection, but if you aren't even willing to acknowledge that the basic fact of their deaths is known, then holding any conversation with you is pointless.
Replace 'Obito' with 'Kisame' and your argument falls apart quite easily. You're asking me to accept everything the manga shows us at face value and you just can't with this manga. Kisame's death, Orochimaru's death, Itachi's motives, Bee's capture by Sasuke, ad infinitum. If you've been following this manga at all, then you should know better.


Quote:
What denial? I started this thread specifically because I felt that the identity of Tobi was sufficiently called into question to warrant an actual discussion topic. Added to that, I've acknowledged time and time again that either Obito's dead body could have been taken by outside forces or even resurrected by others (the only thing I disagree with in regards to Obito is his survival, anything else is a possibility, except his survival). So I deny nothing about the speculation, I simply don't see it as valid because I find the evidence circumstantial at best (the only legitimate piece of evidence is the similarity between Kamui and Tobi/Madara's Space/Time Ninjutsu, but that does not actually indicate that Tobi/Madara is Obito).
There's more evidence than that.

- Similarity between Kamui and Tobi's warping ability
- Zetsu still refers to Tobi as Tobi, and earlier referred to him as a 'boy'. How many boy Uchihas do we know? Sasuke, Itachi, maybe Shisui, and then Obito.
- From what we know about Tobi's body, his right arm was artificial (created by Zetsu) and the right side of his face is full of creases/striations (also similar to White Zetsu's face). Now let's ask ourselves who could be missing parts of the right side of their body? Certainly Obito would, since his right half was crushed by rocks.
- The name: There are at least a couple characters with "tobi" in their name (Sarutobi, Tobirama). But what matters is the characters that are used. And the characters in Sarutobi and Tobirama don't match those of Tobi. However, Obito's do.

Quote:
(That being said, the Tobi entry specifically said that Madara was Tobi (and the Madara entry said that he was disguised as Tobi), so, realistically, an answer has already been provided, it’s just that many of us refuse to accept the answer due to the mystery of the mask.)
It's not our refusal to accept Madara as Tobi. It's the manga itself that asks us the question.
cf. Chapter 500 "Who is this masked man?"

Quote:
Why couldn’t he have added ambiguity to the entry on Obito's death (as he added ambiguity to several other very important character bios in the past)? Kishimoto and his editors go out of their way to make the data books compliant with the story and even the possibility of a story. Many entries are either left blank or purposely vague so as to leave room for even the potential of story to be revealed in the future, even if said potential never actually amounts to anything (i.e. Karin's and Danzou's entries were left vague, and now we know that neither reveal was very interesting; but Nagato's entry was also left vague to stupendous results). So why couldn’t he have done the same thing with Obito, especially considering that when the second book came out (which is the data book that indexed Obito’s role in the story), Tobi hadn’t even been introduced?
I believe that, to a certain extent, Kishimoto doesn't know exactly what he wants to do with some characters (a year or several months in advance) and so their entries are necessarily vague. However, I do believe that Obito being Tobi is one of the things that he had planned out early on. Tobi is the critical villain of this series, so I'm sure Kishimoto had already thought through his history. Before part 2.
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Old 2010-07-22, 01:01   Link #232
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Replace 'Obito' with 'Kisame' and your argument falls apart quite easily. You're asking me to accept everything the manga shows us at face value and you just can't with this manga. Kisame's death, Orochimaru's death, Itachi's motives, Bee's capture by Sasuke, ad infinitum. If you've been following this manga at all, then you should know better.
Again, there is a big difference between a character dying (or pretending to die) but then coming back a few chapters later, and a character dying and never being shown to return. Both "died" but only one was ever truly acknowledged as being dead...

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- Similarity between Kamui and Tobi's warping ability.
Ah, but if the Sharingan/MS turns out to be a streamlined ability (i.e. all Uchiha posses the same basic abilities (which is the currently accepted speculation)), then the similarity becomes a moot point. In the end, the similarity does not necessitate Obito's existence.

Additionally, even if it turns out to be an Obito exclusive that still doesn't mean that Tobi is Obito. Tobi/Madara has a wall of Sharingan eyes, so it is just as likely that Obito's eye could have been taken leaving Obito's body to rot (or if Zetsu is around, be eaten).

