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Old 2010-07-23, 09:25   Link #2261
Moczo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Haha, yeah requiring blood sure does suck. But she wasn't exactly a good guy in her previous life, so it's like compensation.
Plus she's using her blood to call up a Pegasus, so it actually does hint at her true identity if you know your Greek mythology. It just also sort of looks really, really uncomfortable.

Actually, concerning Rider... I know how Bellerophon (or at least the Pegasus part of it) and her Mystic Eyes connect to her legend, but what about Bloodfort Andromeda? Other than the name, does anyone know what connection that has to Rider's identity, if any?

Pageclaim for Noble Phantasm confusion!

Last edited by Moczo; 2010-07-23 at 09:47. Reason: Adding quote so it's obvious who I'm talking to.
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Old 2010-07-23, 10:06   Link #2262
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Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
Actually, concerning Rider... I know how Bellerophon (or at least the Pegasus part of it) and her Mystic Eyes connect to her legend, but what about Bloodfort Andromeda? Other than the name, does anyone know what connection that has to Rider's identity, if any?
It's kind of a reach, but some bits from Wikipedia about Andromeda that could assist in some way:
Quote:
Andromeda is a constellation in the northern sky. It is named after Andromeda, the princess in the Greek legend of Perseus who was chained to a rock to be eaten by sea monster Cetus.
This is important because of who Perseus is:
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In Greek mythology Medusa... was beheaded by the hero Perseus, who thereafter used her head as a weapon until he gave it to the goddess Athena to place on her shield.
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According to Ovid, in North-West Africa Perseus flew past the Titan Atlas, who stood holding the sky aloft, and transformed him into stone. In a similar manner, the corals of the Red Sea were said to have been formed of Medusa's blood spilled onto seaweed when Perseus laid down the petrifying head beside the shore during his short stay in Aethiopia where he saved and wed his future wife, the lovely princess Andromeda.
Also a neat note about the Andromeda constellation:
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α And (Alpheratz / Sirrah) is the brightest star in this constellation. It is a binary star with an overall apparent visual magnitude of 2.06m. This star forms an asterism known as the "Great Square of Pegasus" with three stars in Pegasus: α, β, and γ Peg. As such, the star was formerly considered to belong to both Andromeda and Pegasus, and was co-designated as "Delta Pegasi (δ Peg)", although this name is no longer formally used.
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Old 2010-07-23, 10:20   Link #2263
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That is awesome. They really did their homework when they came up with the servant's names and attacks. I didn't realize she was Medusa until she used her mystic eyes. I always picture Medusa with snakes on her head.
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Old 2010-07-23, 10:21   Link #2264
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I knew about Andromeda and Perseus, (Though I did not know about that Perseus/Pegasus constellation thing, which is kind of a neat little touch), though I never really thought it was a good reference. Sure Andromeda and Medusa were both in the Perseus legend, but the only time they ever 'met' was when Andromeda happened to be somewhat nearby Medusa's severed head. Still, I can understand why the Bloodfort Andromeda was named that.

What I don't get is the significance of the ability itself. Was there any legend that Medusa slowly killed those in a proximity around herself just by being there? It might be justified by her releasing a poison or something just by moving around, but if so I don't recall it.

Of course, I might be thinking too much into it. It's not like Medea was well-known for her magical contract-breaking knife; it's just that betrayal was a major theme of her story (She betrayed her father for Jason, Jason betrayed her for another woman, etc., etc.). Maybe Bloodfort is a similar thing, symbolizing solitude and death or something to that effect.

Last edited by Moczo; 2010-07-23 at 10:52.
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Old 2010-07-23, 11:19   Link #2265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
That is awesome. They really did their homework when they came up with the servant's names and attacks. I didn't realize she was Medusa until she used her mystic eyes. I always picture Medusa with snakes on her head.
Medusa was an incredibly... no, unbelievably beautiful nymph. Poseidon wanted to get in on with her, she said no (not surprising is the fact they were related), and as repercussion, Medusa and her sisters were turned into the hideous Gorgons. It's why her hair was turned into snakes. That's why they made her appear so beautiful.
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Old 2010-07-23, 12:50   Link #2266
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Well, Rider has risen a couple notches in my book. She fits Sakura very well too.
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Old 2010-07-23, 12:53   Link #2267
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It's rather obvious she drew her on personality. Come to think of it, the Makiri, like the Tosaka, are pretty much dirt poor now because they kept losing in the Heaven's Feel.

