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Old 2010-08-06, 17:05   Link #4261
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Nihilartikel View Post
I actually expected Battler or Beato to play that card at some point when I first read this episode: "Since you are officially not the detective now, I guess you won't mind if I use you as a victim. Try winning the game without a piece to call your own, you haughty b*tch."
I thought we were going to find Erika's body with 16 stab wounds in it! (I was already prepared for the 16 person count, thanks to EP1-5 reds.) It would've been so cool if she died this way, but I guess it wouldn't fit unless Battler became evil or something...

EDIT: Oops... I'm half a page back again...
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Old 2010-08-06, 17:09   Link #4262
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Strictly speaking Chronotrig is right.
She didn't say so, but why would they mention the weather, and especially why would she have put on her swimsuit, to put seals inside?
Swimsuit

These theories make a lot less sense then accepting what we're being told as true.
Well, Lambda is saying "don't tell me you __?", so that hardly counts as a confirmation. If anything, I think she's trying to throw Battler off the scent, make him assume something that's wrong. Also, Erika only says that she has her swimsuit, not that she actually used it. Since it fits the situation to have them messing with Battler's head, I don't think it would be in any way unfair.
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Old 2010-08-06, 17:12   Link #4263
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
No that simply won't explain anything. Not believing anything about Erika doesn't explain anything, it just removes the question that anything has to be explained.
So you arbitrarily decide when what Erika says is true and when it's false?

Like: "hey this thing that Erika did totally confirms my theory so it must be true, but this other part is bothersome, so let's just say it's a lie!"

That's basically what people are doing here.

Erika talks with Dlanor: Erika falsifies her pov

Erika acts all angry and forgets why she entered the guestroom in the first place: It's what it was shown there's no reason to doubt it.


Sorry but I don't think this is a valid approach.
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Old 2010-08-06, 17:22   Link #4264
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So you arbitrarily decide when what Erika says is true and when it's false?

Like: "hey this thing that Erika did totally confirms my theory so it must be true, but this other part is bothersome, so let's just say it's a lie!"

That's basically what people are doing here.

Erika talks with Dlanor: Erika falsifies her pov

Erika acts all angry and forgets why she entered the guestroom in the first place: It's what it was shown there's no reason to doubt it.


Sorry but I don't think this is a valid approach.
Now who decides what is true or not arbitrarily. Erika spoke to Dlanor enough in arc 5 yet she has the detective POV. She even wastes time hitting Cornelia over and over. Deciding that everything Erika says or do is fake because she sometimes see things that cannot be real, in extention, applies to everyone. However you chose arbitrarily that everything about her in arc 6 is a lie because some of the things she sees have to be lies.
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Old 2010-08-06, 17:33   Link #4265
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I thought it was... kinda like what Beatrice did in the first 4 episodes. Erika is allowed to create an illusion of her own surrounding her actions (remember the thing in ep6 about her being able to get authority even without red truth).
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Old 2010-08-06, 17:36   Link #4266
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So you arbitrarily decide when what Erika says is true and when it's false?

Like: "hey this thing that Erika did totally confirms my theory so it must be true, but this other part is bothersome, so let's just say it's a lie!"

That's basically what people are doing here.

Erika talks with Dlanor: Erika falsifies her pov

Erika acts all angry and forgets why she entered the guestroom in the first place: It's what it was shown there's no reason to doubt it.


Sorry but I don't think this is a valid approach.
By that logic you get: "Everyone except Battler sees magic at some point in time. Thus we discard all viewpoints that are not EP1-4 Battler."

Even so, let's go with it. She's falsifying her PoV in the bathroom.

