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Old 2010-07-28, 04:54   Link #7021
Mentar
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I think it's the other way round: Hata could afford to lift Athena up so much, way beyond what the other girls succeeded in, BECAUSE he always knew - in advance - that he'd take Athena out of the story afterwards, at least for the time being. And he added the "or I'll return to claim him" twist to throw a bone to the A-tan faction.

If she were to return, he'd either have to go for an ending soon, or he'd have to reduce Athena to the level of the other girls (which would certainly not please the A-tan fans). So I doubt that we'll see her anytime soon.
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Old 2010-07-28, 05:29   Link #7022
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I think it's the other way round: Hata could afford to lift Athena up so much, way beyond what the other girls succeeded in, BECAUSE he always knew - in advance - that he'd take Athena out of the story afterwards, at least for the time being. And he added the "or I'll return to claim him" twist to throw a bone to the A-tan faction.

If she were to return, he'd either have to go for an ending soon, or he'd have to reduce Athena to the level of the other girls (which would certainly not please the A-tan fans). So I doubt that we'll see her anytime soon.
I agree. Athena was created with a particular story in mind, and now that's she's served her purpose, she doesn't have any real place in the story. When she does return, I imagine it'll be to kick off another serious arc or even the end of the manga.

I really don't expect her to show up anytime soon and be reduced to another girl chasing Hayate around in the background. It would end up being banal and out of character for her, I think.

On a different note, I find it very interesting that Ayumu's birthday story ended up focusing more on her relationship with Nagi then with Hayate. I know they bonded pretty strongly over Golden Week but it was nice to see that affirmation (Nagi-chan dai suki! *glomp*) It goes both ways of course--Nagi was the one who wanted to do something special for the Hamster to begin with. I'd love to see Ayumu become a tenant somehow.

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When you have characters like Hina and Ayumu who have had a lot of romantic development for the entire manga, or like Athena who have been introduced almost purely for that purpose, you can say there's also other side to this manga.
I don't know that I'd say they've had a lot of romantic development. Hina especially has felt like she's just been spinning in circles for ages now. She had a lot of internal anguish during Golden Week, but it was all very self contained. Her biggest moments during the arc kept going back to the theme of self-sacrifice--Sacrificing her "weak" image (In her mind anyway) to win the Volleyball game, telling Hayate to go to Athena instead of confessing herself, and going to help Hayate save Athena despite her massive jealousy. It never came back around to her getting any kind of serious attention from Hayate.

I'm not sure what to expect from Hina anymore. She's still got that confession card, but it's quickly becoming more of an emotional burden then her secret weapon. Her confession early in the series could have been very powerful (Which is probably why it didn't happen) but unless something changes it's going to be more about Hina letting go then anything else.

Ayumu's story is all about love, empathy, and friendship, and I adore her for that. She's got the opposite problem from Hina, where she's been completely straightforward and awesome with Hayate but as she says herself states a number of times "He still won't look at her."

Hmmm...When you consider that Ayumu and Hina were introduced at roughly the same time in the manga, it's probably not a coincidence that their personalities and problems are almost completely opposite. Those two were always meant to be a pair, I think. (I don't mean that as a couple, just that their stories were meant to be intertwined from the start.)

Last edited by madmac; 2010-07-28 at 05:53.
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Old 2010-07-28, 05:56   Link #7023
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Hayate fooled her the hard way by asking her when is her birthday, pretending that he doesn't know, right?

That worked, but does he explain in the end, or does Ayumu assume it was all Nagi's doing? That she remembered it and called everyone together?

Remember, she was against it at first.

Still, where the heck is Chiharu? -___-

Tch....
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Old 2010-07-28, 06:03   Link #7024
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Remember, she was against it at first.
Nagi you mean? She wasn't against it. Nagi was the one who implied they should do something special for Ayumu's birthday, it just took Chiharu to call her out when she tried to shy away from the surprise party because she thought it was embarrassing and was afraid Ayumu wouldn't like it. This is exactly why Chiharu is awesome.

I'm not bothered by her not going to the party though. She'd never even met Ayumu and would have just felt like a hanger-on when everyone else there were close friends.

