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Old 2010-08-08, 11:02   Link #23641
Lord_Soth
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@toxicstar ,

You have to understand that people are unable to understand and comprehend a situation when someone twists events and bends reality in order to play with their inner fears.

Shirley suffered under Mao, due to that.She fired a gun almost killing Lelouch, because someone was able to surface her inner fears and gave fuel to her inner conflict at that point.She was in love with the man, and she also hated him for taking her father away.Its a delicate balance, all it takes is some 'mind pebbles' from Mao to shatter her completely.Is that betrayal as well, then? And who is she betraying? The man she loves, or the monster who kills people and took her father away?

Kallen found herself in the same boat.Her loyalty to Zero is unquestioned, even in the events of Stage 25, she only turns away because there's another Mao there (Suzaku) who twists her mind and her feelings at that point. She's torn from the realization of Zero being Lelouch, Zero using the Japanese-the BKs-Kallen herself to further a 'secret agenta'. She's in the same scale as Shirley was back when she was pointing a gun at Lelouch.

It's like pulling a rag under your feet. Their world shatters because they don't even know at that point, who they should trust. Which face should they believe in and who is the man infront of them - is it the one they trust and love, or is it the monster that others (and himself) try too hard to convince them he is.

Kallen spends a sufficient amount to try and understand what is going on, and asert her feelings. Thats a year after the first incident in Stage 25, and more than a month between Turn 19 and Turn 22 when she finally confronts him. And what she sees in his actions after that, is not the kind and loving man she was able to witness and understand for one year she was 'spying' on him with CC's help. It's not the man that Nunally described to her when they were talking while she was kept hostage. It's not the man who envisioned Naoto's dream, and the man she came to love. This is someone else. Someone who goes against everything she believes in (And that is what Lelouch was actively trying to do here, and not just to Kallen, but pretty much to every single one. If you recall, CC asked him about Nunally, and he blatanly and clearly said that EVEN if Nunally stands in the way of Zero Requiem, she will not be spared,and that speaks volumes).
So, in her last act, she reverts back to the girl that she was at the initial stages of the anime. Reckless to the point of suicidal when she knows there is no hope, and that she is destined to lose her life at some point, she simply channels all her energy into taking down this monster she sees infront of her, as her last act into this world. She has abandonded all hope for a future and better world (since the man who could have turned this into a reality is no longer there), and simply wants to end it here and now.In a sense, she is not betraying Zero there, but actually doing the same thing Zero personally would have done in an instant.Fight oppression, until your last breath.

Kallen will live with the burden of knowing.You can laugh with her, while she stands tied up there watching Zero Requiem final stage unforld, yet I'm sure , in her self conscience, she already blames herself for being unable to see past all this.She tries to spare Tohdoh the same burden of knowing (Wasn't he Suzakus martial art teacher? If there is one who can understand who is hidding behind Zeros mask from the moment he stands moving until he reaches the stage in front of Lelouch, then it should be Tohdoh himself) because that is something too heavy to live with. Knowing will only cause you to keep backtracking in your life, trying to understand your errors, and keep second guessing yourself as to what you could or should have done differently to avert this situation - It can drive you crazy.

Kallen and Nunally are two characters that will have to live the rest of their lives, with that burden. And the realization, that in this more promising and peacefull (for as long as it lasts) era that is dawning, they will have to walk it 'alone' without the man they love the most being at their side.And why?

Because that is the final Geass that Lelouch casted upon them.
And that is arguably a lot more different than "and they lived happily ever after.The End."
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Old 2010-08-08, 15:44   Link #23642
azul120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Soth View Post
If you recall, CC asked him about Nunally, and he blatanly and clearly said that EVEN if Nunally stands in the way of Zero Requiem, she will not be spared,and that speaks volumes).
That's beside the point, and irrespective of his "act". It was only a result of him knowing that he was beyond the point of no return, and that not going all the way with the plan would have made things even worse.
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Old 2010-08-08, 19:19   Link #23643
Bonzo
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I'm drawing the fight Kallen vs Suzaku.

