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Old 2010-07-24, 15:21   Link #3541
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zRyuu View Post
Haha, sorry I just wrote a random number I'll edit that. If we trust the anime, then there was at least more than 4 being kept there.
If I remember correctly, in the game, the captain opened a bed store after retiring from ferry work (after Rokkenjima blew up, I doubt there were many people around who needed ferrying). And apparently Sakutaro makes an excellent pillow, so he was selling them.
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Old 2010-07-24, 15:42   Link #3542
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
So basically it's exactly like chronotrig's theory then. You'll have to excuse me then for my lack of support for that narrative.
Um, what? It's a theory about game board and truth construction, not about the motive for the murders. It's not a Shkannon theory and I haven't even accused a culprit. So... What are you talking about?

...I really have to hand it to Ryukishi. Poisoning the theory well with the DID/personality death thing was a masterstroke.
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Old 2010-07-24, 15:59   Link #3543
Judoh
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Chronotrig has been repeating over and over that 'the gold truth is a lie that everyone believes in'. Forgive me if that interpretation isn't exactly what he means, as he may have done a bad job at explaining it, but it comes down to that in summary. He uses the some of the same scenes as hints for that conclusion as you.

And I'll make this point very direct. I think it's stupid to use scenes from question arcs and their tea parties to figure out how the golden truth works when it's been said we should look at the situation it's used in to figure out. I honestly don't think the golden truth is supposed to be a deep complicated thing and since there aren't hints for how the blue and red work I doubt that the Golden truth is any different. I think people are on a wild goose chase when they feel like they have to have a bunch of hints scattered about through out the games to figure out the golden truth's use and it's construction.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-24 at 16:10.
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Old 2010-07-24, 16:36   Link #3544
k//eternal
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I thought the gold was something that couldn't be disproven given the parameters of the board, which is why if you understand the board completely you know what can be said in gold and what can't.

The idea that the gold truth is a lie accepted by everyone... maybe I'm taking it out of context and misunderstanding, but pretty much nobody was there when Beato talked about her magic with the gold (and would "everyone" have accepted it?). A variant rule like "it's believed by everyone who's present when it's said" is too complicated, sort of pointless, and I don't think something like that could compete with the red and be accepted as it was in EP5.

Something like "it's impossible to disprove" is in ways comparable to absolute truth, which would explain how it was used in EP5. It's also a very simple rule, which would be in line with the other color texts.
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Old 2010-07-24, 17:35   Link #3545
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Chronotrig has been repeating over and over that 'the gold truth is a lie that everyone believes in'. Forgive me if that interpretation isn't exactly what he means, as he may have done a bad job at explaining it, but it comes down to that in summary. He uses the some of the same scenes as hints for that conclusion as you.
Umm...
Quote:
I didn't say it had to be a lie, right? Just that a lie can be part of a gold truth. EP6 proves this.
In other words, I'm suggesting that the gold truth is "a truth" that everyone believes in. In other words, a conclusion drawn from their assumptions (the blue) and the facts (the red). If the assumptions are wrong or a lie has been falsely accepted as a fact, then it's possible for lies to be included in the gold truth.

And the logic for this is very simple. It's easy to link the red text to Lambda and the blue text to Bern. If the rock-paper-scissors analogy is relevant, then it's likely that the gold text represents Beato's truth. What is Beato's truth? Magic. What is magic? Any process that is accepted as true, regardless of whether it was true or not. EP6 is very explicit about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
And I'll make this point very direct. I think it's stupid to use scenes from question arcs and their tea parties to figure out how the golden truth works when it's been said we should look at the situation it's used in to figure out.
Think about it. Would Ryuukishi have included the gold truth at such a key point if it didn't hold some essential clue to the nature of the game? And didn't he say that at least most of the game was solvable before the core arcs? So there must be some way to figure out the basic principle behind the gold truth using just the question arcs.
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Old 2010-07-24, 17:42   Link #3546
UsagiTenpura
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Think I found a way out of arc 6 without relying on Shkanon.
I was thinking that Erika never mentioned herself, so by default she should also fall into the group "everyone else". The sequence of given red is this.
-Victims exists in their specific places
-Five specific people exists in the next room over
-Everyone else (so normally also Erika) exists in the cousin's room
-Both rooms are sealed

