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Old 2010-08-12, 02:43   Link #4461
k//eternal
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Is your claim that she doesn't exist entirely, or that she's an alias of someone else? There are already reds stating that she beheaded people and that they were alive until she killed them.
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Old 2010-08-12, 02:46   Link #4462
UsagiTenpura
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Personally I think Erika is a meta character with a specific piece, not any different from beatrice. Her specific piece is someone yes.

Moogleking and some others believes she's an amalgam of many people's feelings, and that the one who killed people/etc is one of these people.
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Old 2010-08-12, 03:01   Link #4463
k//eternal
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Well, I don't have anything against theories in which Erika is a bunch of people since I was pushing my "Erika ball" theory back in EP5, but it seems harder to explain EP6 with. Maybe some people have thought about it more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
They are faking dead for a similar reason as episode 5. In episode 5, they were clearly trying to get Natsuhi to confess about Kinzo.
In episode 6, however, Krauss and Natsuhi are in on it, and pretty much everybody is except for George, Jessica, and the servants (minus Gohda).
If Krauss and Natsuhi are in on it, what's the goal? It can't be the same, obviously.

Is Erika supposed to be a "real name" even though it belongs to a group? If not, who passes through the guest room door?
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Old 2010-08-12, 03:08   Link #4464
UsagiTenpura
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Well hmm suppose this non Shkanon theory.
Shannon is Beatrice. We know Beato was a big fan of mystery novel. It seems her personality was based on Jessica.
Erika is also a big fan of mystery novel, and her identity is something like what Natsuhi and Krauss wanted Jessica to be.
Beatrice gave up after arc 4, and then Erika appeared. Beatrice is usually the culprit, this time it's Erika (so the same person). I'm not saying this is true of arc 5, in arc 5 the culprit is whoever LD's piece is.
When they pull the trigger on Erika, Battler and Beato speaks as if it was also farewell for them.

Now in the fantasy scenes, we see a duel between Shannon and Kanon. Suppose Shannon is the killer/Erika, and went to get Battler, then Kanon arrived and they had their duel. Kanon died as the duel showed us. That way Kanon doesn't exist anymore, and it was shown to us.
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Old 2010-08-12, 03:26   Link #4465
k//eternal
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Probably needs some refinement, but it's something.

If Erika is Shannontrice and Beatrice was created to love Battler, isn't that... weird for her to try and kill him? And if she kills Kanon, why is she confused about his disappearance?
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Old 2010-08-12, 03:27   Link #4466
Pika_power
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Think I found a way out of arc 6 without relying on Shkanon.
I was thinking that Erika never mentioned herself, so by default she should also fall into the group "everyone else". The sequence of given red is this.
-Victims exists in their specific places
-Five specific people exists in the next room over
-Everyone else (so normally also Erika) exists in the cousin's room
-Both rooms are sealed

Far later on we are told
-When the next room over was sealed only the specific five people existed within it

But we are never told that about the cousin's room, and erika herself got out of it.
So a simple solution would be something like:
After Erika left the cousin's room she began to seal the doors of both rooms, and then the windows. We know she sealed the windows from outside since she mentions it herself. During the time it took do seal them Kanon left the room by the window. Everyone else could also have left the room during that time.
I can think of a way to interpret the seals which blocks this.

Seals on the windows are retroactively activated. Erika then seals the door manually, so no one escapes.
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Old 2010-08-12, 03:35   Link #4467
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As you said it's an interpretation. It's not like this was ever said to us, so you can't deny my point. I feel much more comfortable theorizing about holes in time then about naming nonsense. Holes in red's timing is something that has been there all along, and in arc 5 we have proof it was used. Naming nonsense to escape red so far is not guaranteed in any ways. Actually that you have to argue about how they could have been stuck inside is proof enough that that red isn't necessarily valid.

