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Old 2010-08-13, 14:36   Link #61
Mr. DJ
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Considering Ai-chan outright owned Toushiro back in Soul Society and just about killed him, yeah, no chance in hell.
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Old 2010-08-13, 14:40   Link #62
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Stark and Halibel, in the same damn episode?

Wait, if Hollows vanish when they die, why were there mountains of them around Stark?
I think in the manga it was just piles of masks but I'm not sure.
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Old 2010-08-13, 14:54   Link #63
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Stark and Halibel, in the same damn episode?

Wait, if Hollows vanish when they die, why were there mountains of them around Stark?

Plot holes
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Old 2010-08-13, 22:47   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Mr.Amazing View Post
I don't understand all of the disappointment talk. Halibel took on 2 vizards (vc level) and a Captain without taking any damage. Barragan took two forearms and was only defeated by an amazing use of kido which everyone says they want more of, and Stark took on one of the three top captains in the series after nearly defeating two vizards (who without Shunsui would have been goners).
The disappointment talks are stemming from the fact how underwhelmingly 1-3 performed. There just weren't enough material to convey it to fans like myself about their respective abilities and strength. The whole thing in an essence has been a clusterfuck. I actually needed to make my own observation and come to my own conclusion to form any kind of opinion in regards to 1-3, i.e. the number of opponent they fought and etc. Number 4, Ulqui, absolutely overwhelmed Ichigo in his Vaizard form. Not only that, Uliqui, then transformed to a second stage to strike home the difference of level. Aside for Barragan in select moments, everyone else struggled. They did not come across as overwhelming at any point as far as I'm concerned.

I actually cheered when Aizen cut down Hallibel. His statement to Hallibel pretty much sums up the 1-3 ranked espada. Quite overblown in reputation. Disappointing!
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Old 2010-08-13, 23:04   Link #65
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Tss, you guys are seeing plot holes everywhere..

-> Hollows disappeared only when they are purified by a Shinigami zanpakutou
( for exemple, one of the Hollow sliced by Ichigo in the beginning of the manga did not disappeared because he was sent to the Hell world and was not purified )

-> Starrk spiritual pressure can kill simple hollows right away, but the vice-captains are a completly different level.
( Even the little girl soul and the strawhat Shinigami at the very beginning of the battle could stand the pressure of everybody from the battlefield )

Though I must admit that the black hole thing was a little cheating
But well, even if you apply logical physic, he must have shadow on the interior of his hole and so enough black for being cut by Shunsui attack
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Old 2010-08-13, 23:44   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Suryce View Post
Tss, you guys are seeing plot holes everywhere..

-> Hollows disappeared only when they are purified by a Shinigami zanpakutou
( for exemple, one of the Hollow sliced by Ichigo in the beginning of the manga did not disappeared because he was sent to the Hell world and was not purified )
wasn't that the hollow that retained his memories of being a murderer?
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Old 2010-08-14, 04:58   Link #67
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Who knows, who knows...
Tia Harribel became a pity to me in the end... Her death was unfair.
Who has read a manga, tell me, please, what has conceived Aizen?
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Old 2010-08-14, 09:09   Link #68
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Originally Posted by monir View Post
The disappointment talks are stemming from the fact how underwhelmingly 1-3 performed. There just weren't enough material to convey it to fans like myself about their respective abilities and strength. The whole thing in an essence has been a clusterfuck. I actually needed to make my own observation and come to my own conclusion to form any kind of opinion in regards to 1-3, i.e. the number of opponent they fought and etc. Number 4, Ulqui, absolutely overwhelmed Ichigo in his Vaizard form. Not only that, Uliqui, then transformed to a second stage to strike home the difference of level. Aside for Barragan in select moments, everyone else struggled. They did not come across as overwhelming at any point as far as I'm concerned.

I actually cheered when Aizen cut down Hallibel. His statement to Hallibel pretty much sums up the 1-3 ranked espada. Quite overblown in reputation. Disappointing!
Stark totally owned Love & Rose in their hollow forms. SO i'd hardly say he was overblown, but his cero attacks...didn't really do much at all..except for the cero wolves...

I am a bit disapointed we never got to see another gran ray cero attack...especially in the case of Stark...which woulda looked so awesome coming from his guns...
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Old 2010-08-14, 09:24   Link #69
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wasn't that the hollow that retained his memories of being a murderer?
It wasn't if he retained his memories or not, it was because he was a murderer when alive.