(Can't answer the rest of your post, my Japanese isn't good enough.)
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Old 2010-07-28, 06:09   Link #7025
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Precisely why she should have went. They could have meet, and became friends, but I guess that Hata has something else in store for them. Well, they'll eventually meet, since Chiharu now lives in the same house as Hayate and Nagi.

Ayumu is bound to visit them sometime...

Anyway, Nagi did sort of protest against it. She thought it was troublesome, and without Chiharu's motivation, she'd never go along with it. She'd just say that it can't be helped, or deliver a gift by proxy.

At least that's how I picture it....

@BigMac™

Well, by the looks of it, Hayate didn't have enough time to say that much. This manga has a lot of misunderstandings, so it might be possible that Ayumu assumed that Nagi was the one who made it up, while it was Hayate in the first place who remembered her birthday, etc...

Maybe we'll get the answer in the next chapter, or newer ones.

This week's picture on Hata's blog is Yukariko (I think).

It might be someone else. I'm kinda forgetful and I certainly don't remember all the characters, so go ahead and state your own opinion.

http://websunday.net/backstage/hata/

Perhaps the Luca arc is going to start soon...?

Guess that's it for the birthday, huh?

:/
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Old 2010-07-28, 06:14   Link #7026
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Anyway, Nagi did sort of protest against it. She thought it was troublesome, and without Chiharu's motivation, she'd never go along with it. She'd just say that it can't be helped, or deliver a gift by proxy.

At least that's how I picture it....
Well yeah, but that's just Nagi being shy/tsundere. What she says is rarely what she means.

Which is why it's funny that Chiharu already has her number and doesn't put up with her crap.

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Well, by the looks of it, Hayate didn't have enough time to say that much. This manga has a lot of misunderstandings, so it might be possible that Ayumu assumed that Nagi was the one who made it up, while it was Hayate in the first place who remembered her birthday, etc...
We'll see when the translation comes out, I suppose. Although you did have Hina telling Nagi that's it was "wonderful" for her to plan to whole thing last chapter, so I think that was the official story anyway.

Ok, I went back and looked at it. All Hayate does is wish her a Happy Birthday and then Nagi tells her it's a surprise party.

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This week's picture on Hata's blog is Yukariko (I think).
Looks like Yukariko to me too.

Last edited by madmac; 2010-07-28 at 07:20.
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Old 2010-07-28, 09:56   Link #7027
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Originally Posted by madmac View Post
Well, I'm using the official translation here. I don't have much time to chat tonight, but the relevant lines are "But Back then, why did Ojo-sama's face come to mind? Could it be I think of Ojo-sama as...?" and "This is probably how it feels to fuss over a little sister..."

(I wouldn't call this scene romantic, exactly, just interesting.)

In any event, I'm tired so I'm skipping this for now.
I don't know man, I've read that line in Japanese, fan translation and official translation and I don't find it particularly interesting. Perhaps, had I read it back in the day, I would have thought it was interesting. But, at this point, I really cannot. But well, who knows?

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Well, again, you're thinking of these romantic subplots as being something separate from the main story, while I consider them fairly typical romantic rival/drama stuff. (Typical in concept, anyway. As always this manga excels in the execution and characterization, which is why I love it so much.) And I do love my cheesy romance, don't get me wrong.
Hmm... it's not as if I'm considering the romance to be a completely plot apart. You have one story as a whole, but the parts which focus on Hayate being Nagi's butler and the romance parts are not always the same or even connected.

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I don't know that I'd say they've had a lot of romantic development. Hina especially has felt like she's just been spinning in circles for ages now. She had a lot of internal anguish during Golden Week, but it was all very self contained. Her biggest moments during the arc kept going back to the theme of self-sacrifice--Sacrificing her "weak" image (In her mind anyway) to win the Volleyball game, telling Hayate to go to Athena instead of confessing herself, and going to help Hayate save Athena despite her massive jealousy. It never came back around to her getting any kind of serious attention from Hayate.
Sure, in terms on how they have advanced, there hasn't been much. I guess I should rephrase what I said. What I mean with romantic development, was romantic focus. Hina and Ayumu have had a considerable amount of it. In fact, most of the time they get some focus, you can be sure some sort of romantic subplot will take place.
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Old 2010-07-28, 10:22   Link #7028
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I don't know man, I've read that line in Japanese, fan translation and official translation and I don't find it particularly interesting. Perhaps, had I read it back in the day, I would have thought it was interesting. But, at this point, I really cannot. But well, who knows?
*shrug* It's far from being the best example I could have used, just something that came to mind quickly. I'm certainly not going to debate it to death.