(If the speculation that Zetsu = Tobi turns out to be true, then it is easy to hypothesize that Zetsu ate Obito and reconstructed an Uchiha body from the dead Obito...but that still means Obito is not Tobi .)

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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
- Zetsu still refers to Tobi as Tobi, and earlier referred to him as a 'boy'. How many boy Uchihas do we know? Sasuke, Itachi, maybe Shisui, and then Obito.
Since little is known of Zetsu, it isn't really safe to make any speculation based on this strange character with a split personality. For instance, who’s to say that Zetsu isn't hundreds of years old?

Additionally, Zetsu's use of "boy" could just as easily be a carryover from when Tobi acted like a childish fool. In other words, it’s a joke that Zetsu has kept up.

Honestly, the comment need be only as deep as each audience member wishes it to be. Nothing about it actually indicates anything (though I fully admit it could act as very deep foreshadowing for an eventual reveal, but until such a reveal the comments mean very little).

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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
- From what we know about Tobi's body, his right arm was artificial (created by Zetsu) and the right side of his face is full of creases/striations (also similar to White Zetsu's face). Now let's ask ourselves who could be missing parts of the right side of their body? Certainly Obito would, since his right half was crushed by rocks.
Tobi loses an arm of his left side in Chapter 503. So, that kind of debunks this speculation...

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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
- The name: There are at least a couple characters with "tobi" in their name (Sarutobi, Tobirama). But what matters is the characters that are used. And the characters in Sarutobi and Tobirama don't match those of Tobi. However, Obito's do.
The vast majority of the first names in the series are written in katakana, so this is a non-point. You might as well say that Nagato and Naruto are related considering that there is only a one character difference in their names.

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It's not our refusal to accept Madara as Tobi. It's the manga itself that asks us the question.
cf. Chapter 500 "Who is this masked man?"
That was a flashback...it has no bearing on the current storyline, nor Tobi revealing himself as Madara.

Additionally, just two chapters later the question was answered : Madara.

That being said, even if it did matter, that still doesn't necessarily indicate Obito. As I have said many times, there is ample evidence that Tobi could potentially be someone or something besides Madara, I just don't see Obito as being a frotrunner in the "Who is Tobi" debate.

Honestly, the only reason we actually think Tobi could be someone besides Madara is because of the mask. But, when you really think about it, is that even a reason to suspect otherwise? Specifically, Kakashi has 75% of his face covered, yet no-one doubts that he is Kakashi, why can't it be the same for Tobi/Madara?

In the end, Kishimoto said, yet again in the third data book, that Madara will ditch the mask when he sets his ambitions in motion. Assuming that the war is the official start of Madara's plans, we could be seeing Madara's face in just a few chapters...

---

Personally, I'm surprised there haven't been more Kagami Uchiha theories in this thread/sub-forum...

Last edited by james0246; 2010-07-22 at 02:10.
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Old 2010-07-22, 20:07   Link #233
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Again, there is a big difference between a character dying (or pretending to die) but then coming back a few chapters later, and a character dying and never being shown to return. Both "died" but only one was ever truly acknowledged as being dead...
The only difference here is that I give Kishimoto more credit than you do. I believe Kishimoto can hold onto a thought for more than a few chapters. It was 14 chapters for Kisame (what did you say was the cutoff again?). And now we've recently seen characters that died even longer ago - Nagato, Kakuzu, Itachi, Sasori. I'm not sure what you consider a "big difference", but whatever it is, it's not substantiated by the manga.

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Ah, but if the Sharingan/MS turns out to be a streamlined ability (i.e. all Uchiha posses the same basic abilities (which is the currently accepted speculation)), then the similarity becomes a moot point. In the end, the similarity does not necessitate Obito's existence.
The similarity suggests a connection with Obito. That's the point - that this is a clue, not a smoking gun. Tobi's warping ability is one of the few clues we have about his identity. And it does point to Obito. If it points to someone else as well, then let's hear it.

