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View Poll Results: The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya - Rating
Perfect 10 235 64.56%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 93 25.55%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 25 6.87%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 1.92%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 0.82%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.27%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 364. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-07-06, 01:52   Link #261
Ithekro
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There are only a few being in Haruhi's universe that can stop the blue haired one...and only two are known to have that power as of the time period of the film.
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Old 2010-07-12, 23:14   Link #262
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Just got back from holiday in Tokyo/Osaka... actually its been two weeks now. Man, I didn't wanna come back... being back in London sucks.
Anyway, made sure to watch Disappearance some time during the trip, even though I've already seen the cam-rip. But it was worth every penny! Went to see it at Movix cinema in Kashihara... man it was some proper back water area. When we got out the station I was skeptical whether there was a even a cinema around
But wow, seeing it on big screen was so much more awsome! You spot stuff you can't make out in the cam-rip. One detail I really didn't see in the cam-rip was that there were reflections even in the blood drops when Asakura is spinning around and swinging her knife.
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Old 2010-07-31, 03:35   Link #263
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I went to Takatsuki instead (thank goodness it is closer to my hotel).

Celebrated by buying a pamphlet, but foiled by missing the Haruhi booster pack and rejuvenated by going to Satte, Saitama (but that's off topic XD)
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Old 2010-07-31, 20:03   Link #264
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I was just wondering how Kyon was able to save himself in the first place?
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Old 2010-08-02, 10:56   Link #265
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Originally Posted by Animexcel View Post
I was just wondering how Kyon was able to save himself in the first place?
Stable time-loops. The same way Kyon knows about Mikuru's mole when adult Mikuru told him, while young Mikuru had to be told about the mole by Kyon afterwards. Don't think in a straight line.
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Old 2010-08-02, 16:46   Link #266
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Stable time-loops. The same way Kyon knows about Mikuru's mole when adult Mikuru told him, while young Mikuru had to be told about the mole by Kyon afterwards. Don't think in a straight line.
*Frustrated sigh* Marty, you're not thinking fourth-dimensionally!
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Old 2010-08-04, 02:18   Link #267
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Stable time-loops. The same way Kyon knows about Mikuru's mole when adult Mikuru told him, while young Mikuru had to be told about the mole by Kyon afterwards. Don't think in a straight line.
So that world has a sort of predestination about it, eh? It must, because it's understood that those things will happen no matter what. There's no other way to explain it; the very concept of a time loop is logically impossible. Loops still must have a beginning; after all, when you see a juggler, you know that the balls weren't always in the air, right?

Furthermore, there's a very real time paradox that's conveniently ignored for the sake of the plot.
Spoiler for paradox during the climax:
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Old 2010-08-04, 03:01   Link #268
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So that world has a sort of predestination about it, eh? It must, because it's understood that those things will happen no matter what. There's no other way to explain it; the very concept of a time loop is logically impossible. Loops still must have a beginning; after all, when you see a juggler, you know that the balls weren't always in the air, right?
Nope. Loops don't need to have a beginning, that is the same reason a circle has no angles.

A ball cannot loop through time because it is physical and will degrade. But INFORMATION, Data, can loop through time as many incidences as it likes without a beginning. You only ASSUME everything has a beginning because you can't travel through time, it's like saying flying is impossible if you have never heard of a plane.

There is a difference between something that is impossible and something you have never seen.
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Old 2010-08-04, 03:17   Link #269
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Nope. Loops don't need to have a beginning, that is the same reason a circle has no angles.

A ball cannot loop through time because it is physical and will degrade. But INFORMATION, Data, can loop through time as many incidences as it likes without a beginning. You only ASSUME everything has a beginning because you can't travel through time, it's like saying flying is impossible if you have never heard of a plane.
Information needs a beginning, too. This post that I'm typing right now didn't always exist. I made it. Yes, now that it's made it can exist indefinitely; I don't think there's any question about that. But the fact that something can last forever doesn't mean that it must have always existed.

Think about it this way. Person A is Person B's biological father. Person B is person A's biological father. Is this possible? No, because there are mutually exclusive preconditions. The same would be true in a time loop. Eternal or not, if you have mutually exclusive preconditions, the two things will never happen.