Erika takes a long time in the bathroom because she hopes to let Battler leave the room by breaking the chain, so she can then blame all the murders on him. She has just killed five people. She needs a scapegoat, or else she'll be torn apart by everyone else. To this end, she gives him time to escape.
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Old 2010-08-06, 17:44   Link #4267
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Now who decides what is true or not arbitrarily. Erika spoke to Dlanor enough in arc 5 yet she has the detective POV. She even wastes time hitting Cornelia over and over. Deciding that everything Erika says or do is fake because she sometimes see things that cannot be real, in extention, applies to everyone. However you chose arbitrarily that everything about her in arc 6 is a lie because some of the things she sees have to be lies.
It's a matter of logic consistency. A source it's either reliable or not reliable, there isn't such a thing as something with variable reliability.

By the time you say that Erika's pov is not reliable you lose any right to show anything from Erika's pov and claim it proves your point.


And in the end those who claim that there is a realistic explanation for EP5-6 are claiming that Erika's behavior is fake a lot more than I do. So I find it extremely hypocritical to point that rare case where it's convenient for them to think Erika's behavior is truthful and claim that I need to accept it.


@Pika

We are talking about realism here, this is not the usual battle of red and blue that totally disregard any common sense. The issue is to explain Erika's behavior in a way that make sense. And I fear your theory doesn't make any.

Logically speaking it was a lot better for Erika to find Battler and see him with her own eyes.
In addition if you theory was even slightly correct, Erika would have brought all the others with her. That way everyone would have seen with their own eyes that Battler was still alive and the others were dead. But the way it is... it's just Erika's word against Battler's. Please try to seriously use your logic for a moment.
In addition even disregarding these enormous plot holes, Erika would have rather sealed the door if that was really her objective. Certainly it was a lot more easier and secure to seal the door rather than fix the chainlock.
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Old 2010-08-06, 17:57   Link #4268
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It's a matter of logic consistency. A source it's either reliable or not reliable, there isn't such a thing as something with variable reliability.

By the time you say that Erika's pov is not reliable you lose any right to show anything from Erika's pov and claim it proves your point.
With that kind of reasoning it must be easy to explain anything, since no one even Battler's pov has any worth of reliability by your argument.

Quote:
And in the end those who claim that there is a realistic explanation for EP5-6 are claiming that Erika's behavior is fake a lot more than I do. So I find it extremely hypocritical to point that rare case where it's convenient for them to think Erika's behavior is truthful and claim that I need to accept it.
I am part of those that believe there is no realistic explanation for ep 5-6, which is exactly why I have no reason to believe Erika is lying. There's nothing that makes sense about her killing the five others by severing their heads, but she did so, and yet I don't question if it's a lie or not. If you believe there's no realistic explanation for ep 5-6, why does she have to lie about anything?
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Old 2010-08-06, 18:01   Link #4269
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And in the end those who claim that there is a realistic explanation for EP5-6 are claiming that Erika's behavior is fake a lot more than I do. So I find it extremely hypocritical to point that rare case where it's convenient for them to think Erika's behavior is truthful and claim that I need to accept it.
So what's your argument against it again? From what I gather, you're saying "It makes no sense for Erika to go into the bathroom, yet she did go into the bathroom. Her view presents a reason, but this cannot be the reason, because her view is false, therefore EP6 makes no sense." (feel free to correct me though)

Yet I've provided a solution where the burns scenario is falsified, and the anger at being burnt still fits, so there's no reason to object to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I am part of those that believe there is no realistic explanation for ep 5-6, which is exactly why I have no reason to believe Erika is lying. There's nothing that makes sense about her killing the five others by severing their heads, but she did so, and yet I don't question if it's a lie or not. If you believe there's no realistic explanation for ep 5-6, why does she have to lie about anything?
It's easy to explain that. Erika knows about the bomb plot, and is resigned to dying. However she decides to have some fun as 'the detective' first, by trying to pin the murders on Battler. Or even Erika is mentally unstable, so her actions appear logical to her.