Well...Kallen was dangerous, try to imagine her now, to protect her family, she's a real mean person.
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Old 2010-08-08, 20:18   Link #23644
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Originally Posted by toxicstar View Post
Sorry for all you Kallen fans out there, but I actually felt quite a bit of animosity towards Kallen from the moment she felt betrayed by Zero whom the Black Knights/Schneizer revealed was Lelouch until her monologue in the last episode. It's so wrong for her to be happy and relishing in the future that Lelouch gave up his life to create when she turned her back on him.

Maybe the reason I really despise her so much is because she posed such a strong threat to Lelouch in his rise to power. She was a first rate pilot with a top of the line Knightmare and she was capable of taking out Lelouch's people with ease, aside from Suzaku (although I still haven't figured out if Suzaku's defeat was intentional for the realization of Zero Requiem, I mean what if he accidentally really died? who the hell would carry out Lelouch's assassination?)

Anyways just wanted to throw my two cents out there. If only Kallen was as loyal to "Zero" as Rolo was to Lelouch I would have respected her more. Perhaps she's just too headstrong for my likings. Particularly in one of the finals scenes where she was teary-eyed upon seeing Zero/Suzaku kill Lelouch. I almost wanted to laugh in her face for having been so blind until then, if I wasn't already so sad by Lelouch's death. And I thought Shirley's death was sad, boy was I wrong.

I'm fine with a ShirleyXLelouch or even CCXLelouch but I will never stand for a KallenXLelouch pairing.

I know no one asked for my opinion but I just wanted to vent out some steam here.
I'm struggling to come to terms with how you managed to miss obvious and yet key flaws to your entire point of view. Before judging Kallen you must understand her most prominent loyalties; Her family, Japan, Lelouch/Zero and the Black Knights. You must also understand Lelouch's actions and intentions. He could have included Kallen in his final plans but he chose not to, to save her. For Kallen to have stayed by Lelouch's side, after all the evidence, all the thoughts from other black knights, after Lelouch became the enemy of the entire world (including Japan), it would have required her to abandon all other loyalties. That isn't logical, it's uncharacteristic and would have led to Kallen not being able to live a normal life after ZR. For his participation Suzaku had to abandon everything and become Zero. It's also likely that others closely involved, such as Jeremiah, would have to live in hiding mostly.

You should reevaluate your point of view and look closely at what it would have meant for Kallen to stay by Lelouch's side.
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Old 2010-08-11, 06:06   Link #23645
Paladinoras
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Wonderful textwalling.

