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Old 2010-07-30, 08:55   Link #11381
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare View Post
Which invariably points to the next question: Since anti-magic has been pushed for the past two seasons now, will it ever end at this stage? Nanoha and her friends' power ceilings are nigh unreachable right now, and if the sequels continue pushing for magic versus anti-magic, then the Magical Girl title in front of Nanoha should be replaced with something else. <.<
There are plenty of ways of making good opponents. The whole TSAB against them (aka Betrayers), other Aces, stronger magic users, those who fight with brains instead of strength (aka, a Chessmaster), etc. Anti-magic is just one of those ways, and with these new weapons, anti-magic shouldn't be much of a concern anymore, so future stories I imagine wouldn't use it so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken View Post
What? Are you blaming a 5 ou 6 years old girl for crying while her father is on the verge of death and her familly threaten to fall appart at any moment? :/
The whole point of the chapter is to show how Nanoha overcame this dramatic event and decided to become stronger, hence not being "emo" anymore.

I can understand that people prefer to see their heroines "strong&cool", but it's not a bad thing to show that they are still human. Right?
Nothing in those pages is much different than what happened in S1... and Nanoha didn't cry out loud like she did in the manga. I'd be willing to accept a 5 or 6 year old Nanoha crying over her father at that point, but she didn't when she was 9. So we still don't have any plot-logical basis for her initial emoha outburst in the movie manga.

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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
That's part of the reason why I cringed at the whole mecha shoutout and slow shift to sci-fi. Not like I dislike sci-fi. But the whole arm race have been done at the expense of the "magical" part of the franchise. And no, we don't need pointy hats, robes and more fireballs of different shapes and colors. Unexplored magic domains could have been fine too! You know, shit like necromancy (what would you think of investigators trying to get the last minute of a dead with a ritual?), geomancy, rituals, expansion on the whole field of illusionary magic, or manipulation of shadows, mind manipulation, and anything you could either see in heroic fantasy games like Dungeons & Dragons or in modern fantasy like White Wolf's Mage. Shit that would make mages feel like MAGES, and not just girls with gigantic boom sticks.
Perhaps Nanoha magic doesn't quite work that way? I mean, after all, magic should allow for time travel too, and Chrono seems to think that's impossible. Perhaps the magic energy they draw can't do much besides what we've seen. And I really haven't seen much of an arms race; I mean, the devices got a slight upgrade in A's, then 10 years passed so I would expect a few new tricks, which is what they got in Strikers. Looks like a new spell or two by Vivid, and then two years later (which is 16 years since Nanoha started), they get a new device which is limited in scope and used to counter a specific kind of threat.

I'd hardly call that a continuous sci-fi upgrade.

By the way, you're geomancy example was already done in Vivid with Corona.
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Old 2010-07-30, 09:46   Link #11382
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as i mentioned 'subtle additions' sometimes you don't make something even tho you can
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Old 2010-07-30, 10:46   Link #11383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
There are plenty of ways of making good opponents. The whole TSAB against them (aka Betrayers), other Aces, stronger magic users, those who fight with brains instead of strength (aka, a Chessmaster), etc. Anti-magic is just one of those ways, and with these new weapons, anti-magic shouldn't be much of a concern anymore, so future stories I imagine wouldn't use it so much.
yes, they are much more creative forms of creting credible opponets but Tsuzuki simpli stops to care about small details like that, it would be awesome to see more "weak but skilled" character like Chrno showing off how deadly they can be(take the Lieze twins as an example, they can semmingly outmatch the entire Wolkenritter based mostly on pure skill, and then, both of them ends being outmached by Chrono himself! xD), an enemy with strategies and spells performed to counter his/her opponents, or enemies whos power levels are on the same scale(if not superior) to our heroines, or different kind of threat they have dificult fighting. Some people call anti-magic lazy and i agree with them, it's dissapointing that having so many forms to bring interesting battles they prefer to go for the "Oh! look shinny new weapons" route(wich is specially sad, considering how creative Tsuzuki was in the past, combining sorcery, curses, magic books, knights, castles filled with mechas, cosmic monsters, and magical girls asll of them combined with great mastery), but then again, this is based progresively more and more on a sci-fi mecha series so i think it's a natural consequence, they need an excuse to get rid of those "fancy magical weapons" so they bring out "Eclipse" who made them useless(except for Bardiche, HOORAY for him!). They have new weapons but they are limited in funcition compared with how unbelivable awesome they are with their old powers, even the upgraded Bardiche it's mentioned that it's much more effective under normal circunstances(and don't let me even begin with all the consequences for the unison devices, really, poor Agito -_-). So, even when they can fight against the Eclipse, you can only look at their attacks and think "wow, i wonder how powerfull that attack would get if not for that pesky anti-magic thing".