@ K//eternal
Erika is the "loveless" Beatrice born from her giving up on Battler, that's why she hates him - remember that she hates love. Her own pov is unreliable because she's not the detective, beside the red and her specific actions anything she sees or hears can be fake. It wouldn't pass if those Shannon/Kanon duel scenes weren't shown but since they were it satisfy knox 8th.
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Old 2010-08-12, 04:08   Link #4468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
As you said it's an interpretation. It's not like this was ever said to us, so you can't deny my point. I feel much more comfortable theorizing about holes in time then about naming nonsense. Holes in red's timing is something that has been there all along, and in arc 5 we have proof it was used. Naming nonsense to escape red so far is not guaranteed in any ways. Actually that you have to argue about how they could have been stuck inside is proof enough that that red isn't necessarily valid.
In terms of validity, I prefer your theory to all others. However I like it in the same way that I like the idea that the 17 people line means "there are no less than 17 people".

It nicely solves the problem, doesn't violate any red, and doesn't resort to red-bending ideas such as "Kinzo is a title, not a name" or "Erika doesn't exist". However it isn't a satisfying conclusion. If it were to be canon, I'd find it to be a lacklustre trick. (Admittedly, Shkanon would be a dirty trick too, but it'd be a complex answer worthy of the puzzle)

I guess I want a middle ground between the too-simple-to-be-true theories, and the Small-Bombs tier theories.
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Old 2010-08-12, 04:18   Link #4469
winter 923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
Probably needs some refinement, but it's something.

If Erika is Shannontrice and Beatrice was created to love Battler, isn't that... weird for her to try and kill him? And if she kills Kanon, why is she confused about his disappearance?
Well when does she try to kill him? she said she hadn't enough time to kill him and thus sealed his room. But as long as we don't believe in the ending scroll she didn't kill Battler. In fact she forced him to marry her in the meta world.
Her confused state about Kanons disappearance would be the 'Third degree concept denial' Erika existing as a cup in a cup and (the metaform) knowing about it makes as much sense as a Shkannon with DID.

It does rise the question what her history means. Other than any other flashback we don't really get to see a story but 'facts' i see that as 'Erika' can't trust even the one she loves because she can't destroy the possibility of cheating. A very rational thinking. This goes against anything we are shown before.
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Old 2010-08-12, 11:54   Link #4470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pika_power View Post
In terms of validity, I prefer your theory to all others. However I like it in the same way that I like the idea that the 17 people line means "there are no less than 17 people".

It nicely solves the problem, doesn't violate any red, and doesn't resort to red-bending ideas such as "Kinzo is a title, not a name" or "Erika doesn't exist". However it isn't a satisfying conclusion. If it were to be canon, I'd find it to be a lacklustre trick. (Admittedly, Shkanon would be a dirty trick too, but it'd be a complex answer worthy of the puzzle)

I guess I want a middle ground between the too-simple-to-be-true theories, and the Small-Bombs tier theories.
Perhaps seeing it in a bigger context can make it more acceptable?
This is the reason why in this case I like this theory more then Shkanon as an answer.
At least to me, that way it's a genius and very complex move.
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Old 2010-08-13, 10:16   Link #4471
gtr06
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Been a while, just posting my thoughts about EP6, Finally finished the main story. Maybe serious spoilers (predictions):

Spoiler for Umineko, Episode 6, all:


-They're just theories, they're probably riddled with holes and mistakes since its been so long since I've played the past games. I haven't read any other posts yet so I assume some of these if not all have already been mentioned.
-I've always believed in the "Kanon isn't K" theory since comparing the character data from the end of each game and subtle language used throughout the story.
-Love can make people do crazy things, but we can't see through their shoes without the same love.
-Otherwise, this whole game is just a tax fraud, much like Japan's centenarian mysteriously disappearing or having died decades ago, but their family still collecting their pensions. I mean isn't it creepy to have a 30 year old corpse in the room next to you...
(I've also yet to do the extra tea party scenario's in EP 6.)