Too bad I read it a year ago. All of it. O_O
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Old 2010-08-13, 00:27   Link #23646
Feanor
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I think Kallen, after the betrayal of the Black Knights believed that Lelouch was not actually that evil. She tried to protect him from the Black Knights and then he pushes her away. At that moment, Kallen must have really felt used. She was probably really messed up inside because here are the Black Knights turning on their creator, the man who has saved Kallen's life many times and done much to help her with her dreams. Then this man that she thanks for her life admits, "Oh yep, you caught me. I was really actually using all of you. And Kallen, remember that time I slipped you a ruffie, yeah, you don't want to know what happened then." So she leaves him and then he whispers to her to live on. She realizes that perhaps the whole, admitting he is a habitual user thing was his way of sparing her from the scrutiny of her comrades. She had plenty of time to figure out that that move might have been Lelouch acting in typical Zero fashion, saying or doing one thing, but really using that to further the goals of something completely opposite. Then Lelouch resurfaces and asks to join her people in the UFN. She is still super confused by what happened on the Black Knights flag ship and she gets her chance to ask him about it. At that point, I think she would have followed him to the gates of hell if he had told her that he needed her and that all this Emperor Lelouch stuff was really just his last move as Zero to bring peace to the world, to bring about her brother's dream. However, Lelouch, knowing that his plan would screw over anyone associated with him, did his best to stop this and so pushed her even further away. When Kallen kissed him, she realized that 1. Lelouch did not need her, for whatever plans he had, 2. he would not reveal those plans to her for whatever reason, 3. He did not love her as much as she wanted, he had chosen CC as his shield and Suzaku as his sword and there was no room for Kallen, and 4. she was in love with him. suddenly, kallen began believing that maybe Lelouch really is the demon everyone says he is. She could not help but feel betrayed, and not only that, but he spurned her love. I'm sure that that love went through a quick metamorphosis into hate and rage at Lelouch, which is why she went berserk to try to stop and kill him.
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Old 2010-08-13, 01:40   Link #23647
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In the end, Lelouch didn't want to take Kallen down with him.
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Old 2010-08-13, 05:57   Link #23648
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
I think Kallen, after the betrayal of the Black Knights believed that Lelouch was not actually that evil. She tried to protect him from the Black Knights and then he pushes her away. At that moment, Kallen must have really felt used. She was probably really messed up inside because here are the Black Knights turning on their creator, the man who has saved Kallen's life many times and done much to help her with her dreams. Then this man that she thanks for her life admits, "Oh yep, you caught me. I was really actually using all of you. And Kallen, remember that time I slipped you a ruffie, yeah, you don't want to know what happened then." So she leaves him and then he whispers to her to live on. She realizes that perhaps the whole, admitting he is a habitual user thing was his way of sparing her from the scrutiny of her comrades. She had plenty of time to figure out that that move might have been Lelouch acting in typical Zero fashion, saying or doing one thing, but really using that to further the goals of something completely opposite. Then Lelouch resurfaces and asks to join her people in the UFN. She is still super confused by what happened on the Black Knights flag ship and she gets her chance to ask him about it. At that point, I think she would have followed him to the gates of hell if he had told her that he needed her and that all this Emperor Lelouch stuff was really just his last move as Zero to bring peace to the world, to bring about her brother's dream. However, Lelouch, knowing that his plan would screw over anyone associated with him, did his best to stop this and so pushed her even further away. When Kallen kissed him, she realized that 1. Lelouch did not need her, for whatever plans he had, 2. he would not reveal those plans to her for whatever reason, 3. He did not love her as much as she wanted, he had chosen CC as his shield and Suzaku as his sword and there was no room for Kallen, and 4. she was in love with him. suddenly, kallen began believing that maybe Lelouch really is the demon everyone says he is. She could not help but feel betrayed, and not only that, but he spurned her love. I'm sure that that love went through a quick metamorphosis into hate and rage at Lelouch, which is why she went berserk to try to stop and kill him.
at no point were her actions seemingly driven by hate or rage at Lelouch.
its true that she was driven to stop him, but she didn't seem to do it out of personal anger at him because he "spurned her love" or anything like that.
when he didn't return her feelings in ep 22, she just said goodbye and she left.
she didn't display any hostility towards him until he took the UFN leadership hostage, and sent his troops in to CONQUER JAPAN (which is an understandably touchy subject where Kallen is concerned)
when she was about to kill him, she was crying, which should tell you all you need to know about it.
it was more like "even though i love him, he's turned into a monster, and i have to stop him at any cost", which rather nicely reflects Nunnaly's mindframe at the time.

both love him, and both know he must be stopped.
and both, take it upon themselves to be the ones who do it, despite, or even BECAUSE they love him.
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Old 2010-08-13, 23:50   Link #23649
Feanor
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Ok, you might be right there. I am always wondering when Kallen fought C.C., C.C. says she is fighting for her promise to Lelouch and Kallen asks if she is in love with Lelouch, i wonder if there was some jealousy or something going on there, cause kallen smashed CC really soon after that.

I got it. Kallen wanted to be the one to kill Lelouch so that she could chop off choice body parts to keep in her naughty drawer before anyone else could take him away from her. Not really.
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Old 2010-08-14, 04:43   Link #23650
bladeofdarkness
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Ok, you might be right there. I am always wondering when Kallen fought C.C., C.C. says she is fighting for her promise to Lelouch and Kallen asks if she is in love with Lelouch, i wonder if there was some jealousy or something going on there, cause kallen smashed CC really soon after that.
she spends the entire BATTLE trying to smash C.C up.
she sounds MORE pissed off at her BEFORE C.C says she has a promise to keep with Lelouch.
up until THAT point, Kallen seems REALLY pissed that someone like C.C, who doesn't really have a reason to fight, is standing in her way.