I believe EP6 isn't broken, because it has Battler as the GM, and he cares about the board. In other words, there is love in the game. EP5 is a far bigger trainwreck. Faked deaths, red on the gameboard, red used in Natsuhi's thoughts, everyone obeying a guest unthinkingly, Battler helping the illusion, the man from 19 years ago, and even an 18th person. But I still have hope for the 5th game, because of the knock. That knock implies that there is still a mystery unsolved in EP5, and that the rest of it can be explained away.

Last edited by Pika_power; 2010-08-06 at 18:15.
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Old 2010-08-06, 19:37   Link #4270
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Originally Posted by Pika_power View Post
It's easy to explain that. Erika knows about the bomb plot, and is resigned to dying. However she decides to have some fun as 'the detective' first, by trying to pin the murders on Battler. Or even Erika is mentally unstable, so her actions appear logical to her.
Um... Knox's 8th? Erika has no reason to know about this unless she was the culprit behind it. And don't tell me she just heard about it or she's using meta knowledge because both of those ideas are completely stupid. Erika doesn't even show signs she's aware of this in the meta world let alone the gameboard. It sounds like your just using something that happens to explain what she does, which doesn't work either. I'd say that might fail the test for Knox's 6th as well.

I don't beleive Erika's character is "mentally unstable" either. She's just very prideful, meticulous, and self righteous.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-08-06 at 19:53.
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Old 2010-08-06, 19:58   Link #4271
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
With that kind of reasoning it must be easy to explain anything, since no one even Battler's pov has any worth of reliability by your argument.

I am part of those that believe there is no realistic explanation for ep 5-6, which is exactly why I have no reason to believe Erika is lying. There's nothing that makes sense about her killing the five others by severing their heads, but she did so, and yet I don't question if it's a lie or not. If you believe there's no realistic explanation for ep 5-6, why does she have to lie about anything?
I think you got it all wrong about me.

I actually believe that battler's POV was reliable in EP1-4 and I refuse to believe that practically everything we see about Erika is just a lie.

But about Erika going in the bathroom if you accept that she acts under a metaworld superior knowledge she simply did that because she wanted Battler to fall in the logic error. And therefore that scene where you see Erika being all worried about the shower really happened in the gameboard but Erika was just pretending. Of course the one she wanted to fool was MetaBattler.
It's all easy to explain if you just accept there isn't a realistic explanation for Erika's behavior.

But there are guys who think it can be explained realistically, and I think okay explain it "realistically", but all I get are theories that barely try to be actually realistic.

Quote:
So what's your argument against it again? From what I gather, you're saying "It makes no sense for Erika to go into the bathroom, yet she did go into the bathroom. Her view presents a reason, but this cannot be the reason, because her view is false, therefore EP6 makes no sense."
I don't have the slightest idea how you reached that conclusion.

It is you that want to put it in a way that doesn't make sense. Just accept that this gameboard is fictional world and Erika doesn't care about the rules and does metagaming all the time and it all makes perfect sense.

But because you and some other people do not want to accept this, you come up with wacky theories that only create tons of plot holes.
If you don't like the author theory because you prefer to think that the gameboard is a real thing, then show me a theory that really is realistic.

It just makes no sense to refuse "X" because it isn't real enough only to go to "Y" which is even less realistic.

That's basically my point. Every attempt to find a way to explain how the gameboard can be a realistic world unaffected by the metaworld has only the effect of making it even more unrealistic.
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Old 2010-08-06, 20:13   Link #4272
Pika_power
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I don't beleive Erika's character is "mentally unstable" either. She's just very prideful, meticulous, and self righteous.
I present the Guesthouse conversation with Dlanor as evidence to satisfy Knox's 8th. Not only does she converse with a non-existent being, she declares love for it, then has a mental breakdown before forcing the non-existent being to take the losing side in a battle of logic. She is shown to consider herself to be in communications with a great witch (which do not exist) and has been shown to take illogical actions such as fixing up a bathroom prank when her objective is to reveal Battler.

Oh, and she kills and decapitates five people for discernible reason.