Quote:
Additionally, even if it turns out to be an Obito exclusive that still doesn't mean that Tobi is Obito. Tobi/Madara has a wall of Sharingan eyes, so it is just as likely that Obito's eye could have been taken leaving Obito's body to rot (or if Zetsu is around, be eaten).
Well that was my theory, in fact. It connects the ideas that Zetsu created Tobi and that there is a connection between Tobi and Obito.

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(If the speculation that Zetsu = Tobi turns out to be true, then it is easy to hypothesize that Zetsu ate Obito and reconstructed an Uchiha body from the dead Obito...but that still means Obito is not Tobi .)
I have already hypothesized that.

Quote:
Since little is known of Zetsu, it isn't really safe to make any speculation based on this strange character with a split personality. For instance, who’s to say that Zetsu isn't hundreds of years old?
If we waited until we knew everything about Zetsu, then it wouldn't be speculation at all.

Quote:
Additionally, Zetsu's use of "boy" could just as easily be a carryover from when Tobi acted like a childish fool. In other words, it’s a joke that Zetsu has kept up.
Or maybe it's not.

Quote:
Tobi loses an arm of his left side in Chapter 503. So, that kind of debunks this speculation...
It would be debunked if Minato cut off Tobi's right arm and it was shown to be a real arm (i.e. showing that Minato was responsible for Tobi having an artificial right arm). The left hand doesn't debunk anything, sorry.

Quote:
The vast majority of the first names in the series are written in katakana, so this is a non-point. You might as well say that Nagato and Naruto are related considering that there is only a one character difference in their names.
They were related. The connection between Naruto and Nagato was established during Nagato's talk with Naruto. Jiraiya's story about Naruto was inspired by Nagato. So, thanks for pointing that out. You've just given precedence to a connection existing between Obito and Tobi.

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That was a flashback...it has no bearing on the current storyline, nor Tobi revealing himself as Madara.
False? What does "No bearing on the current storyline" mean? Every new chapter that Kishimoto writes has a bearing on the storyline - flashbacks included.

Quote:
Additionally, just two chapters later the question was answered : Madara.
Except it wasn't answered. It was Minato asking the question.

Quote:
That being said, even if it did matter, that still doesn't necessarily indicate Obito. As I have said many times, there is ample evidence that Tobi could potentially be someone or something besides Madara, I just don't see Obito as being a frotrunner in the "Who is Tobi" debate.
Apparently, the name, Madara, doesn't answer the question of 'Who is Tobi?' unless this how you remember Chapter 502?

Minato: Are you Uchiha Madara?
Tobi: Yes. (takes mask off). Tell him what he's won

Quote:
Honestly, the only reason we actually think Tobi could be someone besides Madara is because of the mask. But, when you really think about it, is that even a reason to suspect otherwise? Specifically, Kakashi has 75% of his face covered, yet no-one doubts that he is Kakashi, why can't it be the same for Tobi/Madara?
Let's be realistic. The only thing missing from Kakashi's face are two dots and a line. But more importantly, that's how we've always seen Kakashi - so basically that is his face. But Tobi's masked appearance is not how we know Madara. Madara's appearance is that of the statue seen at the valley of the End. How do people logically confirm someone's identity in real life? Photo ID. Tobi doesn't match the photo ID and so, logically, we should be suspicious.
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Old 2010-07-22, 21:39   Link #234
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The similarity suggests a connection with Obito. That's the point - that this is a clue, not a smoking gun. Tobi's warping ability is one of the few clues we have about his identity. And it does point to Obito. If it points to someone else as well, then let's hear it.
I already said it could point to the MS. If the MS has all the same abilities across all the Uchiha, then it wouldn't matter if the eyes in Tobi's head were Obito's, Madara's, Shisui's, Fugaku's, etc.

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I have already hypothesized that.
Where? Your last post in this thread briefly mentioned Zetsu as being relevant, but you did not argue that Zetsu created Tobi from Obito.

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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
If we waited until we knew everything about Zetsu, then it wouldn't be speculation at all.
Then I'm speculating that Zetsu is hundreds of years old.

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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Or maybe it's not.
Or maybe it is.

