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Old 2004-09-20, 11:33   Link #21
BrownRukus
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so basically reading all the posts


Mangekyou Sharingan hypnotizes the user then Tsukiyomi is used.

IF that is correct, then Tsukiyomi can't be used like that?
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Old 2004-09-20, 11:38   Link #22
Animizzle
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Originally Posted by BrownRukus
so basically reading all the posts


Mangekyou Sharingan hypnotizes the user then Tsukiyomi is used.

IF that is correct, then Tsukiyomi can't be used like that?
er...read the post above yours more thourougly.

Tsukiyomu hypnotizes the victim when the user is in the Mangekyou state

so no, the Tsukiyomi cannot be used like that.
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Old 2004-09-20, 11:42   Link #23
BrownRukus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animizzle
er...read the post above yours more thourougly.

Tsukiyomu hypnotizes the victim when the user is in the Mangekyou state

so no, the Tsukiyomi cannot be used like that.

Yes this i what i don't understand, what is this Mangekyou State?
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Old 2004-09-20, 11:47   Link #24
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Originally Posted by BrownRukus
Yes this i what i don't understand, what is this Mangekyou State?
Spoiler:
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Old 2004-09-20, 11:51   Link #25
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Arg Animizzle spoiler tag :/
edit : that was fast
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Old 2004-09-20, 11:56   Link #26
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Anyway Hunter, now im confused...

Spoiler:
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Old 2004-09-20, 12:01   Link #27
BrownRukus
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Ok, the Mangekyou state what does it do to the user?

Like am trying to understand how the Mange + Tsukiyoumi are used.

And when Itachi vs Kakashi, when Itachi open his eyes, Kakashi tells Asuma and Kunerai(sp?) to close their eyes or they are dead why?
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Old 2004-09-20, 12:05   Link #28
Animizzle
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Originally Posted by BrownRukus
Ok, the Mangekyou state what does it do to the user?

Like am trying to understand how the Mange + Tsukiyoumi are used.

And when Itachi vs Kakashi, when Itachi open his eyes, Kakashi tells Asuma and Kunerai(sp?) to close their eyes or they are dead why?
Well..if they dind't close their eyes. Itachi would have used the Tsukiyoumi on them too. And since they are no Sharingan users. It could have resulted in death.
The strain form the illusion is stronger on a non-sharingan user.

And once again, The mangekyou state allows the user to perform Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu and maybe other attack we do not know of.
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Old 2004-09-20, 12:08   Link #29
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Originally Posted by Animizzle
Well..if they dind't close their eyes. Itachi would have used the Tsukiyoumi on them too. And since they are no Sharingan users. It could have resulted in death.
The strain form the illusion is stronger on a non-sharingan user.

And once again, The mangekyou state allows the user to perform Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu and maybe other attack we do not know of.
Ok i understand now, Thank You Animizzle
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Old 2004-09-20, 12:13   Link #30
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Originally Posted by Animizzle
Anyway Hunter, now im confused...

Spoiler:
Spoiler:


But Itachi explanation made clear already the difference between the Tsukiyomi and the Mangekyou, the Tsukiyomi being the jutsu that Itachi used whereas the Mangekyou is the 'true' (rather the extent) bloodline's limit of the Uchiha.

Hmm some pics...
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Old 2004-09-20, 14:12   Link #31
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^
l l
l l
l l
l l
l l

Definitely.. when I saw that for the first time it creeped me out.. even more than Oro's eyes do
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Old 2004-09-20, 23:32   Link #32
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yea theyre sorta creepy
But then the person under Tsukyomi see the pic which is my avatar
<---------- Tsukyomi to the person its being used on when kalediscope effect happens
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Old 2004-09-21, 00:23   Link #33
VMLM3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
I think you're somewhat lost in the different term VMLM3

The Tsukiyomi is the name of the jutsu, the Mangekyou Sharingan is the name of the state of the Sharingan needed to use such jutsu and it's Itachi who hypnotizes the people.

I don't understand your point about Sasuke : Itachi did used the Tsukiyomi against him.