Thus I conclude that Piece-Erika is mentally unstable.
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Old 2010-08-06, 20:45   Link #4273
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I think you got it all wrong about me.
I guess it does seems so.

Quote:
I actually believe that battler's POV was reliable in EP1-4 and I refuse to believe that practically everything we see about Erika is just a lie.

But about Erika going in the bathroom if you accept that she acts under a metaworld superior knowledge she simply did that because she wanted Battler to fall in the logic error. And therefore that scene where you see Erika being all worried about the shower really happened in the gameboard but Erika was just pretending. Of course the one she wanted to fool was MetaBattler.
It's all easy to explain if you just accept there isn't a realistic explanation for Erika's behavior.
Well you mean, an explanation for Erika's actions that only relies on gameboard knowledge. There is an explanation, you gave it yourself, she did these things for meta-reasons. I fully agree with that.


Quote:
But there are guys who think it can be explained realistically, and I think okay explain it "realistically", but all I get are theories that barely try to be actually realistic.
Ah, for that I just think basically that there is a difference between acting for no reasons and acting for not a good reason. Erika acts for meta-reason, which on the gameboard is "not a good reason". As thus I think that a theory to explain arc 6 doesn't have to make much sense, especially concerning character's behaviors. Of course, if the theory pretends to actually make realistic sense, then no, it doesn't. Still I think it's not a bad thing to take the events of the arc and make as much sense out of them as possible. The moment you try to give a gameboard reason for Erika's behavior however, you lose. What I will not accept is a theory about arc 6 that makes less sense then what is presented to us (such as meta-tape, stackable rooms or Erika moron theories).
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Old 2010-08-06, 20:49   Link #4274
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Originally Posted by Pika_power View Post
I present the Guesthouse conversation with Dlanor as evidence to satisfy Knox's 8th. Not only does she converse with a non-existent being, she declares love for it, then has a mental breakdown before forcing the non-existent being to take the losing side in a battle of logic.
I hope you realize how wrong these first three sentences are. This was a scene about her cheating boyfriend, giving Erika her back story, it was not directed at Dlanor personally. your argument is the only thing here that's unstable.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-08-06 at 21:03.
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Old 2010-08-06, 21:05   Link #4275
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First of all,you must be aware that Erika is the detective in those games.

Just because her existence is false,does not mean what she says is false.

What if she see's Dlanor?Then that's fake.It's just that simple.

How can we chose whether something Erika did or said is real or false?

Obviously,just from it being read,it will be completely unreasonable.
If Erika were to say
''Where I used to live,there was a girl who called me a bitch,and I punched her in the face and slammed her head on the floor and made her regret her words'',I would have no reason at all to deny this,because it fits with her character,and there is no evidence at all denying it.

HOWEVER,if Erika told everyone
''When I drifted on this island,I saw a person and yelled at it to help me,because I was in pain and lonely'',I would seriously doubt this,simply because
1.She was found unconscious due to drowning
2.Because she was in pain and in lonely?Well that's completely out of character.
I'd beleive it more if she said she was frustrated after suffocating,and needed some assistance.

You cannot just assume everything Erika says and does is just a lie,because then there would be no reason for her to be there.And by that,I don't mean from a meta world perspective,I mean from the Author himself.If I made a story,I would not at all make the main character of that chapter be one who falsifies all actions and words.
It has no logic.

That's like saying everything Suit!Beato says and does is a lie and should not be taken in account,because she can summon goats & stakes.That's like saying everything Evatrice says is a lie because she summons siestas.
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Old 2010-08-06, 21:17   Link #4276
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Also,I'm sure you can make realistic sense out of EP6.

To explain why she didn't just get everyone and say ''I found Battler,he's the culprit,boom'',I think I can explain that easily.

1.Why would they trust the uninvited guest?
2.She has no evidence?
3.Family is obviously on Battlers side.