If you know anything about programming, you'll know this has to be true. A computer program is just information, right? It's not physical, it will never degrade, and so on. And yet, it's impossible to simultaneously start two mutually dependent processes. That's just the way logic works.

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There is a difference between something that is impossible and something you have never seen.
There's also a difference between an assumed impossibility and a logical impossibility. If I roll a four sided die and it never lands on 4, I might assume it's loaded and can never land on 4. That's an assumed impossibility, and I could very well be wrong. However, I can't be wrong if I say it will never land on 5. Getting a 5 with a four sided die is a logical impossibility. It simply cannot happen.
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Old 2010-08-04, 03:38   Link #270
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
Information needs a beginning, too. This post that I'm typing right now didn't always exist. I made it. Yes, now that it's made it can exist indefinitely; I don't think there's any question about that. But the fact that something can last forever doesn't mean that it must have always existed.

Think about it this way. Person A is Person B's biological father. Person B is person A's biological father. Is this possible? No, because there are mutually exclusive preconditions. The same would be true in a time loop. Eternal or not, if you have mutually exclusive preconditions, the two things will never happen.

If you know anything about programming, you'll know this has to be true. A computer program is just information, right? It's not physical, it will never degrade, and so on. And yet, it's impossible to simultaneously start two mutually dependent processes. That's just the way logic works.



There's also a difference between an assumed impossibility and a logical impossibility. If I roll a four sided die and it never lands on 4, I might assume it's loaded and can never land on 4. That's an assumed impossibility, and I could very well be wrong. However, I can't be wrong if I say it will never land on 5. Getting a 5 with a four sided die is a logical impossibility. It simply cannot happen.
It seems you couldn't get yourself thinking outside the timestream.

Which is strange, because by all means you should find much of the Haruhi series impossible to comprehend. You listed examples of what you know how things work as evidence that stable timeloops are impossible, the same way someone could claim flight is impossible by strapping wings to himself and fall off a cliff.

But here is the point; for timetraveling to the past to occur, information needs to be able to go backwards in time. It is as necessary as saying you need to eat food in order to have breakfast. And what is the definition of the "beginning" of a piece of information? The earliest point in time when the information existed. But that made no sense when with time travel allow information to go outside the flow.

The very IDEA of a "beginning" is stuck on the very concept that everything could only flow forward in the timestream. A timemachine blows a hole in that idea immediately.
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Old 2010-08-04, 04:39   Link #271
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Of course that leads into the question on if it is only time travel, and not dimention hopping.

And what it means to recreate the world like one is a god. (Note it needs to be done at least twice to set things to "normal").

Then there is the Endless Eight. A time loop...but is it stable? What is its beginning? The first day in August that Kyon gets that phone call from Haruhi? Or was it August 30 when Haruhi was unsatisfied wth her summer? Or was it sometime before that when Haruhi's subconscience decided to start over again? And was it even the first loop that they started looping? Haruhi might have been happy in the first loop, but another loop/dimension she was not and reset all dimensions so they looped. The "last" loop could have been the first were she was "happy" and thus it did not loop. Also it might have been that not all loops actually looped, just that is how Yuki preceived them in her observations.

Also...who can tell exactly what Mikuru's job is as a time traveller? Does she have a beginning and an ending? Which version of her came first into the timeline? We don't know for sure.
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Old 2010-08-04, 09:22   Link #272
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
It seems you couldn't get yourself thinking outside the timestream.

Which is strange, because by all means you should find much of the Haruhi series impossible to comprehend.
Oh, I have no problem admitting that logic used throughout the series is very screwy when it comes to this sort of thing. And yes, I do find it impossible to comprehend, in the same way that I find Escher's staircases impossible to comprehend. I can see them and understand what's being presented, but I can't come to terms with the underlying logical problems.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
But here is the point; for timetraveling to the past to occur, information needs to be able to go backwards in time. It is as necessary as saying you need to eat food in order to have breakfast. And what is the definition of the "beginning" of a piece of information? The earliest point in time when the information existed. But that made no sense when with time travel allow information to go outside the flow.
Allowing an altered flow doesn't preclude the concept of a beginning. Your flawed definition breaks down when you allow time travel (which admittedly is what you intended), but that doesn't mean that beginnings as a concept cease to exist. Instead, it would be better to consider a "beginning" to be the point at which the information originated. For example, if we look at an oval race track, the beginning is at the starting line, not at the southmost point of the track. Sure, they can be the same location, but they don't have to be. Furthermore, if two people start running around the track in different directions, they still had to have had a starting point. It doesn't matter one bit that they're not going the same way, and if they stop at the north and south ends, that doesn't mean the southmost person started earlier.