Now indeed the Tsukiyomi isn't the only Genjutsu that a Sharingan or worse a Mangekyou Sharingan user could use but probably the most powerful one.
hmm In the anime atleast Itachi uses only the mangekyou against Sasuke, maybe that changes in the manga, I started reading at about chapter 200 and I never got around to reading the ones before that.
I think I just explained myself wrong. The Sharingan grants Itachi the ability to hypnotize people, Mangekyou form further enhances his abilities, allowing him to perform Tsukiyomi, which in turn let's Itachi 'create' (not really create, more like make believe) a world for his victim where for a very small time he is god. So Tsukiyomi itself isn't what Itachi uses to hypnotize his victim, rather the Mangekyou Sharingan... which was the point I was trying to make...
Now if that's wrong then I do infact have to go check up on some back issues of the manga...
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Old 2004-09-21, 02:21   Link #34
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Originally Posted by Hunter
But Itachi explanation made clear already the difference between the Tsukiyomi and the Mangekyou, the Tsukiyomi being the jutsu that Itachi used whereas the Mangekyou is the 'true' (rather the extent) bloodline's limit of the Uchiha.
Kind of right, kind of wrong, depending on the point you're trying to make.

Tsukiyomi, which might not even be the correct spelling, is a jutsu that the Mangekyo Sharingan can perform. It's a jutsu the Mangekyo Sharingan has. They really aren't different things, per se.

And about the differences between the Mangekyo Sharingan in the manga and the Mangekyo Sharingan in the anime... The anime wasn't trying to get the point across that Tsukiyomi and the Mangekyo Sharingan are different things, it's simply an error made by the animation team. In the manga, the eyes weren't shown during the process of Tsukiyomi and Amaretsu or whatever (definitely incorrect spelling) until around chapter 224.
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Old 2004-09-21, 02:42   Link #35
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Originally Posted by Tautou
Tsukiyomi, which might not even be the correct spelling, is a jutsu that the Mangekyo Sharingan can perform. It's a jutsu the Mangekyo Sharingan has. They really aren't different things, per se.
Yes they are...The mangekyo Sharingan is the true bloodline limit of the Uchiha clan. It can do things a regular Sharingan cannot do. In order to use the Tsukiyomi the user must have the Mangekyou first! So the Tsukiyomi is the attack and the Mangekyou is merely a "form" if you will, wich enables the use of the Tsukiyomi and the Amaretasu.

God How many times does it need to get spelled out on this page.

Quote:
And about the differences between the Mangekyo Sharingan in the manga and the Mangekyo Sharingan in the anime... The anime wasn't trying to get the point across that Tsukiyomi and the Mangekyo Sharingan are different things, it's simply an error made by the animation team. In the manga, the eyes weren't shown during the process of Tsukiyomi and Amaretsu or whatever (definitely incorrect spelling) until around chapter 224
Your most probably right,

Spoiler:
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Old 2004-09-21, 02:55   Link #36
Tautou
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Originally Posted by Animizzle
Yes they are...The mangekyo Sharingan is the true bloodline limit of the Uchiha clan. It can do things a regular Sharingan cannot do. In order to use the Tsukiyomi the user must have the Mangekyou first! So the Tsukiyomi is the attack and the Mangekyou is merely a "form" if you will, wich enables the use of the Tsukiyomi and the Amaretasu.
No kidding, that's exactly what I said. Notice how my last paragraph is about how the fact that the anime didn't show the Mangekyo Sharingan doesn't mean anything? I said what I said not completely understanding the other dude's argument, and assuming that somewhere there he was pointing out that the Tsukiyomi isn't an attack reserved for the Mangekyo Sharingan.

Edit: ...wait... I think I'm picking up on your point... Are you saying that Tsukiyomi isn't done through the Mangekyo Sharingan? Because Tsukiyomi is similar to the genjutsu that we've seen Kakashi and Itachi cast in the sense that it's done through the eye itself.

Itachi, "This eye has a special jutsu, Tsukiyomi..."

So...yes...the attack is done through the eye.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Animizzle
Your most probably right,

Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Old 2004-09-21, 09:26   Link #37
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Originally Posted by VMLM3
hmm In the anime atleast Itachi uses only the mangekyou against Sasuke, maybe that changes in the manga, I started reading at about chapter 200 and I never got around to reading the ones before that.
No Itachi used it against Kakashi and against Sasuke both in the past and the present.

The difference is that the manga never showed the eyes at this point but merely the sound effect of a change in Itachi's eyes whereas the anime team made the mistake to show them.

