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Old 2010-08-05, 12:33   Link #21
Nanya01
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I.D.s are EXPENSIVE!

Really, they can be made by anyone (Linith, Rio and Lutecia have all made I.D.s), but the cost isn't always worth it.

It's why most Bureau members go with Storage devices, cheaper, less AI to worry about, and they can do most of the work anyway. (Though apparently the lack of AI means that they don't get too reliant on the device helping them do the work.)
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Old 2010-08-05, 13:02   Link #22
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^ Storage devices also convert mana faster iirc.

So apparently, that Huckebein airship thing might be a Lost Logia. Dunno if you guys poked that in the manga thread, but I'll probably end up looking at Analyzer later today.
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So, anyway, if Fortis is just the field commander, who the heck is the main leader of the Huckubein?
Has everyone forgotten about Karen already?
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Kinda makes me wonder on what Zwei's real purpose is. The book is basically the power plant, and the staff is the cannon, so Rein is...a glorified fire control? Well, at least she's cute
Well, aiming, how to use mana and I guess her ability to modify spells like how Agito burns things up, iirc. Except Rein doesn't have natural affinity [to ice] like Fate/Erio/Sigu/Agito do. The Unison In'd couple can use each other's power freely, we've just only seen the one case where the device took over the user. Must get around to looking at Reinforce's route in the PSP game....

I think the Japanese wiki mentioned something about magic power and precision being doubled, but lol.
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Old 2010-08-05, 13:22   Link #23
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
I.D.s are EXPENSIVE!

Really, they can be made by anyone (Linith, Rio and Lutecia have all made I.D.s), but the cost isn't always worth it.

It's why most Bureau members go with Storage devices, cheaper, less AI to worry about, and they can do most of the work anyway. (Though apparently the lack of AI means that they don't get too reliant on the device helping them do the work.)
Actually, we know next to nothing about the cost of creating, purchasing or maintaining an intelligent device. Consider, however, that even Yuuno -who hardly fits the definition of wealthy- owns one and as you noted Lutecia makes the darn things as a hobby and price doesn't seem to be the issue.

I think it's more of a trust issue. Not everyone is willing to put their trust in a machine with a mind of it's own. They fear the Terminator effect, as it were.
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Old 2010-08-05, 13:40   Link #24
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^ Storage devices also convert mana faster iirc.

So apparently, that Huckebein airship thing might be a Lost Logia. Dunno if you guys poked that in the manga thread, but I'll probably end up looking at Analyzer later today.Has everyone forgotten about Karen already? Well, aiming, how to use mana and I guess her ability to modify spells like how Agito burns things up, iirc. Except Rein doesn't have natural affinity [to ice] like Fate/Erio/Sigu/Agito do. The Unison In'd couple can use each other's power freely, we've just only seen the one case where the device took over the user. Must get around to looking at Reinforce's route in the PSP game....

I think the Japanese wiki mentioned something about magic power and precision being doubled, but lol.
So...uh, fire control and warhead manipulation, then?

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Actually, we know next to nothing about the cost of creating, purchasing or maintaining an intelligent device. Consider, however, that even Yuuno -who hardly fits the definition of wealthy- owns one and as you noted Lutecia makes the darn things as a hobby and price doesn't seem to be the issue.

I think it's more of a trust issue. Not everyone is willing to put their trust in a machine with a mind of it's own. They fear the Terminator effect, as it were.
Just because Yuuno has one doesn't necessarily mean that he buy it. It could have been a family heirloom(of course, this raises the question on why he never asked it back from Nanoha), or he could have just found it in one of his archeological digs; anime archeologists has the tendency to find interesting forgotten weapons instead of useless bones, fossils and pottery anyway . And Lutecia is stuck in a prison planet, so she could just scour the entire planet for raw materials. Besides, since she was making it for others (Rio/Corona? I forgot), they were probably the ones that handles the cost issue...
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Old 2010-08-05, 14:15   Link #25
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Yes, because prison planets are just ripe with parts for magical weaponry and ten year olds are so much more wealthier.