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Hmm... it's not as if I'm considering the romance to be a completely plot apart. You have one story as a whole, but the parts which focus on Hayate being Nagi's butler and the romance parts are not always the same or even connected.
I guess I just don't see the divide between "Butler time" and "Romance time". Frequently, they overlap. Not always, though, I'll give you that much, and naturally there's less butler focus when Hayate is interacting with characters he isn't butlering for. Nagi has the most spotlight time in general, so it follows that she uses less of it for romantic subplots.

Honestly, I do understand where you're coming from. You're hardly the only person that sees the relationship between Nagi and Hayate as being fundamentally a non-romantic one.

I just can't see it the same way in a series where you have giant robots snarking that Hayate needs to quit the rom-com nonsense while he and Nagi make googlie eyes at each other or where the first volume closes by essentially saying "There's no way this 13 year girl could make this delicate relationship we're subtly contrasting to a flower work...or can she?" To say nothing of the omakes poking fun of Nagi for being so slow and not even managing to kiss her man after the first year of the manga.

Even ignoring all that, Nagi is every bit as in love with Hayate as Ayumu and Hina are, and that makes her a viable romantic interest. It's not as if Hayate has expressed strong romantic interest in anyone besides Athena at this point anyway. His feelings are still up for grabs.

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Sure, in terms on how they have advanced, there hasn't been much. I guess I should rephrase what I said. What I mean with romantic development, was romantic focus. Hina and Ayumu have had a considerable amount of it. In fact, most of the time they get some focus, you can be sure some sort of romantic subplot will take place.
Well they are the designated main rivals. It only stands to reason that they get the most romantic development aside from the heroine. The reverse cover goddess even jokingly introduces them as "Strong Rivals" that appear in volume 4, and Ayumu's own character profile mentions that she was one of the first characters created as a rival/foil to Nagi and therefore her polar opposite.

Last edited by madmac; 2010-07-28 at 10:37.
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Old 2010-07-28, 12:47   Link #7029
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Even ignoring all that, Nagi is every bit as in love with Hayate as Ayumu and Hina are, and that makes her a viable romantic interest. It's not as if Hayate has expressed strong romantic interest in anyone besides Athena at this point anyway. His feelings are still up for grabs.
I know Nagi is in love with Hayate. I haven't said she isn't. My point is she hasn't had romantic development. Nagi's development throughout the manga has been how she grows from being a borderline hikki spoiled brat, to a really nice friendly girl. Hayate, along with other characters, has been the one guiding her in this process. That's why I link it to family type development, rather than romantic development.

This is why I'm saying, if there's ever actual romantic development for Nagi, as in scenes with obvious romantic undertones like those Hina, Ayumu, Athena, and to some extent Maria have had, then I'll consider her a romantic interest.

Then again, the good thing about this, is that this is my viewpoint of things, and nothing objective at all. So, you do not need to agree.

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Well they are the designated main rivals. It only stands to reason that they get the most romantic development aside from the heroine. The reverse cover goddess even jokingly introduces them as "Strong Rivals" that appear in volume 4, and Ayumu's own character profile mentions that she was one of the first characters created as a rival/foil to Nagi and therefore her polar opposite.
I know man. Maybe, back then, Hata planned on having Nagi on romantic situations, but he decided to do things differently, because, as of now, she's had none - at least nothing you can objectively says it has downright romantic undertones to it, instead of something that may be based completely on the subjectivity of the reader.
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Old 2010-07-28, 13:04   Link #7030
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Well, fair enough. Obviously I see a lot more romantic development between them then you do, but it's not worth squabbling about. I still think it mostly comes down to expectations. I see a slow build up of trust and affection that will (probably) eventually blossom into something more, but obviously Hayate isn't just going to up and decide he really wants to make out with a 13 year old. Heck, even Maria jokes about that being a very bad thing, and she's a Nagi supporter all the way.