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The very IDEA of a "beginning" is stuck on the very concept that everything could only flow forward in the timestream. A timemachine blows a hole in that idea immediately.
No, beginning is based on cause and effect. The beginning of something is the cause, regardless of which way the effect flows. And before you try to tell me that causality can't truly exist if time isn't linear, consider the following.

Time travel, any sort of time travel, still has an inherent understanding that time flows forward by default. Altering the past isn't done by doing something that cascades backward; it's done by inserting yourself at an earlier point in that flow and doing something that cascades forward (ultimately affecting things that occurred before you went back in time). Cause and effect still exist.

Consider a small stream. A person standing at a particular spot in that stream will have water flowing around his feet. Now let's say that person goes 50 feet upriver and drops a big boulder in it, diverting or halting the flow of water. When he returns to his original spot, it's different from when he started, even though he's at the exact same location. It's clear that the ability to move freely in a river (or time) doesn't prove that the river (or time) has no flow.

Go ahead, try to imagine a world without cause and effect. It's chaos, isn't it?


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Then there is the Endless Eight. A time loop...but is it stable? What is its beginning? The first day in August that Kyon gets that phone call from Haruhi? Or was it August 30 when Haruhi was unsatisfied wth her summer? Or was it sometime before that when Haruhi's subconscience decided to start over again? And was it even the first loop that they started looping? Haruhi might have been happy in the first loop, but another loop/dimension she was not and reset all dimensions so they looped. The "last" loop could have been the first were she was "happy" and thus it did not loop. Also it might have been that not all loops actually looped, just that is how Yuki preceived them in her observations.
The loop is clearly not stable if it doesn't last indefinitely. Furthermore, the fact that Yuki gets tired is evidence for their sequential nature. If the loops occurred in parallel, where Yuki had to take in all that information at the same time, then four things couldn't have happened. First, Yuki couldn't have had a progression from normal to "bored." Similarly, there could never have been a "first" episode where everything was alright. Second, Yuki couldn't number the loops so easily (although I admit that her counts of working part time vary arbitrarily between episodes; I don't know what to make of that). Third, feelings of déjà vu couldn't have built up the way they did. And finally, there's no reason for there to be exactly 15,532 loops if they happened "at the same time." There should have been an infinite number of dimensions, and Yuki should've been able to feel that.

In short, because there was a "first" loop, the loop was unstable and began at midnight on the last day of summer. Because it had a beginning, and because that beginning was at the tail end of an iteration, it must have been looping sequentially.


EDIT: Well how about that? Today's Dinosaur Comics references time loops. And as that spurred further research on Wikipedia and the like, I've learned that this ridiculous concept is actually quite prevalent in science fiction. Does that mean I'm going to stop arguing against it? Nope.

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Old 2010-08-04, 13:41   Link #273
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Oh, I have no problem admitting that logic used throughout the series is very screwy when it comes to this sort of thing. And yes, I do find it impossible to comprehend, in the same way that I find Escher's staircases impossible to comprehend. I can see them and understand what's being presented, but I can't come to terms with the underlying logical problems.


Allowing an altered flow doesn't preclude the concept of a beginning. Your flawed definition breaks down when you allow time travel (which admittedly is what you intended), but that doesn't mean that beginnings as a concept cease to exist. Instead, it would be better to consider a "beginning" to be the point at which the information originated. For example, if we look at an oval race track, the beginning is at the starting line, not at the southmost point of the track. Sure, they can be the same location, but they don't have to be. Furthermore, if two people start running around the track in different directions, they still had to have had a starting point. It doesn't matter one bit that they're not going the same way, and if they stop at the north and south ends, that doesn't mean the southmost person started earlier.