Seriously though, we don't have any clue what an intelligent device costs to buy or build, but saying cost is the reason why the bureau doesn't equip their personnel with them while kids hand them out to one another like they're candy is rather silly.
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Old 2010-08-05, 14:19   Link #26
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Well, from what Linith said in the Sound stages, she had to get lots of parts and stuff for them, so... *Shrugs*

As for Lutecia, well, her mother was a former Bureau member, she could call in a few favors for parts for her daughter, don't you think?
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Old 2010-08-05, 14:24   Link #27
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Rein Zwei, the answer is in her name: Reinforce. Not only fire control, but one would assume enhanced spell power and mana control, as well as enhanced defenses (Vita says she would have died if it weren't for Rein).

As for devices, we've established that a mage can use two, the question is why not? Personal preference could account for it, but personally if one device can do everything I need, why do I need a second? A spare?

One gun isn't that expensive, but equipping your entire force with two guns each can be a bit pricey.
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Old 2010-08-05, 14:28   Link #28
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Yes, because prison planets are just ripe with parts for magical weaponry and ten year olds are so much more wealthier.

Seriously though, we don't have any clue what an intelligent device costs to buy or build, but saying cost is the reason why the bureau doesn't equip their personnel with them while kids hand them out to one another like they're candy is rather silly.
St. Hilde seems like one of those prestigious schools, so them having nicer pocket money than your average ten-year olds is not that surprising. And Nanoha and Fate has lots of military connections(that's how they upgraded RH and Bardiche with the cartridge system), and we have yet to know about Rio and Corona's family, so the possibility still exists.

Besides, the Terminator Effect argument kinda falls apart when you consider that most ID we see never even come close to rebelling...

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Rein Zwei, the answer is in her name: Reinforce. Not only fire control, but one would assume enhanced spell power and mana control, as well as enhanced defenses (Vita says she would have died if it weren't for Rein).
Ah, I see. I have some doubts about the mana control thing though, since Hayate still can't use fast casting spells.. but then again, she's probably just that overpowered for smaller spells...

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As for devices, we've established that a mage can use two, the question is why not? Personal preference could account for it, but personally if one device can do everything I need, why do I need a second? A spare?

One gun isn't that expensive, but equipping your entire force with two guns each can be a bit pricey.
True. When you have a "Swiss army"-like intelligent device, bringing two of them is probably overkill.
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Old 2010-08-05, 14:30   Link #29
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There are also devices like Cross Mirage, which, while being two pistols for the most part, is considered a single Device.

Basically, what I wanted to know when I brought up the subject in the Q&A is whether or not a mage would suffer consequences, be it physical, mental, or magical, should he try to use two separate Intelligent Devices at once.
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Old 2010-08-05, 14:37   Link #30
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There are also devices like Cross Mirage, which, while being two pistols for the most part, is considered a single Device.

Basically, what I wanted to know when I brought up the subject in the Q&A is whether or not a mage would suffer consequences, be it physical, mental, or magical, should he try to use two separate Intelligent Devices at once.
For the most part, we don't know for sure. My logical conclusion is that it probably depends on mage, and how well the devices are built/tuned. I mean, a human can hold a handgun in each hand and use them both, but it depends upon person as to whether they can use both well.

If built well, the devices shouldn't strain, but help out.

Now, if you're talking about Nanoha picking Bardiche up and using that in the midst of battle along with Raging Heart, that would be interesting. Bardiche may be tuned more towards Fate, and thus Nanoha probably couldn't use it as well as Fate, but she technically might get some use out of it. On the other hand, she might not bother because she can use RH to great effect already. Simple more hassle to pick up another device.

So you'd have to clarify whether the second device would be built/tuned for the mage, or whether you have them picking something up on the fly.
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Old 2010-08-05, 14:46   Link #31
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The latter, I suppose. Say, the second Device doesn't belong to him/her, but is amiable to work with them due to circumstances or the like (such as a disabled or killed partner).
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Old 2010-08-05, 14:51   Link #32
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The latter, I suppose. Say, the second Device doesn't belong to him/her, but is amiable to work with them due to circumstances or the like (such as a disabled or killed partner).
One question: If the one who was given another device still has their own, why would they use both?