And that doesn't stop them from hitting all the romantic comedy cliches. Nagi has kissed Hayate twice, had Hayate walk in on her naked twice, ect. They get tossed into these sorts of situations all the time, no matter how much Hayate insists he's totally not a lolicon.

Alternately, to reuse an old joke of mine, nobody likes their little sister THAT much.

Last edited by madmac; 2010-07-28 at 13:15.
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Old 2010-07-28, 13:32   Link #7031
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I know man. Maybe, back then, Hata planned on having Nagi on romantic situations, but he decided to do things differently, because, as of now, she's had none - at least nothing you can objectively says it has downright romantic undertones to it, instead of something that may be based completely on the subjectivity of the reader.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. Many of the 'butler' situations are now gaining a romantic lean to them. With Nagi's breaking of the stone of inheritance, she seems to be gaining status on the 'mature'/older women Hayate once said he preferred as romantic interests, and thus he's taking a different look at her. Maybe that scene when he thought of her all those chapters ago was a hint that this was going to happen.
It does help that Hayate is less her butler now, because she doesn't have the huge amount of money she used to, and thus his dedication to her because she paid off his debt is the biggest reason he stays with her now.

I don't expect anything serious to happen between them until at least December, when she is able to claim another year under her belt, and a whole year spent with Hayate. Theirs seems like a relationship that is built over time rather than the love-at-first-sight style the other girls have.
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Old 2010-07-28, 13:38   Link #7032
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I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. Many of the 'butler' situations are now gaining a romantic lean to them. With Nagi's breaking of the stone of inheritance, she seems to be gaining status on the 'mature'/older women Hayate once said he preferred as romantic interests, and thus he's taking a different look at her. Maybe that scene when he thought of her all those chapters ago was a hint that this was going to happen.
It does help that Hayate is less her butler now, because she doesn't have the huge amount of money she used to, and thus his dedication to her because she paid off his debt is the biggest reason he stays with her now.
That's what I've been saying. Maybe, in the future, Hata will add romantic development. However, so far, nothing clearly romantic has been had between Nagi and Hayate.

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Theirs seems like a relationship that is built over time rather than the love-at-first-sight style the other girls have.
That's a big fat lie dude. Nagi fell in love with Hayate as fast as any of the other girls - Hina being the slowest in realising what her feelings toward Hayate really were. Hayate may be a different issue, regarding his feelings. But, no matter who he ends up with, it won't be due to love-at-first-sight.
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Old 2010-07-28, 13:45   Link #7033
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I don't expect anything serious to happen between them until at least December, when she is able to claim another year under her belt, and a whole year spent with Hayate. Theirs seems like a relationship that is built over time rather than the love-at-first-sight style the other girls have.
That's been my assumption for a while, too. So many promises made already for Nov/Dec and 13 to 14 is a big jump, at least by anime/manga standards.

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That's what I've been saying. Maybe, in the future, Hata will add romantic development. However, so far, nothing clearly romantic has been had between Nagi and Hayate.
I'm beginning to suspect we just have an entirely different definition of "romantic development." Actually, "ship teasing" may be a better description for a lot of things that happen in this series.

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Old 2010-07-28, 14:01   Link #7034
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That's a big fat lie dude. Nagi fell in love with Hayate as fast as any of the other girls - Hina being the slowest in realising what her feelings toward Hayate really were. Hayate may be a different issue, regarding his feelings. But, no matter who he ends up with, it won't be due to love-at-first-sight.
Yes, they all fell for him immediately, but Nagi's relationship is an evolving one, where as the others are rather stagnant.
Hinagiku - When he brought her to the balcony to look out over the city, many of her other scenes do more about her tsun- attitude than actually move the relationship anywhere.
Ayumu - When he caught her while her bike was about to go over a cliff
Izumi - When he rescued her (stuffed animal) from the 'viscous' dog (Lucky)
Chiharu - When he gave her a massage
Athena - When he took her offered hand

All based on single scenes, but Nagi's affection is continually tested and reaffirmed in different ways, in her view.