Quote:
So Tsukiyomi itself isn't what Itachi uses to hypnotize his victim, rather the Mangekyou Sharingan... which was the point I was trying to make...
Now if that's wrong then I do infact have to go check up on some back issues of the manga...
No, as the Sharingan doesn't hypnotize but allows to cast Genjutsu against the opponent.
Once again the Tsukiyomi is the Genjutsu, ie it's the illusion technique.
And the Mangekyou is the bloodline limit allowing to use such jutsu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tautou
Kind of right, kind of wrong, depending on the point you're trying to make.

Tsukiyomi, which might not even be the correct spelling, is a jutsu that the Mangekyo Sharingan can perform. It's a jutsu the Mangekyo Sharingan has. They really aren't different things, per se.
They're completely different things, it's like to say that chakra and jutsu are the same thing because you need one to do the other.

You can use the Mangekyo Sharingan and do another jutsu than the Tsukiyomi, the Amaterasu for example or something else.

And it's the same thing for the Sharingan, Kakashi used his Sharingan to cast a Genjutsu against Zabuza, that doesn't mean that the Sharingan and the Genjutsu are the same thing, just that the Genjutsu can be used thanks to the Sharingan.

Quote:
And about the differences between the Mangekyo Sharingan in the manga and the Mangekyo Sharingan in the anime... The anime wasn't trying to get the point across that Tsukiyomi and the Mangekyo Sharingan are different things, it's simply an error made by the animation team. In the manga, the eyes weren't shown during the process of Tsukiyomi and Amaretsu or whatever (definitely incorrect spelling)
I know that thanks, it was even wrote in the post you quoted

I don't talk about what they shown, I talk about what Itachi said.
And it's precisely said that the Mangekyou Sharingan are the eyes, the true extent of the bloodline limit of the Uchiha whereas the Tsukiyomi is a special Genjutsu using these eyes.
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Old 2004-09-21, 10:12   Link #38
VMLM3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
No Itachi used it against Kakashi and against Sasuke both in the past and the present.

The difference is that the manga never showed the eyes at this point but merely the sound effect of a change in Itachi's eyes whereas the anime team made the mistake to show them.
Ok, so that's my mistake, however,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
No, as the Sharingan doesn't hypnotize but allows to cast Genjutsu against the opponent.
Once again the Tsukiyomi is the Genjutsu, ie it's the illusion technique.
And the Mangekyou is the bloodline limit allowing to use such jutsu.
I have a problem with that.. The way I understand it is that Genjutsu works in one of two ways:
a) You create a form of physical illusion which can't be interacted with. (example: normal Bunshin; Oboro Bunshin, used by the rain genin against team 7 and Kabuto in the Forest of Death)
b) Through hypnosis you suggest to your vicitm an illusion, which in a way can be interacted with but only by the person being hipnotized. (examples: Kakashi suggesting to Zabuza what technique to use, Itachi vs Kakashi,
Spoiler:
) This way it also makes sense that pain can dispel some of the weaker techniques.
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Old 2004-09-21, 12:52   Link #39
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Originally Posted by VMLM3
I have a problem with that.. The way I understand it is that Genjutsu works in one of two ways:
a) You create a form of physical illusion which can't be interacted with. (example: normal Bunshin; Oboro Bunshin, used by the rain genin against team 7 and Kabuto in the Forest of Death)
b) Through hypnosis you suggest to your vicitm an illusion, which in a way can be interacted with but only by the person being hipnotized. (examples: Kakashi suggesting to Zabuza what technique to use, Itachi vs Kakashi,
Spoiler:
) This way it also makes sense that pain can dispel some of the weaker techniques.
I don't get your point, it doesn't contradict what I said in any ways.

The Tsukiyomi is the jutsu causing the illusion and the Mangekyo Sharingan the Dojutsu allowing to use the Tsukiyomi, simple as that.
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Old 2004-09-21, 13:23   Link #40
VMLM3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
I don't get your point, it doesn't contradict what I said in any ways.

The Tsukiyomi is the jutsu causing the illusion and the Mangekyo Sharingan the Dojutsu allowing to use the Tsukiyomi, simple as that.
...I don't get it...
OK what I'm saying is the mangkyou sharingan enhances Itachi's hypnotic abilities, allowing him to perform Tsukiyumi...
In other words the Sharingan is what is being used to hypnotize, Tsukiyumi, the techique, is what is being done with the hypnotic abilities of the sharingan in mangekyou form..
I'm somewhat confused at this point, I seem to have lost my point somewhere between this post and the last post I made... I'm sure it's in there though...
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