Still have to admit, Kariya got a much better servant with his personality.
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Old 2010-07-23, 13:01   Link #2268
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What do you mean drew on her personality? I'm talking about what Sakura and Medusa have in common. Like how Archer fits Rin because he is Shirou.
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Old 2010-07-23, 14:29   Link #2269
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If no catalyst is used during the summoning, a servant will be drawn using the summoner's personality. It allowed Uuryu to summon Gilles de Rais, as both found incredible pleasure in murdering/torturing people in as many ways as possible. Kariya drew Lancelot, as he was willing to sacrifice everything (and sell his soul to the devil, metaphorically) in order to save the one person whom he cared about more than anyone, which was Sakura, without any regard of what it would do to him. Medusa and Sakura both wanted things to go back to the way they were when things were better, which is why Sakura drew forth Medusa.

All the other servants (save Fake Assassin) were drawn with a catalyst.

Saber was the scabbard, Emiya was the necklace which he carried with him his entire life, Lancer was the Fraggract (I don't care that its spelled wrong, you all know what I mean), Caster is unknown but makes mention that she and her original master never saw eye to eye, Heracles was a slab of one of the temples erected for him. In f/Z, Diarmuid was an unknown item, as its not revealed, but definitely not personality; Iskander is his cloak, Gilgamesh by the fossilized remains of the first snake skin that was shed (and that's where the rest of the Tosaka fortune went); Hassan-i Sabbah is not mentioned, but definitely not like Kirei.
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Old 2010-07-23, 15:52   Link #2270
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No, no. I am talking about the writer's decision. When they sat down to come up with a servant for each character. Not the story mechanics of how they were selected.
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Old 2010-07-23, 16:31   Link #2271
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It's rather obvious she drew her on personality. Come to think of it, the Makiri, like the Tosaka, are pretty much dirt poor now because they kept losing in the Heaven's Feel.
The Tohsaka family is pretty poor, yes, because they have to spend so much on jewels, but I don't think the Matou family is. In any case, I think it's more a case of them not having any liquid assets than them actually being poor, since Rin has never worked (for money) a single day in her entire life, and doesn't seem like she ever will, so I assume that they must have some kind of investments that give her a small but regular income. If she was to sell said investments (along with her house, magic books and jewels) I'd imagine she'd have quite a bit of money. It's just that doing so would leave her with no way of earning money, and since she is too busy being a magus to get a job, she needs the investments to allow her (and her descendants) to do that long-term.

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Medusa and Sakura both wanted things to go back to the way they were when things were better, which is why Sakura drew forth Medusa.
Actually, that's not the connection. The reason Sakura got Rider is because they were both nice girls who would end up turning into monsters (this comes from HA, BTW), and Rider accepted the summons in order to prevent Sakura from becoming a monster like she had (of course, she then promptly forgot this...).

Plus, of course, their personalities are very similar. They're both quiet, caring and would do absolutely anything to protect the person they care for (in Sakura's case, Shirou, and in Rider's case Sakura), even if that person doesn't want them to.

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Caster is unknown but makes mention that she and her original master never saw eye to eye
Actually, it's quite possible that she was a personality summon. After all, if you put one version of Caster under the control of another I doubt they'd get on too well either.

Having the same personality as your master is no guarentee that you'll get on (think what would happen if Gil were to summon Gil, for example...). I'm not saying that there wasn't a catalyst, but I don't see why someone would intentionally summon Medea, because she's hardly renowned for her fighting skill (even if she's pretty good in-game, in the legend she's not all that much), finding a catalyst would be difficult and she's not the sort of servant you can really trust (especially if you're intending to act like a complete dick, as her original master apparently did). Also, the guy sounds pretty amatuerish and incompetent to me, which suggests that he never found a catalyst.