Last edited by gtr06; 2010-08-13 at 10:52.
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Old 2010-08-13, 13:04   Link #4472
Degel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Personally I think Erika is a meta character with a specific piece, not any different from beatrice.
I would just only add that there's not only one piece that she uses, but several, because "she" is a representation of logic.
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Old 2010-08-13, 15:44   Link #4473
AC-Phoenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtr06 View Post
Been a while, just posting my thoughts about EP6, Finally finished the main story. Maybe serious spoilers (predictions):

Spoiler for Umineko, Episode 6, all:


-They're just theories, they're probably riddled with holes and mistakes since its been so long since I've played the past games. I haven't read any other posts yet so I assume some of these if not all have already been mentioned.
-I've always believed in the "Kanon isn't K" theory since comparing the character data from the end of each game and subtle language used throughout the story.
-Love can make people do crazy things, but we can't see through their shoes without the same love.
-Otherwise, this whole game is just a tax fraud, much like Japan's centenarian mysteriously disappearing or having died decades ago, but their family still collecting their pensions. I mean isn't it creepy to have a 30 year old corpse in the room next to you...
(I've also yet to do the extra tea party scenario's in EP 6.)
Well the biggest problem with that theory is that Maria, Rosa and Kyrie all claimed that she looked exactly like on the picture.
So technically only Jessica left... --> haircolor
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Old 2010-08-13, 15:52   Link #4474
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I've asked this a few times, but are hair colors of anyone but Beatrice ever mentioned in the text or even in supplementary sources? It would definitely be telling if Jessica's hair is actually blond as opposed to just being that color on the sprites for artistic purposes.
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Old 2010-08-13, 15:55   Link #4475
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I'm pretty sure that the haircolors of the normal humans are just for artistic purposes.
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Old 2010-08-13, 15:55   Link #4476
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I've asked this a few times, but are hair colors of anyone but Beatrice ever mentioned in the text or even in supplementary sources? It would definitely be telling if Jessica's hair is actually blond as opposed to just being that color on the sprites for artistic purposes.
When Beatrice's hair color was mentioned it was said that it was weird and most likely dyed. This suggests that Jessica's hair is indeed not blonde.
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Old 2010-08-13, 16:14   Link #4477
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it was said that it was weird and most likely dyed.


Which episode was that again? Not the first two for sure, I've just finished re-reading the second one and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't miss this
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Old 2010-08-13, 16:47   Link #4478
Marion
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When Beatrice's hair color was mentioned it was said that it was weird and most likely dyed. This suggests that Jessica's hair is indeed not blonde.
Well that's not necessarily true. First of all Beatrice is a magical character and is supposed to be a western witch. Someone from the west having blond hair isn't strange at all.

As for Jessica I think Natsuhi would have a heart attack if she saw her daughter was dying her hair.
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Old 2010-08-13, 19:20   Link #4479
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' If this woman had normal black hair, I might have thought it was a portrait of my long-deceased Grandmother in her prime. However, the woman in the portrait had beautiful blonde hair and didn't look Japanese at all'
Kinzo is japanese wich makes his hair most likely black do we know the race of his wife? She also had black hair (if she was western the genes could be in her). So whats with Krauss and all these hair colors? Artistic choice? In Higurashi we have green and blue girls, I don't think the Sonozaki's or the proud shrinemaiden would dye their hair.
In the same scene Jessica also mentions that Beatrice doesn't exist while Maria is right beside here, but it looks like she is too hungry to defend Beatrice.
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Old 2010-08-14, 00:34   Link #4480
AC-Phoenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winter 923 View Post
' If this woman had normal black hair, I might have thought it was a portrait of my long-deceased Grandmother in her prime. However, the woman in the portrait had beautiful blonde hair and didn't look Japanese at all'
Kinzo is japanese wich makes his hair most likely black do we know the race of his wife? She also had black hair (if she was western the genes could be in her). So whats with Krauss and all these hair colors? Artistic choice? In Higurashi we have green and blue girls, I don't think the Sonozaki's or the proud shrinemaiden would dye their hair.
In the same scene Jessica also mentions that Beatrice doesn't exist while Maria is right beside here, but it looks like she is too hungry to defend Beatrice.
If the character him/herself isn't from the west, haircolors are usually meant to give the reader/viewer a hint to the characters personality, at least part of it.
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