No, beginning is based on cause and effect. The beginning of something is the cause, regardless of which way the effect flows. And before you try to tell me that causality can't truly exist if time isn't linear, consider the following.

Time travel, any sort of time travel, still has an inherent understanding that time flows forward by default. Altering the past isn't done by doing something that cascades backward; it's done by inserting yourself at an earlier point in that flow and doing something that cascades forward (ultimately affecting things that occurred before you went back in time). Cause and effect still exist.

Consider a small stream. A person standing at a particular spot in that stream will have water flowing around his feet. Now let's say that person goes 50 feet upriver and drops a big boulder in it, diverting or halting the flow of water. When he returns to his original spot, it's different from when he started, even though he's at the exact same location. It's clear that the ability to move freely in a river (or time) doesn't prove that the river (or time) has no flow.

Go ahead, try to imagine a world without cause and effect. It's chaos, isn't it?



The loop is clearly not stable if it doesn't last indefinitely. Furthermore, the fact that Yuki gets tired is evidence for their sequential nature. If the loops occurred in parallel, where Yuki had to take in all that information at the same time, then four things couldn't have happened. First, Yuki couldn't have had a progression from normal to "bored." Similarly, there could never have been a "first" episode where everything was alright. Second, Yuki couldn't number the loops so easily (although I admit that her counts of working part time vary arbitrarily between episodes; I don't know what to make of that). Third, feelings of déjà vu couldn't have built up the way they did. And finally, there's no reason for there to be exactly 15,532 loops if they happened "at the same time." There should have been an infinite number of dimensions, and Yuki should've been able to feel that.

In short, because there was a "first" loop, the loop was unstable and began at midnight on the last day of summer. Because it had a beginning, and because that beginning was at the tail end of an iteration, it must have been looping sequentially.


EDIT: Well how about that? Today's Dinosaur Comics references time loops. And as that spurred further research on Wikipedia and the like, I've learned that this ridiculous concept is actually quite prevalent in science fiction. Does that mean I'm going to stop arguing against it? Nope.
Just because you're incapable of understanding it doesn't mean it's a "ridiculous concept". And no, I'm not going to bother trying to explain it, since VCV already explained it as well as possible.

But I will say this. You're arguing this from the wrong angle. This isn't science, It's literature. It's a storytelling method. Its very reason for existence is to turn logic on its ear. That's why there's no one "correct" way to look at it. Just on this page, you've already seen discussion of alternate timelines as...well, an alternative to the stable time loop.

And yes, assuming time travel into the past without "changing" the present is possible, it is possible to go back and become one's own grandfather. Being yourself and being your grandfather are not "mutually exclusive" if the one thing keeping them mutually exclusive in the real world (not being able to exist before one's birth) is surpassed. Haven't you ever seen Futurama?
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Old 2010-08-04, 14:06   Link #274
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You're arguing this from the wrong angle. This isn't science, It's literature. It's a storytelling method. Its very reason for existence is to turn logic on its ear. That's why there's no one "correct" way to look at it. Just on this page, you've already seen discussion of alternate timelines as...well, an alternative to the stable time loop.
I'm okay with this sort of time travel being used as a plot device as long as it's understood to be illogical. It's only when people say, "it's actually feasible if you look at it this way" that I have my objections.

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And yes, assuming time travel into the past without "changing" the present is possible, it is possible to go back and become one's own grandfather. Being yourself and being your grandfather are not "mutually exclusive" if the one thing keeping them mutually exclusive in the real world (not being able to exist before one's birth) is surpassed. Haven't you ever seen Futurama?
I haven't, but referencing fiction to support other fiction isn't really a sound argument anyway. And I'm not sure about the whole grandfather thing. It's twisting my mind too much for me to simply repeat my previous arguments; the only question that's entering my head now is, "Isn't existing before your own existence similar to being north of the North Pole?"

I guess my biggest issue right now is this. If we step back and view time as a single entity rather than a progression, the loops might almost work out. The bigger problem, then, is that time is now a single entity. In other words, there's no development or any of that; the entire past, present, and future are all one thing. They're set in stone. Everything is predestined. I'm just not sure I'm willing to make the compromise of sacrificing free will to retain logic.
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Old 2010-08-04, 14:52   Link #275
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Considering that at this point in time (us) we have no means of even testing any theories about time travel, or time itself really since we are stuck on a linear plain of existance, it is difficult to comprehend if anything about time travel is possible or not.