Far later on we are told
-When the next room over was sealed only the specific five people existed within it

But we are never told that about the cousin's room, and erika herself got out of it.
So a simple solution would be something like:
After Erika left the cousin's room she began to seal the doors of both rooms, and then the windows. We know she sealed the windows from outside since she mentions it herself. During the time it took do seal them Kanon left the room by the window. Everyone else could also have left the room during that time.
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Old 2010-07-24, 17:56   Link #3547
k//eternal
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Okay. So here we go again with "the test":

1. There are 17 people with Erika included.
2. Regarding Battler's guest room, three bodies passed through. They belong to people who legitimately have the names Erika (or maybe "you"), Battler, or Kanon.

How did both of these happen?
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Old 2010-07-24, 18:12   Link #3548
zRyuu
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Erika can be considered a personality or title or however you want to call it placed in one of the characters.
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Old 2010-07-24, 18:20   Link #3549
UsagiTenpura
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If Shkannon isn't real my understanding goes something like that.
18 "human counter" refers to Human Pieces.
17 "humans" = 17 real people with each a real body.

So it's something like
17 Real people with real bodies
1 Illusion of a human (Erika)
1 Illusion of a witch (Beatrice)
1 Specifically excluded Kinzo from game 6, even as an illusion he doesn't have a single line in the game.

"I'm Erika, the 18th human piece"
"Maybe but there's only 17 real humans"

Basically Erika is the same as Beatrice, she's an alternate personality of someone, an illusion.
The difference seems to be that everyone believes in her existence right from the start.
At least in arc 6, it's not like anyone's POV is known to be objective.

Erika just has to be anyone beside Kanon who was orriginally in the cousin's room.
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Old 2010-07-24, 18:58   Link #3550
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The problem is that from 1998, we know there's a real person called Erika Furudo, who became lost after the typhoon while she was in the cruiser. So, I doubt there can be a person with Erika as her personality, whilst there's a real Erika Furudo. That's just too big of a coincidence.

Well, we have no idea at all what kind of person the real Furudo Erika may have been. So, someone could make a case that there was no Furudo Erika at all, but just that personality (as in behaviour). However, we've got Reds for Erika.

In my opinion, if we follow the multiple truths deal, then in EP5 and EP6 Erika did exist in the island. After all, in 1998, there are several theories about her arriving in the island. This may not be entirely incorrect, if her corpse did arrive, so to say. Now, back to the Red Truths, because of these multiple truths, Erika could say she was the 18th guest and exist in EPs 5&6. However, the Red used by Battler and Beato was a Red that pertained to the story as a whole, and not one particular episode, which says even if they welcome Erika, the number of people in the island in 17. This general truth overrides the episodic rule, and thus killed Erika - well, along with the fact she was already going to die, since losing the previous duel meant her existence got denied.
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Old 2010-07-24, 19:01   Link #3551
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
The problem is that from 1998, we know there's a real person called Erika Furudo, who became lost after the typhoon while she was in the cruiser. So, I doubt there can be a person with Erika as her personality, whilst there's a real Erika Furudo. That's just too big of a coincidence.
An "Erika mask" theory would not require that the person referred to as "Erika" is acting as "Furudo Erika," calls him or herself "Erika," or indeed has anything whatsoever to do with being "Erika" other than having certain labeled appellations overlaid on them in the meta-level where the "real" Erika is present.