Isumi & Sakuya - When he acts like the big brother figure they hadn't had growing up. But it's even more of a familial relationship for them that they're on the fringes of the harem anyways
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Old 2010-07-28, 14:20   Link #7035
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Yes, they all fell for him immediately, but Nagi's relationship is an evolving one, where as the others are rather stagnant.
...

Er, what?

There is no romantic relationship between Hayate and Nagi whatsoever. Everything is 100% one-sided from Nagi, from chapter 1 where she misunderstood him. Nagi isn't even a blip on Hayate's romantic radar, because he doesn't consider her dating material at all.

He's her guardian, her butler, her protector. He would walk in on her naked and not even flinch. She would kiss him, and he wouldn't even have a second thought about it. Their relationship now is exactly like the relationship in chapter 1: Nagi thinks they're in a relationship, Hayate doesn't consider her romantically whatsoever.

There is some development for Nagi - slooooow development, away from sheltered Hikikomori-dom, and towards a more open personality. But she's still a far shot from mature. If I've missed a scene where Hayate thinks of her in a romantic way, please be so kind and give me a chapter/page reference.

Quote:
Hinagiku - When he brought her to the balcony to look out over the city, many of her other scenes do more about her tsun- attitude than actually move the relationship anywhere.
Hinagiku certainly has the longest and most detailed development. She's come a long way from liking him on first sight, dropping him down to Ayasaki-kun again, trying to help Ayumu with him, realizing her own feelings, and the slow long painful path till yielding him to Athena.

Quote:
Ayumu - When he caught her while her bike was about to go over a cliff
At least, Hayate was happy about her feelings, even though he wasn't able to really return them. Ayumu's role has shifted a bit - less from frontline competitor for Hayate, but more as a confidant and great friend to the other characters.

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Izumi - When he rescued her (stuffed animal) from the 'viscous' dog (Lucky)
Not a real competitor. In both directions. She didn't "fall" for him either.

Quote:
Chiharu - When he gave her a massage
Not a competitor at all. She certainly didn't "fall" for him though.

Quote:
Athena - When he took her offered hand
Another very meaningful and detailed romantic development. It still took her quite a while to "fall" for him though, and it definitely wasn't the "offered hand" scene.
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Old 2010-07-28, 14:29   Link #7036
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Yes, they all fell for him immediately, but Nagi's relationship is an evolving one, where as the others are rather stagnant.
Hinagiku - When he brought her to the balcony to look out over the city, many of her other scenes do more about her tsun- attitude than actually move the relationship anywhere.
Ayumu - When he caught her while her bike was about to go over a cliff
Izumi - When he rescued her (stuffed animal) from the 'viscous' dog (Lucky)
Chiharu - When he gave her a massage
Athena - When he took her offered hand

All based on single scenes, but Nagi's affection is continually tested and reaffirmed in different ways, in her view.

Isumi & Sakuya - When he acts like the big brother figure they hadn't had growing up. But it's even more of a familial relationship for them that they're on the fringes of the harem anyways
Even I have to say that last one was a little unfair to Athena, but she was a special case anyways and their relationship was based on a past that has now been resolved. If she wants an evolving relationship she'll have to start fresh.


I definitely think there's a bit of bias in saying that Ayumu and Hina have "real" romantic development that the other girls lack, given that most of the scenarios involve Hayate going on a date or presenting a gift as a form of "thank you" for something or other, no matter what they're thinking. It's all largely one-sided in the end. For obvious reasons, of course.

Edit:

Quote:
Er, what?

There is no romantic relationship between Hayate and Nagi whatsoever. Everything is 100% one-sided from Nagi, from chapter 1 where she misunderstood him. Nagi isn't even a blip on Hayate's romantic radar, because he doesn't consider her dating material at all.
A relationship doesn't have to be romantic to be an evolving one. Hayate has gone from "kidnap her for ransom" to "Do a good job so you don't get fired" to "I don't want to let her down" to "Why would she sell me to someone else?" to "It doesn't matter if you dislike me, I will always care for you." to "It's lonely being apart from Ojo-sama" and so on, all the way to "The girl I want to protect the most". That's not a trivial thing.