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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
It would be debunked if Minato cut off Tobi's right arm and it was shown to be a real arm (i.e. showing that Minato was responsible for Tobi having an artificial right arm). The left hand doesn't debunk anything, sorry.
What? Both of Tobi's arms are equally fake and both have been destroyed at separate times in the series (Torune recently and Minato 16 years previous), and in both instance the arm falls off with a plop and a gooey mess. Consequently, arguing about Obito's potentially missing right arm as being some sort of connection to Tobi's right arm is a bit bunkus (additionally, edo tensei revivies the entire body, not just pieces, and Zetsu's clone technique seems to make an entire body).

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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
They were related. The connection between Naruto and Nagato was established during Nagato's talk with Naruto. Jiraiya's story about Naruto was inspired by Nagato. So, thanks for pointing that out. You've just given precedence to a connection existing between Obito and Tobi.
I apologize. I meant to imply that just by comparing their names, your argument leads to the conlusion that Nagato and Naruto were the same person just as easily as Obito and Tobi. That is the connection I meant to imply, but I obviously failed.

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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
False? What does "No bearing on the current storyline" mean? Every new chapter that Kishimoto writes has a bearing on the storyline - flashbacks included.
The editorial comment was not, or at least I did not read it as, an actual question (from the author) as to the identity of the mysterious masked man, rather it reflected the tension that Minato and Kushina felt (must the same as the editorial comments in the past predicting the deaths of Naruto or Sasuke were not meant to be taken literally, but rather as comments to emphasize mood, etc).
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Old 2010-07-23, 00:12   Link #235
Hiking_Bear
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I already said it could point to the MS. If the MS has all the same abilities across all the Uchiha, then it wouldn't matter if the eyes in Tobi's head were Obito's, Madara's, Shisui's, Fugaku's, etc.
The key word there is IF. It doesn't actually point to a common time/space warping MS jutsu until there is one.



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Where? Your last post in this thread briefly mentioned Zetsu as being relevant, but you did not argue that Zetsu created Tobi from Obito.
Here and Here. And you replied to both. Did you change your mind in the interim? It's hard to believe, given the sardonicism contained in that first response.

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Then I'm speculating that Zetsu is hundreds of years old.
Maybe, but what are you basing it on? And how is it related to Tobi's identity? Get thee to the Zetsu thread.

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Or maybe it is.
This is where I say "or maybe it is" and then you'll say "or maybe it isn't" and then I'll say "Aha! I agree"

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What? Both of Tobi's arms are equally fake and both have been destroyed at separate times in the series (Torune recently and Minato 16 years previous), and in both instance the arm falls off with a plop and a gooey mess. Consequently, arguing about Obito's potentially missing right arm as being some sort of connection to Tobi's right arm is a bit bunkus (additionally, edo tensei revivies the entire body, not just pieces, and Zetsu's clone technique seems to make an entire body).
We don't know that the whole body is fake. We know only that Tobi's right arm and left hand were artificial. The other physical features we have to go by are the striations on the right side of Tobi's face and his Sharingan. The descriptors still point to Obito. We could talk about Edo Tensei as a candidate, but you know well enough that it doesn't fit with the depiction of how Tobi regenerated his arm. And Tobi being a full Zetsu clone leaves Zetsu as being responsible for a Sharingan, summoning the 9-tails, and using a time/space technique.

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I apologize. I meant to imply that just by comparing their names, your argument leads to the conlusion that Nagato and Naruto were the same person just as easily as Obito and Tobi. That is the connection I meant to imply, but I obviously failed.
My argument leads to the conclusion of a connection of the identities of Naruto and Nagato - which there was (the Gutsy ninja). No need to apologize for enhancing my argument.

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The editorial comment was not, or at least I did not read it as, an actual question (from the author) as to the identity of the mysterious masked man, rather it reflected the tension that Minato and Kushina felt (must the same as the editorial comments in the past predicting the deaths of Naruto or Sasuke were not meant to be taken literally, but rather as comments to emphasize mood, etc).
The messages or questions at the beginning and ends of the chapter are from the author directed at the audience. It's not something Kishimoto invented. It's been around since the era of movie serials or Rocky and Bullwinkle at least.
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Old 2010-07-23, 01:16   Link #236
james0246
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
The key word there is IF. It doesn't actually point to a common time/space warping MS jutsu until there is one.
Oh I know, that's why its speculation...