Quote:
Hassan-i Sabbah is not mentioned, but definitely not like Kirei.
The Assassin class is a special case. Because Assassin is always Hassan-i-Sabbah (Fake Assassin is an exception, because he was summoned by a servant who didn't specifically want an Assassin), and because the Assassin class is one of the two classes (along with Berserker) that are summoned intentionally, anyone who summons Assassin will get Hassan, no matter what. Kirei likely got the one closest to his personality (assuming he didn't have a catalyst, which is never made clear), but because there isn't a great deal of variation between them (and there aren't that many) that could still be someone substantially different from Kirei himself.
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Old 2010-07-23, 16:55   Link #2272
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Perseus is the most broken servant; try and find a way to beat him. Yes, he could mop the floor with Gil
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Old 2010-07-23, 16:59   Link #2273
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Oh, you just know that Gilgamesh has a sword specially designed for use on people who have beheaded gorgons.
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Old 2010-07-23, 17:14   Link #2274
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are you accounting for the Herpe, Gorgon Head, Helm of Hades, Greaves of Hermes, and the Shield of Athena? In conjunction, you can't win. How do you fight someone who can reflect anything, turn invisible, and turn you to stone, not to mention fly, and has the Herpe...
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Old 2010-07-23, 17:34   Link #2275
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The Original Stealth Bomber and carpet bomb his Master. That's how. And yes, he DOES have something akin to that. He is truly OP. Alternatively, he could just use Ea for once. He'd certainly take someone like Perseus seriously.
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Old 2010-07-23, 17:36   Link #2276
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are you accounting for the Herpe, Gorgon Head, Helm of Hades, Greaves of Hermes, and the Shield of Athena? In conjunction, you can't win. How do you fight someone who can reflect anything, turn invisible, and turn you to stone, not to mention fly, and has the Herpe...
A gar protagonist who can make weapons out of nothing!!
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Old 2010-07-23, 17:37   Link #2277
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are you accounting for the Herpe, Gorgon Head, Helm of Hades, Greaves of Hermes, and the Shield of Athena? In conjunction, you can't win. How do you fight someone who can reflect anything, turn invisible, and turn you to stone, not to mention fly, and has the Herpe...
He might not get to use all of those, remember. The Greek Gods definitely do exist in the Nasuverse, and the Helm, Greaves, and Shield were loaned to Perseus for one mission from the respective gods who actually owned them, after which he gave them back. Heroic Spirit Perseus might not have them all as Noble Phantasms since other, more powerful beings have stronger claim to them.

As for Medusa, well... her eyes don't work all that well on Servants when they're attached to the Gorgon in question. I can't imagine that the severed head works better than the actual Medusa.

This is not to say he wouldn't be an outstanding Servant... he is a Demigod, Medusa's eyes do weaken other Servants at least, and Herpe is definitely an exceptional weapon. He'd be a Hell of a competitor, but I don't know if he'd be an instant win card without knowing for sure which, if any, of those other three items he actually got to use as Noble Phantasms.
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Old 2010-07-23, 17:48   Link #2278
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few servants are capable of flight, and being invisible (helm of hades) with the herpe, he can come up behind any servant or master and decapitate them.
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Old 2010-07-23, 17:56   Link #2279
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Actually, Rider compared Perseus to a Shinji who succeed. In short an utterly selfish person with large ego but his brags have a real base at least.

And Caster/Medea's original master was quite skilled. He could restrict Medea's magic power(out of jealusy that his Servant is better in magic than him). Before we say he used a Command Spell, we must remember Archer's comment on long-lasting Command Spells. They tend to have quite weak effects, especially if they have long, undefined and uncertain durations. Medea's master used his own magic to restrict Medea's spells. It's a whole other thing that he was somewhat naive and weak against seduction.
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Old 2010-07-23, 18:03   Link #2280
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few servants are capable of flight, and being invisible (helm of hades) with the herpe, he can come up behind any servant or master and decapitate them.
Yes, but my entire point was that he might not be flying or invisible, because it's entirely possible that Heroic Spirit Perseus might not have Hermes's sandals, Athena's shield, or Hades's helmet as Noble Phantasms. They aren't his, they belong to the gods and he explicitly gave them back after killing Medusa and rescuing Andromeda, before going on to become king of Mycenae. And he gave Medusa's head to Athena, even, so it's possible that Herpe might be his only Noble Phantasm since it was the only one he kept for his entire career.
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