Finally i would LOVE to see a last saga where Anti-Magic is not involved and finally we get to see the awesomeness of our heroines. Again for the old Aces and for the first time for all the StrikerS bunch(specially Agito, i want her to show off of what she's capable against a real, counscicious opponent, not to a bunch of flying robots). Really my head finally cools and my anger at FORCE 007 finally minimizes the instant i've decided to stop take this manga seriously, i still following in hopes of a cool moment or two and see what plans are for Signum(and Agito, i really feel sorry for her). Other than that i've started to remeber the good times of the franchise an re-watching A's, even StrikerS have some good things(the Numbers among others xD), i can't say much about FORCE and ViVid overall purpouse but i think that it's a real bad idea to separate the two elements that combined give this franchise his "charm" in the past(Magical girls and touching stories blended with action packed mecha and some sci-fi/mistery genre). In other words FORCE and ViVid got the best aspect of the series "vivisectioned" xDU.
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Old 2010-07-30, 11:34   Link #11384
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if these are repost,please tell me.I'll delete.
iirc GAMERS tokuten was already posted in the image thread.

ViVid vol 2 tokuten for animate(mini artbook's cover in swimsuit)


ViVid vol 2 tokuten for keibunsha(message card in miko costume)


ViVid vol 2 tokuten for toranoana(special cover in tiger maid costume)


ViVid vol 2 tokuten for general book stores(message card in sportswear)


2 postcard from the latest Comp Ace
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Old 2010-07-30, 11:42   Link #11385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
yes, they are much more creative forms of creting credible opponets but Tsuzuki simpli stops to care about small details like that, .
I'm curious, what evidence do you have that he "simpli stops to care about small details like that"? You have that from an interview? Did he say something like that?

Because the Huckbein has so far proven to be credible opponents. As long as the villains of a series can be a logical threat, than they are "credible opponents" regardless of how exactly they accomplish that. It's like whining that your opponent brought a gun to a knife fight, or brought shields that can protect against your magical energy shots. Frankly, I consider it damn smart to toss these eclipse people at the Bureau. Makes me wonder who the chessmaster is behind this, as it can't exactly be coincidence that the Huckbein are doing things like this now.

Maybe you're right and Force will be the worst thing ever. But before we go off half-cocked saying how bad it is... maybe we should wait until the story is done? Perhaps the real enemy is someone manipulating the Huckbein and Bureau into fighting each other. For one thing, we don't know who exactly the scientists are working for, nor what their goals really are.

We just don't know, and at this point, it's a bit illogical to jump the gun, wouldn't you agree?
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Old 2010-07-30, 12:09   Link #11386
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Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken View Post
What? Are you blaming a 5 ou 6 years old girl for crying while her father is on the verge of death and her familly threaten to fall appart at any moment? :/
The whole point of the chapter is to show how Nanoha overcame this dramatic event and decided to become stronger, hence not being "emo" anymore.

I can understand that people prefer to see their heroines "strong&cool", but it's not a bad thing to show that they are still human. Right?
Sure.. an 5-6 years old girl who reacts and express herself as a 30 years old woman... please. When working out the phsycological profile of a character, is very important to go with a logistic, don't make a toddler kid act like a mature adult, that's not emotive or touching, that's laughable.