As for "north of the north pole" That depends on how you define north and the 720 degrees of motion around it. Since the north pole is "north" of the "magnetic north pole" on a map, even though on a compass you would be "south" of "north" if you were standing on the north pole. Then you have spacial orientation compared to the Polaris (the North Star) which is pretty much directly over the North Pole. It is above the pole, or north of the pole? Also since one has to go in a direction of travel from the north pole, the only logical direction is south, but this is incorrect since there are still 720 degrees of movement.

As for predestined events...that is Mikuru's idea of time (she is the time traveller after all), though Yuki seems to have a different idea of time (the alien that can bend data to her will), and Haruhi/Kyon break the rules. Itsuki's ideas...well he believes in Kyon and Haruhi. Thus it is entirely possible that the loop is not as closed at it appears.

Enter: one Kyon, one Haruhi, one Yuki, one Mikuru, one Itsuki.
Emergency Program: Exit one Kyon
Re-start: Enter: two Kyons, one Haruhi, one Yuki, two Mikuru, one Itsuki
Post-script: Enter three Kyons?, One Haruhi, two Yuki (what?), Three Mikuru, One Itsuki.
(Wait, what?)
Reset complete: Exit One Kyon, Two Mikuru (supposely).
Time restarts after incident: Umm...there is still an extra Kyon and Yuki...isn't there?

Yuki is actually covered...but what about the extra Kyon? There is the one that is asleep, the one that come forward from the past with Mikuru (BIG) and the one that must have come back from the future to save himself with Mikuru(small) (and I suppose Yuki since that's the only one I know of that can stop Ryoko). The stabbed Kyon recovers in the hospital with some kind of cover story...the future Kyon goes back to his own time I suppose....but umm, what about the sleeping one? He's the one that would go to school to find things messed up, then go back in time to set things right, come forward again, get stabbed, then saved, reset time, come back at a later time to save himself..then go on with his "abnormal" life with Haruhi and the SOS-dan.

But if one version fixes time, then the other shouldn't have to do that, breaking the loop from happening. Except the world still had to be altered before they could fix the damages....and we didn't see the resolution of that in the movie did we. Kyon never completed his mission (the blue haired one sort of stopped him cold), yet his future self took up the task it seems...yet Kyon passed out so we didn't get to see how things resolved (or if they resolved...since falling down the stairs while feeling a stab wound to the kidney doesn't fit...does it).


Ah the wonders of not having the whole story to finish the time loop theories.
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Old 2010-08-04, 15:27   Link #276
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As for "north of the north pole" That depends on how you define north and the 720 degrees of motion around it. Since the north pole is "north" of the "magnetic north pole" on a map, even though on a compass you would be "south" of "north" if you were standing on the north pole. Then you have spacial orientation compared to the Polaris (the North Star) which is pretty much directly over the North Pole. It is above the pole, or north of the pole? Also since one has to go in a direction of travel from the north pole, the only logical direction is south, but this is incorrect since there are still 720 degrees of movement.
  • Where did the extra 360 degrees come from?
  • The distinction between magnetic north and polar north is one of semantics, at least in the context of my question.
  • Being above something is not the same as being north of it. An airplane flying directly above New York is not north of New York.
  • Actually, it is possible to have all 360 degrees of motion being south. That's part of the definition of the North Pole, and that's why my question "What's north of the North Pole?" is so significant.

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But if one version fixes time, then the other shouldn't have to do that, breaking the loop from happening. Except the world still had to be altered before they could fix the damages....and we didn't see the resolution of that in the movie did we. Kyon never completed his mission (the blue haired one sort of stopped him cold), yet his future self took up the task it seems...yet Kyon passed out so we didn't get to see how things resolved (or if they resolved...since falling down the stairs while feeling a stab wound to the kidney doesn't fit...does it).