If she knew he was in there to frame him,why would she put any seals?It wouldn't work well for her,or Battler,simply because

1.If she set them,and then got the family to go,the seals will still be set,and Eva and Kyrie would obviously ask
Kyrie:''If he killed everyone,then why aren't the seals broken?''
Eva:''And you were gone for so long,how would we know if the culprit wasn't miss detective herself?''

2.If she set them,opened them and then came to Battler,she would have to explain why Battler would still be in the room,if the seals were broken.It would be a huge fail on her part.


Long Story short,you can trust when there is no reason to doubt,and Erika did not reveal Battler out in the open because it wouldn't make sense on her part,due to her seals,since she's the one who put them,and broke them.So it would only make sense to let Battler escape so that she could pin it on him when they found him,and use the closed room chain trick,to further provide evidence,and find him in another room hiding.The family would have no reason to doubt Erika,but even though...I don't really believe the family would believe her so easily..but then ''Erika'' would probably say
Erika:''Obviously,the only one who could have killed them was one of the ones who knew it was a prank itself!You guys were sealed,and the only one left alive of the fakes is Battler,the culprit.''
Right?
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Old 2010-08-06, 21:22   Link #4277
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Reading that now I want to read/write an episode 6 where the logic error never happened. Just to see how it would work.
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Old 2010-08-06, 21:27   Link #4278
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Wow.That's exactly what I thought after re reading my post.
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Old 2010-08-06, 21:51   Link #4279
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I guess it does seems so.

Well you mean, an explanation for Erika's actions that only relies on gameboard knowledge. There is an explanation, you gave it yourself, she did these things for meta-reasons. I fully agree with that.

Ah, for that I just think basically that there is a difference between acting for no reasons and acting for not a good reason. Erika acts for meta-reason, which on the gameboard is "not a good reason". As thus I think that a theory to explain arc 6 doesn't have to make much sense, especially concerning character's behaviors. Of course, if the theory pretends to actually make realistic sense, then no, it doesn't. Still I think it's not a bad thing to take the events of the arc and make as much sense out of them as possible. The moment you try to give a gameboard reason for Erika's behavior however, you lose. What I will not accept is a theory about arc 6 that makes less sense then what is presented to us (such as meta-tape, stackable rooms or Erika moron theories).
As soon as you think the game cannot be explained on realistic terms, I think you have failed and have been deceived by all of the magic.

Believing that Erika climbed around on the outside of the building and put duct tape everywhere makes significantly less sense than all of that being part of the meta-game. The reason those things are accepted as true in the meta-game is that something similar, but not quite happened in the real world, just like all of the other magic scenes we have seen so far.

Add on the fact that Battler has no reason to stay in the room he played dead in and you have a pretty good argument that he may have actually been trapped in the room.

If you attribute Erika's actions to another person or group of people, you can make plenty of sense out of them. Given, you have to separate out the parts that are specific to the meta-game and the parts that are in the real world.
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Old 2010-08-07, 01:49   Link #4280
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That's basically my point. Every attempt to find a way to explain how the gameboard can be a realistic world unaffected by the metaworld has only the effect of making it even more unrealistic.
You're defining unrealistic in an incredibly arbitrary way.

We cannot argue that Erika is acting without meta-world knowledge because inevitably you'll just say "But she has meta-world knowledge because she talked to Dlanor.", or "But she can't have taken this action without meta-world knowledge because she knows the seals are unbroken even if she's nowhere near them."

Things make sense as long as you accept that Erika in all situations either A: DOES NOT EXIST, or B:Is simply a metaphor or representation of the actions of another character.

The only reason that inconsistencies appear here is because you are attributing Erika's personality, conversations and motivations to the character(s) she represents. It has already been stated that on all gameboards the same number of people exist and on all gameboards that is 17 people, Erika is the 18th person therefore she does not exist.

All meta is a metaphor for something else. This includes Erika.
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