And I'm against "strong&cool" characters, wich is the main thing Nanoha is in StrikerS. -_-;
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Old 2010-07-30, 12:27   Link #11387
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Old 2010-07-30, 12:42   Link #11388
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Originally Posted by Evil Rick View Post
Sure.. an 5-6 years old girl who reacts and express herself as a 30 years old woman... please. When working out the phsycological profile of a character, is very important to go with a logistic, don't make a toddler kid act like a mature adult, that's not emotive or touching, that's laughable.
6 years old Nanoha acts nothing like an adult . She is in great distress but understands that she can't be a burden for her family given the situation. She simply decides to get a grip and be stronger.
I don't see what's wrong with showing how Nanoha became so mature so fast. That's something that I thought was always missing in her background and finally they give us a perfectly credible and logic explanation.
Plus they didn't transform her in some kind of cold-hearted machine by the time she is 9 : she breaks down at time like any other kid and cries when her feelings overflow (see the scenes in the Movie or manga when she can't communicate with Fate to simply tell her that she wants to be friend with her).
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Old 2010-07-30, 12:56   Link #11389
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Because the Huckbein has so far proven to be credible opponents. As long as the villains of a series can be a logical threat, than they are "credible opponents" regardless of how exactly they accomplish that. It's like whining that your opponent brought a gun to a knife fight, or brought shields that can protect against your magical energy shots. Frankly, I consider it damn smart to toss these eclipse people at the Bureau. Makes me wonder who the chessmaster is behind this, as it can't exactly be coincidence that the Huckbein are doing things like this now.
I'm not sayin they're not threatening, apparently each one of theam(or at least Cypha) when "reacted" can singlehandledy obliterate each hero or villain of previous season withot any effort at all. So yeah, they're unveliabable threatening, but lazy as hell xDU. Again, anti-magic "feels" like an excuse to get rid of previous standarts and stablish a more "militaristic, grey and moraly complex" settings (regardless of how realistic they trying to put it out). About the "gun into a knife fight" thing, it maybe true, in real life, this is not real life, it's an action series, things are not suppussed to be "realistic"(they're mages who can fly and fight with energy blasts and transformig magical weapons for god's sake) Huckebein's powers are a joke plotwise(offending to say the worst), sure, that is the common practice in real life, but they're comic book villains!(i mean ..manga villains! xDU) their kind of menace feels so out of place that looks unsetting, and things from this point are more like the entire nanohaverse is trying to adapt to the appearance of these guys. the sudden change from "action-packed" couraged heroes to "on noes, our powers won't work anymore" made all battles, traning and horoic resolves look pointless if they can just grab a new toy and pull the trigger.

Maybe i'm wrong, maybe it ends in a good way but, just as you just write, at this point this is how things looks like, depend on Tsuzuki skill, what's next, i don't care much about that, i'm here only to watch my favourite characters doing cool things in this new "unsetting world".
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Old 2010-07-30, 13:02   Link #11390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken View Post
6 years old Nanoha acts nothing like an adult . She is in great distress but understands that she can't be a burden for her family given the situation. She simply decides to get a grip and be stronger.
I don't see what's wrong with showing how Nanoha became so mature so fast. That's something that I thought was always missing in her background and finally they give us a perfectly credible and logic explanation.
Plus they didn't transform her in some kind of cold-hearted machine by the time she is 9 : she breaks down at time like any other kid and cries when her feelings overflow (see the scenes in the Movie or manga when she can't communicate with Fate to simply tell her that she wants to be friend with her).
Even when you have a point in several things, I still find it too irrealistic and cliched, since the first season, this moment seemed far too odd, at leats for my own taste.

After all, trough the 3 season Nanoha has shown a bi-polar attitude, First season was "way too mature kid" second was "Friendly fellow" First half of the third was "Strong-dedicated teacher" second half was "protective mother" In vivid is "Lovely dedicated mother" and in the Movie manga is "Emo-kid"

Oh wait, perhaps I see a patron

Meh, just my opinion. Weeeeeeee!!!
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Old 2010-07-30, 13:06   Link #11391
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Er, wasn't everyone but Vivid and Subaru at first "too mature for their age"? Not including normal people like Alisa and Suzuka.
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Old 2010-07-30, 13:19   Link #11392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
I'm not sayin they're not threatening, apparently each one of theam(or at least Cypha) when "reacted" can singlehandledy obliterate each hero or villain of previous season withot any effort at all. So yeah, they're unveliabable threatening, but lazy as hell xDU.
I don't think it's lazy at all. They've established that the antagonists are a threat; you NEED to do that in order to set up tension. And it makes sense in the Nanohaverse, since we already established anti-magic, that it can be taken to extremes. Now the heroes have to learn to deal with that, and we'll see how well their new tactics and weapons work.

Anti-magic exists because every particle has it's anti-particle. Every force has an equal and opposing force.

Quote:
Again, anti-magic "feels" like an excuse to get rid of previous standarts and stablish a more "militaristic, grey and moraly complex" settings (regardless of how realistic they trying to put it out).
I don't think anti-magic is the cause for making it more "grey and moraly complex"; I think Tsuzuki is making it a bit bloodier just to change the overall tone of the series. Vivid and Force seem to be pushing in opposite directions as a way to experiment. He could have made a chessmaster and still made it "militaristic, grey and moraly complex." In fact, if it was more like BetrayerS, I think it would fit your description there more accurately than anti-magic would.