Ah the wonders of not having the whole story to finish the time loop theories.
I think in Book 7 it's explained that Yuki was actually stopped. Of course, that leads to the paradox I mentioned at the top of the page.
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Old 2010-08-04, 17:05   Link #277
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I guess my biggest issue right now is this. If we step back and view time as a single entity rather than a progression, the loops might almost work out. The bigger problem, then, is that time is now a single entity. In other words, there's no development or any of that; the entire past, present, and future are all one thing. They're set in stone. Everything is predestined. I'm just not sure I'm willing to make the compromise of sacrificing free will to retain logic.
Mikuru's people WISH time is predestined. They are horrified at the possibility that it might not be, as what seemed like "freedom" to you is "total erasure" for those who live in the future.

That's why Mikuru has mental security that prevents her from leaking secrets. If time-line is fixed, there would be no point preventing her from altering time. Quite simply, if the future changed, everyone Mikuru knew back home will cease to BE.

Currently the Haruhi universe made it clear that outside of those with superpowers, everyone will make the choice that they will make. It is still their CHOICE to make them, just because the future results exist doesn't invalidate their choice. We are what we choose to be, and the future is whatever we make.

The only people who are screwed up and you should feel pity for are the people from the Future. They are obsessed with doing what they feel they had to do because of knowledge from the future. That is why Yuki locked herself out of reading the future; she knows she will make the same choices regardless of whether she know the end results or not, so why bother knowing the future at all?

Haruhi doesn't apply, of course. Nothing applies for Haruhi.
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Old 2010-08-04, 23:34   Link #278
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I'm okay with this sort of time travel being used as a plot device as long as it's understood to be illogical. It's only when people say, "it's actually feasible if you look at it this way" that I have my objections.
I don't think anyone is arguing this stuff as feasible. "Logic" is a different story, as most good time travel fiction is based on some degree of logical progression. Granted, it's some twisted, abnormal logic, but is often internally consistent.

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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
I haven't, but referencing fiction to support other fiction isn't really a sound argument anyway. And I'm not sure about the whole grandfather thing. It's twisting my mind too much for me to simply repeat my previous arguments; the only question that's entering my head now is, "Isn't existing before your own existence similar to being north of the North Pole?"
Forget I even mentioned fiction and argue the point instead of just dismissing it with a fallacious argument (should I reference reality to support fiction?) and a misquotation of my own words. I said "being able to exist before one's birth", not "one's existence". That is a huge distinction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Mikuru's people WISH time is predestined. They are horrified at the possibility that it might not be, as what seemed like "freedom" to you is "total erasure" for those who live in the future.

That's why Mikuru has mental security that prevents her from leaking secrets. If time-line is fixed, there would be no point preventing her from altering time. Quite simply, if the future changed, everyone Mikuru knew back home will cease to BE.

Currently the Haruhi universe made it clear that outside of those with superpowers, everyone will make the choice that they will make. It is still their CHOICE to make them, just because the future results exist doesn't invalidate their choice. We are what we choose to be, and the future is whatever we make.

The only people who are screwed up and you should feel pity for are the people from the Future. They are obsessed with doing what they feel they had to do because of knowledge from the future. That is why Yuki locked herself out of reading the future; she knows she will make the same choices regardless of whether she know the end results or not, so why bother knowing the future at all?

Haruhi doesn't apply, of course. Nothing applies for Haruhi.
Thanks for explaining the fallacy of the whole free will versus predetermination argument. You saved me the trouble. ^_^ It's one of the more popular and stubborn arguments that when you get down to it, really is apples (intent) and oranges (results)...
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Old 2010-08-04, 23:46   Link #279
Gamer_2k4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Mikuru's people WISH time is predestined. They are horrified at the possibility that it might not be, as what seemed like "freedom" to you is "total erasure" for those who live in the future.

That's why Mikuru has mental security that prevents her from leaking secrets. If time-line is fixed, there would be no point preventing her from altering time. Quite simply, if the future changed, everyone Mikuru knew back home will cease to BE.

Currently the Haruhi universe made it clear that outside of those with superpowers, everyone will make the choice that they will make. It is still their CHOICE to make them, just because the future results exist doesn't invalidate their choice. We are what we choose to be, and the future is whatever we make.

The only people who are screwed up and you should feel pity for are the people from the Future. They are obsessed with doing what they feel they had to do because of knowledge from the future. That is why Yuki locked herself out of reading the future; she knows she will make the same choices regardless of whether she know the end results or not, so why bother knowing the future at all?