Of course, if some unforeseen circumstances forces one to wield an unfamiliar ID, I reckon they still wouldn't use them unless necessary because they're not used to it. Imagine a trained swordsman suddenly having to use a spear...
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Old 2010-08-05, 14:53   Link #33
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Well, its plot armor at that point, it can if its useful to the story and it doesn't as it pertains to the story. if you mean it needs to be attached to a certain blood type, then again thats a made up fact thats not stated in cannon.

right, it may just be unwieldy being treated as completely foreign (untrained) weapon/device. I imagine that can be reconciled as the story progresses.
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Old 2010-08-05, 14:57   Link #34
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Well the way I figure it, using two Intelligent Devices would allow a mage to either lay down a lot of spells in a short period of time, thanks to the processing power of two different spell-use Devices working together, or possibly allowing the mage to use spells much, much faster (like two computers working together on a single task).

But I figured something like that couldn't happen without some sort of price being paid, and we already know that overused magic can be dangerous.
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Old 2010-08-05, 14:58   Link #35
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Well, from what Linith said in the Sound stages, she had to get lots of parts and stuff for them, so... *Shrugs*
*goes to re-read sound stages* Hmm, yeah 'a lot of money' makes it pretty clear it isn't cheap. Still, how much money is never explained, and again with people handing them out willy nilly to friends that means the cost can't be astronomical.

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As for Lutecia, well, her mother was a former Bureau member, she could call in a few favors for parts for her daughter, don't you think?
Hmyeah, though that hardly is a solid explanation, nor ends the list of growing examples. Take Thoma for example, Subaru gave a kid an intelligent device. If the darn things are expensive enough that the TSAB can only sparely issue them to its own troops, why can they issue parts or whole devices to kids serving sentences and orphans?

I really don't think cost is the reason most troops don't use them.

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St. Hilde seems like one of those prestigious schools, so them having nicer pocket money than your average ten-year olds is not that surprising.
A rather big assumption, especially since miss living alone Einhart Stratos goes to the same school.

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Besides, the Terminator Effect argument kinda falls apart when you consider that most ID we see never even come close to rebelling...
We haven't seen a nuclear apocalypse either, doesn't stop people getting nervous about it though. Yes, yes, extreme example but it makes my point: Just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't. That's what paranoia is pretty much build on.

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Basically, what I wanted to know when I brought up the subject in the Q&A is whether or not a mage would suffer consequences, be it physical, mental, or magical, should he try to use two separate Intelligent Devices at once.
There shouldn't be. We know handling multiple devices is possible, we have a growing list of examples of that, and intelligence can be adjusted to compliment one another rather than conflict.
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Old 2010-08-05, 15:26   Link #36
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*goes to re-read sound stages* Hmm, yeah 'a lot of money' makes it pretty clear it isn't cheap. Still, how much money is never explained, and again with people handing them out willy nilly to friends that means the cost can't be astronomical.

Hmyeah, though that hardly is a solid explanation, nor ends the list of growing examples. Take Thoma for example, Subaru gave a kid an intelligent device. If the darn things are expensive enough that the TSAB can only sparely issue them to its own troops, why can they issue parts or whole devices to kids serving sentences and orphans?

I really don't think cost is the reason most troops don't use them.
Mind you, Subaru also has military connections. Also, Steed's a sentient camera, so there's no money spent on weapon features.

Look, I respect your theory, but I won't go around dismissing the cost theory. Afterall, one custom ID may not seem to cost much, but arming an entire army is a different issue altogether; you'll want to cut corners anywhere you can. Why give ID's to low-powered grunts? What are they gonna use the Intelligence for? If they prove themselves to be somewhat special, then we'll give them something more.
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Old 2010-08-05, 15:28   Link #37
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Steed does, however, aid Thoma in the use of Mid-Childa style magic, and therefore has the potential to be a weapon. Look at Raising Heart: no true weapon systems on it, unlike Bardiche, but arguably one of the most powerful weapons in the series because it aids Nanoha with her magic.
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Old 2010-08-05, 15:31   Link #38
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Well, Steed isn't the sort of I.D. that is useful for much (it seems like) outside of support and picture taking.