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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Here and Here. And you replied to both. Did you change your mind in the interim? It's hard to believe, given the sardonicism contained in that first response.
I do not remember the first post at all (and I have no idea if the deleted comment dealt with you are not), and I just barely remember the second post (looking at the link, I did not even respond to your "Zetsu created Tobi" comment, so I can see why I did not remember it), so I can't really comment on it. That being said, I do not see how my position has changed. Looking at the second post (and the various responses), my comments here have been more or less the same (in fact we are having the same conversation over again and we are just repeating myself...I wish you would have told me (since you seem to remember our 'discussions' better than I do), I would have bowed out just to save time)).


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Maybe, but what are you basing it on? And how is it related to Tobi's identity? Get thee to the Zetsu thread.
I vaguely remember the Zetsu thread...you weren't the guy who went on for pages about how weak Zetsu was (before seeing any encounter) just because he didn't fight Kakashi at the VotE?

That being said, Zetsu is a plantman of some sort, and if he is anything like Swamp Thing, then he could be immortal for all we know

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This is where I say "or maybe it is" and then you'll say "or maybe it isn't" and then I'll say "Aha! I agree"
No, this is where you put one of those disappointed smilies ( maybe, or how about , or better yet ).

That being said, I see no reason why Zetsu couldn't call Tobi "boy" solely for comedic effect. Zetsu does have a split personality after all, so it’s not like he is 100% sane.

Additionally, I've acknowledged for quite awhile (and you've even provided evidence of this by digging up an old post) that Zetsu and Tobi have a special relationship, I just don't see why Obito has to be involved (the argument I used before, which is still valid, is the ease by which Tobi replaces missing pieces).

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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
We don't know that the whole body is fake. We know only that Tobi's right arm and left hand were artificial. The other physical features we have to go by are the striations on the right side of Tobi's face and his Sharingan. The descriptors still point to Obito. We could talk about Edo Tensei as a candidate, but you know well enough that it doesn't fit with the depiction of how Tobi regenerated his arm. And Tobi being a full Zetsu clone leaves Zetsu as being responsible for a Sharingan, summoning the 9-tails, and using a time/space technique.
I never claimed the whole body was fake (I'm not even sure if fake is the correct word to use), just that he clearly has lost both appendages, which is different from Obito's known predicament.

And, once again, I do not like physical appearance arguments. I consider them to be bad writing, not because they are not logical or unfounded (they can be quite logical), but because they are too simplistic. Good character development isn't based around hair style or height, but motivation and actions. So, the similarity between an eye hole and a crushed eye reads as a red herring to me (obviously not to you).


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The questions at the beginning and ends of the chapter are messages or questions from the author directed at the audience. It's not something Kishimoto invented. It's been around since the era of movie serials or Rocky and Bullwinkle at least.
That wasn't my point at all. The endnotes/comments are meant to create a sense of tension for the next chapter, consequently their presentation is not meant to be taken literally. For instance, at the end of chapter 410 of Bleach, a shadow is seen briefly, and the text reads "Who is this shadowy figure? A new danger, or perhaps...", so while the comment emphasizes mystery, in reality, as the next chapter reveals, we already know who the shadowy stranger is; the comments in 500 (or was it 501) falls under a similar category - Kishimoto is not literally asking the audience "who is this person [after all]?" (we already know, or at least have an idea), Instead, he is emphasizing the suddenness of the appearance, and the tension of the mystery for those who face the masked shinobi (in this case, Minato and Kushina).

That being said, considering that most of the comments to be made have been made months ago (sorry I forgot about you), I'm going to stop discussing for now. When some new info is revealed, I'll be more than happy to continue the discussion (it's been fun, and ever since Killer Bee developed a life, I've been left bored without adequate long discussions ).
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Old 2010-07-23, 04:13   Link #237
yakumo-chan
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james0246 vs. Hiking_Bear

hehe... tobi's identity debate really is fun eh?? but Im rooting for Hiking_Bear hehe....