Haruhi doesn't apply, of course. Nothing applies for Haruhi.
So how do you have a closed time loop without fixed time? If time isn't fixed, then future events are caused by present or past events. In other words, for something in the the future to occur, it MUST be preceded by something in the past. However, a true closed loop would require simultaneity. If a bike wheel spins, the top part of it goes down at exactly the same time and rate as the bottom part goes up. It's fixed. Neither motion causes the other; they're intertwined as part of a single structure.

You say that the existence of a future doesn't invalidate someone's choices; I disagree. If there is only one action a person will EVER take in a given situation (which would be the only way to have a static future), then they don't have a choice. You're right, there would be no point in preventing Mikuru from slipping up, but the time travelers will do it anyway. They can never do anything else. Furthermore, what would be the point of Yuki locking herself out of the future if the end results are the same? Why not have the additional knowledge from knowing the future if it's not going to change anything?

If I hand you a complete map and say, "You can name this city whatever you want, as long as it's Atlanta," you really don't have a choice, do you? The fact that the map exists precludes your having any freedom in your decision.

Incidentally, you've hit upon the main reason why time travel is fundamentally flawed. "If the future is changed, everyone Mikuru knew back home will cease to BE." Exactly! So the very fact that they exist means that the future can't change! It's one giant closed time loop, one giant fixed entity. The time travelers don't need to wish that the future is fixed, because it must be. This really begs the question of why they time travel at all? Without their influence, the past is the past. It's unchangeable, and they're protected.

Oh, Haruhi is exempt? Well, the only reason for that is because SOMEONE was dicking around and took Kyon back in time. Disappearance made it clear that even with his influence, Haruhi wasn't necessarily going to go to North High. She might have ended up normal. So why introduce the extra stimulus at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
I don't think anyone is arguing this stuff as feasible. "Logic" is a different story, as most good time travel fiction is based on some degree of logical progression. Granted, it's some twisted, abnormal logic, but is often internally consistent.
Well, we lose the internal consistency when Kyon goes back in time to stop Yuki and succeeds, especially if you've already agreed to play by the rules that have been set down earlier (allowing the existence of closed loops and such). Kyon from the alternate universe prevented Yuki from creating that alternate universe, and we have the grandfather paradox.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
I said "being able to exist before one's birth", not "one's existence". That is a huge distinction.
Then I see no way that you can make that allowance. While it's not impossible to exist prior to your birth, it IS impossible to influence that birth in any way. Completely throwing away the genetic issues that would make fathering yourself a statistical impossibility (have you ever seen someone with a kid or grandkid EXACTLY like them?), the influence of your existence in the past, especially as far as family goes, would alter conditions too much for the time travel to be consistent. If it truly was a closed loop, then we have all the problems I listed above with such things.


ONE FINAL EDIT:
The fact that the things we're talking about are described as paradoxes (ontological paradox, predestination paradox, grandfather paradox) means that they all cause problems logic is unable to resolve. Do they make for good reading and an entertaining movie? No question. It's just that these things are not possible, whether in fiction or reality. If they were defensible, they wouldn't be paradoxes. If the logic worked, they wouldn't be paradoxes. However, no one has been able to make a convincing argument against the paradoxical nature of plot devices like these, and that's really not going to change on an internet forum.

Last edited by Gamer_2k4; 2010-08-05 at 00:44.
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Old 2010-08-05, 00:41   Link #280
Ithekro
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The problem is the question, "is it a closed loop?"

We don't know for sure. It seems closed, but there could always be a gap in the loop (specifically Kyon).

Also there is a problem with the predestination argument within the series. The future cannot be changed so the choice don't matter...however we find that choice is possible and can change things to some degree. See the Endless Eight. The loops were not exactly the same. If time could not be altered, each loop would have been the same reguardless of what Kyon or anyones else does. In fact even the weather was not the same in the various loops. Sometimes it was sunny, sometimes overcast with huge thunder clouds and sometimes it rained. Thus even the enviroment is subject to change even in a simple two week time loop.

As for the "extra 360 degrees" I consider all movement in a three dimensional enviroment valid since we do not live in a two dimensional world of a map. Up and down are valid movements even if not typical.
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