her final response to C.C before the smashing almost sounds like a compliment when compared to her original "if you have no reason to fight, then you should get lost"

and keep one thing in mind.
the final "smashing" is done in a reletively minor way.
if Kallen WAS trying to be mean, or cause C.C pain, she would have fried her with the claw, or stabbed the lancelot in the chest right through to the cockpit.
instead, she slashs it across the chest armor, leaving C.C plenty of time to escape unharmed.
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Old 2010-08-14, 04:53   Link #23651
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
she spends the entire BATTLE trying to smash C.C up.
she sounds MORE pissed off at her BEFORE C.C says she has a promise to keep with Lelouch.
up until THAT point, Kallen seems REALLY pissed that someone like C.C, who doesn't really have a reason to fight, is standing in her way.

her final response to C.C before the smashing almost sounds like a compliment when compared to her original "if you have no reason to fight, then you should get lost"

and keep one thing in mind.
the final "smashing" is done in a reletively minor way.
if Kallen WAS trying to be mean, or cause C.C pain, she would have fried her with the claw, or stabbed the lancelot in the chest right through to the cockpit.
instead, she slashs it across the chest armor, leaving C.C plenty of time to escape unharmed.
I found Kallen really scary when she was just smacking away at C.C during the last battle, and the fact that I was thinking Kallen was just either really pissed-off because "Lelouch never answered her feelings" or the fact that "She got really jealous of C.C" But I would assume its neither of those.

Also on the last part, I kinda found it very odd on why Kallen dint go ahead and slash away at C.C, and just left her to escape unharmed.
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Old 2010-08-16, 03:22   Link #23652
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Maybe she went easy on her for old times sake, or if she knew C.C. wouldn't be killed anyway she saw no reason to waste any extra time or ammo on someone who would definitely survive anyway and just took her out of the fight ASAP.
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Old 2010-08-16, 05:18   Link #23653
Bonzo
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Kallen's return in the OAV:

http://sabrinaonline.altervista.org/.../OAVchp2-3.JPG
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Old 2010-08-16, 06:10   Link #23654
bladeofdarkness
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i know the answer would probably come sooner or later... but WHY is she attacking him ?
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Old 2010-08-16, 06:51   Link #23655
Bonzo
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Well, Suzaku, cause his personal obsession, want speak with Lelouch, but...

Normally, Kaguya always call kallen when some "considerable" people want speak with them, Suzaku gone there secretly, thinking kallen was away with her children like every thursday for to be a teacher support help during primary school swim lesson.

But suzaku never care of Lelouch and kallen, otherwise he knew about elizabeth birth, then Kallen was at home for motherhood.

Try to imagine, Suzaku gone there without kaguya's warn and spy the house like a thief, for Kallen, suzaku was there with bad intentions.
There was a rule, but now kallen is a mother, then she doesn't care about that old deal and protect her treasures.
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Old 2010-08-16, 18:54   Link #23656
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Kallen RULES! That the "Mother Wolf" instinct at full power, and yes I can identify with it!
Very good Bonzo!
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Old 2010-08-16, 23:13   Link #23657
Hooves
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Kallen RULES! That the "Mother Wolf" instinct at full power, and yes I can identify with it!
Very good Bonzo!
In a fair fight, Kallen seems to be able to defeat Suzaku, since Suzaku had the power of the "Live On" Geass casted on him, so it was not really an equal match. Would like to know how it would have ended if he did not have that Geass casted on him... Well probably Kallen would win the fight anyway. So I agree that Kallen pwns

Also how could you identify it Lost Cause?
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Old 2010-08-17, 01:44   Link #23658
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Not going to comment on knightmare's, because quite frankly, I don't care, and they were close enough that I don't see how it matters. But, in a physical fight, regardless of any geasses, I'm pretty sure even Kallen would have a tough time facing up against Spinzaku.

Now let's see how many people interpret this as me bashing Kallen.
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Old 2010-08-17, 02:18   Link #23659
morbosfist
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That's not bashing, that's just truth. Kallen wouldn't win that fight. Suzaku's inhumanly strong. Knightmare to Knightmare she's better, but not hand-to-hand.
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Old 2010-08-17, 03:16   Link #23660
Bonzo
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In that fight, Suzaku not defend himself, he's just trying to explain he's there just to speak, then suffer all the hits like a "peace proof".

At last, Kallen stop to beat him with:

"TSK, like that time, there isn't satisfation to take one's vengeance on somebody not defend himself!"
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