Hayate is oblivious to Nagi's affections, but he only grows more and more attached and devoted to her as time goes on. Nagi's feelings have grown and matured as well. As a pair, they easily have the most developed relationship in the series.

Hina, by comparison, is still stuck in "Must be nice to Hina, or she'll kill me" where she's been for over a hundred chapters now. For all her inner turmoil, he's still convinced she pretty much hates him.

Last edited by madmac; 2010-07-28 at 14:42.
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Old 2010-07-28, 14:49   Link #7037
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If she wants an evolving relationship she'll have to start fresh.
if a relationship start between Athena and Hayate, it won't be form scratch. She is already way ahead of everyone else in the game. While I don't agree with Mentar that we will only see her near the end of the series. I do agree we won't see her for a long while, at least 100 chpts.

Quote:
I definitely think there's a bit of bias in saying that Ayumu and Hina have "real" romantic development that the other girls lack,
Hina hasn't had any romantic developments. But Ayumu defintely had a few, as Hayate is actually aware that she likes him.

Quote:
A relationship doesn't have to be romantic to be an evolving one. Hayate has gone from "kidnap her for ransom" to "Do a good job so you don't get fired" to "I don't want to let her down" to "Why would she sell me to someone else?" to "It doesn't matter if you dislike me, I will always care for you." to "It's lonely being apart from Ojo-sama" and so on, all the way to "The girl I want to protect the most". That's not a trivial thing.
it is not trivial but none of it is on the romantic side. Hayate still looks at Nagi as a little sister type. And that won't change till the end of the series as hayate being aware of Nagi's romantic feelings would completely alter the story form Comedy with a touch of romance to Romantic Drama.

It would go straight to the KGNE level of angst drama.

Athena - Girl he broke a promise to
Nagi - Girl he made a new promise to
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Old 2010-07-28, 15:03   Link #7038
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
It would go straight to the KGNE level of angst drama.

Athena - Girl he broke a promise to
Nagi - Girl he made a new promise to
He broke a promise to Athena?
What would that be?

She's still the one who he loves eternally.
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Old 2010-07-28, 15:03   Link #7039
madmac
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Quote:
it is not trivial but none of it is on the romantic side. Hayate still looks at Nagi as a little sister type. And that won't change till the end of the series as hayate being aware of Nagi's romantic feelings would completely alter the story form Comedy with a touch of romance to Romantic Drama.

It would go straight to the KGNE level of angst drama.

Athena - Girl he broke a promise to
Nagi - Girl he made a new promise to
Well, yeah. There has to be some sort of conflict keeping Hayate and Nagi apart or else this would be an awfully short manga.

Nagi's advantage in this scenario is that time is on her side. Hayate can't possibly see her as a little girl forever. I imagine a fresh round of Athena vs Nagi is in the cards eventually, though. None of the other girls have had enough development to play that role nearly as well as Athena can. I do think Hina will end up doing something, but I'm not sure what exactly. Ayumu has already found a role for herself that doesn't require her to chase Hayate forever.
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Old 2010-07-28, 15:06   Link #7040
Xellos-_^
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by madmac View Post
Well, yeah. There has to be some sort of conflict keeping Hayate and Nagi apart or else this would be an awfully short manga.

Nagi's advantage in this scenario is that time is on her side. Hayate can't possibly see her as a little girl forever. I imagine a fresh round of Athena vs Nagi is in the cards eventually, though. None of the other girls have had enough development to play that role nearly as well as Athena can. I do think Hina will end up doing something, but I'm not sure what exactly. Ayumu has already found a role for herself that doesn't require her to chase Hayate forever.
as much as Mentar like to differ, Hina, Ayumu and Maria's role in this Cheerleader and Adviser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
He broke a promise to Athena?
What would that be?

She's still the one who he loves eternally.
He promise to be with her always but he is not.
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