Quote:
the sudden change from "action-packed" couraged heroes to "on noes, our powers won't work anymore" made all battles, traning and horoic resolves look pointless if they can just grab a new toy and pull the trigger.
You're jumping the gun again. We don't know how well these new toys will work. Odds are, it'll still require skill to work and it'll still be a tough fight. To do otherwise would remove the tension. Wait until we at least see how well these things work in practice, eh?

Your concerns could be valid, but the point is we don't know yet. Let it at least play out, before we say overall how good or bad it is. S1 and StrikerS ended much differently than they started out. We got two very good plot twists in S1, and a surprising change of tone just after the midway point of StrikerS. Even A's gave us twists in antagonists, who turned out not to be so evil despite Vita seeming like it when she attacked Nanoha.

At this point, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Old 2010-07-30, 13:40   Link #11393
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At this point, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Me too but i think that it would bad if Cypha turns to the good guys side, i have hope that at least Tsuzuki evolves well her path as an outstanding villain, if she becomes "good" the entire point of getting Signum defeated would be pointless. And talking about that, it feels specially jarring becauseTsuzuki take one of the strongest characters on the entire franchise, put her on a fight with UPGRADES! ....and then made her nearly killed just to show off how useless and pointless all progress and abilities they achieve up until this point is(i don't argue abot cypha winning, but it's a bit unconvincing how futile they made Signum attempts to fight, right after being stablished to be on par with Nanoha). Thus making the necessity to completely change the franchise dynamics.

I still retain some hope that things get balanced again, i just, like somebody say repeated times, don't have them too high raised. What i'm sayin is that FORCE can MAYBE get good, but at the moment i don't see much signs of said potential(besides Bardiche and the little hope his return gives me xD).
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Old 2010-07-30, 13:44   Link #11394
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Er, wasn't everyone but Vivid and Subaru at first "too mature for their age"? Not including normal people like Alisa and Suzuka.
Indeed, but they all have good reasons for that : they all lose their family (Linith in the case of Fate) and had to survive by themselves more or less. They had to be mature at a very young age and fans accept this explanation easily.
Nanoha in the other hand is the only member of the main cast to have a quite "normal" past and whose parents are still alive.
However her past wasn't all that happy and she too got her share of troubles and hard times, which lead her to become such a determinate character. She remains special in that that she consciously changed her way of being at a very young age so that she wouldn't lose anything precious to her anymore (if I understand this last chapter right). Put all together, I really felt like this chapter made her re-/actions more believable.
Now time for befriending pleaz! (*≧艸≦)
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Old 2010-07-30, 14:14   Link #11395
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This month's Movie 1st Manga - Reason - introduce new material about Nanoha's past and well, her reasons for fighting (also explains why she has been so emotive in this installement) :

Spoiler for Movie 1st 1-7 Reason (Preview):
Seems kind of odd that Nanoha had such an emotional reaction, compared to the anime where we were shown she was lonely, but still managing it quite well on her own. Then again, I suppose the movie manga is trying to reach some pre-set "Rule Of Drama" or something. Any idea when it will be translated?
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Old 2010-07-30, 14:28   Link #11396
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You know, it's an AU manga and all...And it might be just picking up points which the original anime did not delve deep enough into.

Just because Nanoha didn't cry much in the series, doesn't mean she didn't cry off-screen. It took her about 30seconds to start crying when Fate was leaving for her trial, I can't imagine why her father nearly dieing wouldn't bear the same affect.
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Old 2010-07-30, 14:37   Link #11397
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I'm just making a comment. I can certainly respect that the AU movie manga is touching on things that we never saw developed in the original series, but that doesn't mean I have to like how they've done it so far. Especially with Nanoha's character.
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Old 2010-07-30, 16:03   Link #11398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Looks like Tsuzuki himself is surprised to find that Signum actually have a fanbase xDU ...well at least he finally notices xDU.
Not a month too soon, as well. :-\
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Old 2010-07-30, 16:43   Link #11399
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Not a month too soon, as well. :-\
Amen bro, amen -_-

Besides, there are previews of the new Vivid chapter xD? i want to know what's next after all the atomic fun(something interesting will be if some bad mean guys or abusive familiars appear looking for Einhart) xD

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Old 2010-07-30, 18:06   Link #11400
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if these are repost,please tell me.I'll delete.
All this stuff is new, thanks a bunch

If you get your hands on some more, please share! There's another swimsuit cover, right? One with Rio and Corona on it?
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