I do think that tobi is someone else..... its because of the Mask...
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Old 2010-07-23, 14:39   Link #238
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Lol. I probably shouldn't have posted my troll Izuna theory. Look what's it done.
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Old 2010-07-23, 21:00   Link #239
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Oh I know, that's why its speculation...
I'm basing my speculation of a Tobi-Obito connection off of the similarity of Kamui to Tobi's space/time tech. Yours is a speculation based on nothing, or rather a speculation based on another speculation.

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I do not remember the first post at all (and I have no idea if the deleted comment dealt with you are not), and I just barely remember the second post (looking at the link, I did not even respond to your "Zetsu created Tobi" comment, so I can see why I did not remember it), so I can't really comment on it.
backpedaling 101

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That being said, I do not see how my position has changed. Looking at the second post (and the various responses), my comments here have been more or less the same (in fact we are having the same conversation over again and we are just repeating myself...I wish you would have told me (since you seem to remember our 'discussions' better than I do), I would have bowed out just to save time)).
It's not that I remember our discussions. It's that I know how to use the search button.

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I vaguely remember the Zetsu thread...you weren't the guy who went on for pages about how weak Zetsu was (before seeing any encounter) just because he didn't fight Kakashi at the VotE?
I wasn't

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No, this is where you put one of those disappointed smilies ( maybe, or how about , or better yet ).
Nah. I gave the rolleyes smiley the day off. Poor guy. He read your posts and his eyes got stuck in that position.

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I never claimed the whole body was fake (I'm not even sure if fake is the correct word to use), just that he clearly has lost both appendages, which is different from Obito's known predicament.
Someone missing appendages and having a Sharingan is closer to Obito's predicament than anyone else.

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And, once again, I do not like physical appearance arguments. I consider them to be bad writing, not because they are not logical or unfounded (they can be quite logical), but because they are too simplistic. Good character development isn't based around hair style or height, but motivation and actions.
First, that's a hard argument to make considering that this is an illustrated series and the majority of the manga's content is in physical appearances. And for the comment about good character development not being based on physical appearance - what does that mean? To me that sounds like a blanket statement that could either be true or false depending on the context. I'm trying to think of examples. If we take Sasori as an example, then his appearance is important to understanding his character. He turned himself into a never-aging puppet and it speaks to his appreciation of puppetry as the highest form of art. To me, that was good character development. There are undoubtedly other examples, some good, some bad, but maybe you need to think through it a little more because it seems like an incomplete thought.

Secondly, how can it be more simplistic than guy-who-says-he's-Madara = Madara? That's as dumbed down as it gets.

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That wasn't my point at all. The endnotes/comments are meant to create a sense of tension for the next chapter, consequently their presentation is not meant to be taken literally. For instance, at the end of chapter 410 of Bleach, a shadow is seen briefly, and the text reads "Who is this shadowy figure? A new danger, or perhaps...", so while the comment emphasizes mystery, in reality, as the next chapter reveals, we already know who the shadowy stranger is; the comments in 500 (or was it 501) falls under a similar category - Kishimoto is not literally asking the audience "who is this person [after all]?" (we already know, or at least have an idea), Instead, he is emphasizing the suddenness of the appearance, and the tension of the mystery for those who face the masked shinobi (in this case, Minato and Kushina).
When Kishimoto asks the audience 'Who is this masked man?', he really is asking us the question, because he's never unmasked Tobi and so the audience doesn't know. In your Bleach example, the audience really doesn't know the identity of the 'shadowy figure' when the question is posed. I shouldn't need to explain this because it's a well-known device. It's called a cliffhanger. It leaves the audience in suspense of what is going to happen next.

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That being said, considering that most of the comments to be made have been made months ago (sorry I forgot about you)
Understandable. I don't spend nearly as much time on the forum as you do, so I'm not quite as visible.

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ever since Killer Bee developed a life, I've been left bored without adequate long discussions ).
So, KB developed a life, but it seems the other person wasn't so lucky.
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Old 2010-07-23, 21:38   Link #240
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Lol. I probably shouldn't have posted my troll Izuna theory. Look what's it done.
I think the Izuna theory got posted back in march or something. You can search the thread.

QUESTION TO ALL: Who was in Kabuto's coffin?
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