Price has to be considered...

But I think the biggest thing is probably the fact that not all I.D.s like their users. Take Raising Heart and Yuuno for example. Raising Heart worked for him, but it preferred Nanoha, since she wanted to make things "go boom now".

And we saw Bardiche and Raising Heart both go "not going to work, nope, not going to work, give us cartridges. We got our butts kicked because of cartridges, we want cartridges too! Give us shiny bullet power!"

And Armed Devices are more suited for Belka-style magic than Mid-style magic.
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Old 2010-08-05, 15:49   Link #39
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Mind you, Subaru also has military connections. Also, Steed's a sentient camera, so there's no money spent on weapon features.

Look, I respect your theory, but I won't go around dismissing the cost theory. Afterall, one custom ID may not seem to cost much, but arming an entire army is a different issue altogether; you'll want to cut corners anywhere you can. Why give ID's to low-powered grunts? What are they gonna use the Intelligence for? If they prove themselves to be somewhat special, then we'll give them something more.
I'm not saying my theory is fact either -though I vaguely recall reading something of the sort, but I think that's just my memory playing tricks on me- but the point is, if the only reason the kids with ID's have them is because their parents have contacts in the TSAB, then that means the TSAB can afford to spend such money on civilians. Kids, even. If they have the surplus, they could equip their own troops. They don't, so if they don't equip their own troops despite having enough money to pass them out to kids, something else must be the reason they don't.

Like you said, if money is an issue you'll want to cut corners anywhere you can, and random orphanage kids or 'friends of a colleague's daughter' would be among the first corners to cut.

Nanya raised another good point: ID's are basically unison devices (in fact, I recall unison devices directly being called 'the design idealogy of the Midchildan Intelligent Device to extremes' in the A's booklet) and we know of the lovely term called “Unison accident.” ID's, being sentient, could pretty much experience the same compatibility issues -albeit with less extreme results- resulting in the plain old 'pull the trigger for it to work' devices being preferred.
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Old 2010-08-05, 16:09   Link #40
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Like you said, if money is an issue you'll want to cut corners anywhere you can, and random orphanage kids or 'friends of a colleague's daughter' would be among the first corners to cut.
Normally yes. Fortunately your father is a Major and you're in good relations with a Colonel. Yes, I'm implying nepotism, it's not that unusual in Japanese culture (yes, I know Mid-Childa isn't Japanese, but the social norm the writers are familiar with is)

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Nanya raised another good point: ID's are basically unison devices (in fact, I recall unison devices directly being called 'the design idealogy of the Midchildan Intelligent Device to extremes' in the A's booklet) and we know of the lovely term called “Unison accident.” ID's, being sentient, could pretty much experience the same compatibility issues -albeit with less extreme results- resulting in the plain old 'pull the trigger for it to work' devices being preferred.
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Price has to be considered...

But I think the biggest thing is probably the fact that not all I.D.s like their users. Take Raising Heart and Yuuno for example. Raising Heart worked for him, but it preferred Nanoha, since she wanted to make things "go boom now".

And we saw Bardiche and Raising Heart both go "not going to work, nope, not going to work, give us cartridges. We got our butts kicked because of cartridges, we want cartridges too! Give us shiny bullet power!"
I'm starting to buy the "Yuuno found RH in one of his digs" theory. Why else would he got something not compatible with him?

I'm also starting to think that ID's probably take more time to make and since it must be designed to fit with the users specialization, the reason TSAB doesn't give its grunts ID's is that it's just not worth the time and effort; most of them doesn't have advanced magic skill anyway. like I said before, what would low-level grunts use the Intelligence for, anyway? It's not like they have that much magic power to require special multitasking anyway...

Also, nepotism.

PS: What's a unison accident?
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