I'm not sure where that misinformation comes from. No one would have to be pretending to be Erika, or know they're being called Erika; the existence of a real person named Furudo Erika or not is irrelevant to that particular iteration of the theory.
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Old 2010-07-24, 19:03   Link #3552
UsagiTenpura
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1998 is only a problem if you believe it's the truth.
Anyway Erika is such a fake name (written in Katakana).
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Old 2010-07-24, 19:08   Link #3553
k//eternal
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Great. So next, who is it, and where are the signs that they have a detective alter ego?
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Old 2010-07-24, 19:09   Link #3554
Judoh
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I think Beatrice writes her name in Katakana too doesn't she? I seem to recall Battler making fun of her by saying it'd be cooler if she wrote her name in cursive (english I think).
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Old 2010-07-24, 19:16   Link #3555
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Great. So next, who is it, and where are the signs that they have a detective alter ego?
Again, no one is required to have a "detective alter ego." I mean that's still a possibility, but not all versions of that require it.

Intriguingly, the Erika candidate with the least contradictions would be Shannon.
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Old 2010-07-24, 19:21   Link #3556
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Intriguingly, the Erika candidate with the least contradictions would be Shannon.
Least contradictions with the red you mean.

I actually think Jessica would be a good candidate. The only thing standing in the way is that Erika seems to hate Jessica's guts, but hasn't there been a time for everyone where you've hated yourself at least a little bit?
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Old 2010-07-24, 19:25   Link #3557
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Least contradictions with the red you mean.

I actually think Jessica would be a good candidate. The only thing standing in the way is that Erika seems to hate Jessica's guts, but hasn't there been a time for everyone where you've hated yourself?
That's a good starting point, but if it's the truth, there should be some stronger evidence pointing towards Jessica and Jessica alone. Like Shkanon, a theory starts when show that there is some evidence pointing towards it, but it doesn't end until you've explained everything with it. It doesn't have to explain every part of the game, but it should explain most of it and expose clues that point towards it.

I'm not saying it's a bad start, just that it's only a start so far.
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Old 2010-07-24, 19:32   Link #3558
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Yeah I'm a bit curious how Jessica might work. She'd have difficulties in ep5, though she's not referenced in any ep6 reds at all (other than incidentally as "all other people") isn't she?
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Old 2010-07-24, 19:59   Link #3559
UsagiTenpura
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Well Arc 5 made it sorta explicit Erika = What Krauss and Natsuhi wished Jessica would've been.
If we think of Erika as the "opposite of Jessie" within Jessica, meaning her as her parents want her to be, it seems okay to accept to me.
Interesting point - they both don't care about money.

Actually what if we see this sequence of events.
Jessica/Erika is born from Kanon's rejection of Jessica.
The scenes shown to us about Kanon showing his feelings to Jessica and telling her his real name are "flash fowards". They really happened when Kanon went to "save Battler". Because he said his real name to Jessica he stopped existing as furniture/Kanon.

Actually I see many sequences being likely out of chronological sense. Kyrie's speech seems to make only sense to me if we replace "18 years" by "12 years" and that it occured six years ago.
I was thinking about the "two couples, only one can succeed" and I was trying to find an equivalent in Umineko outside of the servants/cousins' relations.
Beatrice, whoever she is, ultimately her relation with Battler was destroyed before it began. That's in a very broad sense Kyrie's fault. Kyrie x Rudolph, 6 years ago, happened at the cost of Beatrice x Battler. If Kyrie had died, and not Asumu, the real miracle would've been that Battler wouldn't have left Rokkenjima, and remain with whoever is Beatrice.

Edit : If I accept that Erika has to be include within "everyone else" then "who she could be" becomes very limited. It also cannot be Kanon since Erika and him makes two seperate bodies.
Krauss... Rudolph... Genji... Gohda...
I'd rather bet on Jessica...
I know it's bad logic to claim it's Jessica by contra positive, but I really don't see who else it could be in this situation.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2010-07-24 at 21:30.
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Old 2010-07-24, 22:15   Link #3560
k//eternal
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Well, it's true that Erika also wears Jessica's old clothes. It's possible for her to be a similar existence to Eva-B within Jessica as a result. It might also make some sense for everyone to listen to her in EP5 if she's Jessica, too. Much more so than if it was Shannon, anyway.
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