Most hollows were good people when alive, just have lost their connection with the real world and have a hole where their heart was - remember Orihime's brother. Shinigami "purify" the souls when they kill them of everything they did as hollows. It's the people who were evil when alive that get the whole gates of hell treatment when killed by a shinigami.

Or at least that's what Kubo said 9 years ago. I'm sure he's forgotten by now...
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Old 2010-08-14, 10:05   Link #70
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-> Hollows disappeared only when they are purified by a Shinigami zanpakutou
I gots this sudden flashback of Ishida using his hollow-bug-spray to wipe out leeeegions of hollows at many points of the story :rollseyes:
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Though I must admit that the black hole thing was a little cheating
Well alternatively he could have used Kage oni and just slash right through him from whatever shadows the hole casts, the very moment Stark touches the ground.
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Old 2010-08-14, 10:53   Link #71
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Originally Posted by monir View Post
The disappointment talks are stemming from the fact how underwhelmingly 1-3 performed. There just weren't enough material to convey it to fans like myself about their respective abilities and strength. The whole thing in an essence has been a clusterfuck. I actually needed to make my own observation and come to my own conclusion to form any kind of opinion in regards to 1-3, i.e. the number of opponent they fought and etc. Number 4, Ulqui, absolutely overwhelmed Ichigo in his Vaizard form. Not only that, Uliqui, then transformed to a second stage to strike home the difference of level. Aside for Barragan in select moments, everyone else struggled. They did not come across as overwhelming at any point as far as I'm concerned.

I actually cheered when Aizen cut down Hallibel. His statement to Hallibel pretty much sums up the 1-3 ranked espada. Quite overblown in reputation. Disappointing!
I totally disagree with you saying they struggled. Halibel never showed a single sign of deress. She was handling Hitsuguya like Aizen handled her. And then when it was three on one she still never got hit. She just couldn't go on the offensive because it was three on one. And Stark never ha a moments trouble with Rose and Love. He was owning two captain level vaizards. And he never seemed in doubt until one of the most powerful good guys came back into play. I also don't understand what you mean by your observations. That's how it's supposed to be isn't it?
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Old 2010-08-14, 11:18   Link #72
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Originally Posted by Mr.Amazing View Post
I totally disagree with you saying they struggled. Halibel never showed a single sign of deress. She was handling Hitsuguya like Aizen handled her.
Not really. Hitsugaya was holding his own pretty well against a released Halibel. At the very least, he was doing a hell of a lot better than Vizard Ichigo was doing against Ulquiorra's first release. In fact, one could even argue that the one-on-one duel was his since he successfully froze Halibel and we have no way knowing if she would've been able to continue that fight without WW's help.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Amazing View Post
And he never seemed in doubt until one of the most powerful good guys came back into play.
The fact is, the battle returned to being a one-on-one duel between Shunsui and Stark. And in the end a released Stark ended up being defeated by an opponent who's not a Vizard and who didn't even have to go Bankai. It's a very underwhelming outcome.
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Old 2010-08-14, 13:03   Link #73
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Not really. Hitsugaya was holding his own pretty well against a released Halibel. At the very least, he was doing a hell of a lot better than Vizard Ichigo was doing against Ulquiorra's first release. In fact, one could even argue that the one-on-one duel was his since he successfully froze Halibel and we have no way knowing if she would've been able to continue that fight without WW's help.




The fact is, the battle returned to being a one-on-one duel between Shunsui and Stark. And in the end a released Stark ended up being defeated by an opponent who's not a Vizard and who didn't even have to go Bankai. It's a very underwhelming outcome.
Hitsuguya and Halibel was a stalemate because of his powers, and I have every reason to believe she could have broken out, because we have seen her break free from ice prisons at least twice.

And yes, Stark's and Shunsui's battle did indeed become a one on one duel but not until after Stark had nearly disposed of two captain level vaizards. Shunsui is as I said before one of the most powerful captains there is. Stark showed no shame in being defeated by him, especially with the circumstances of the fight. Stark was having to adapt to the fighting styles constantly being put on the defencive because of them.

Last edited by Mr.Amazing; 2010-08-14 at 13:23. Reason: not finished
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Old 2010-08-14, 15:51   Link #74
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Originally Posted by monir View Post
The disappointment talks are stemming from the fact how underwhelmingly 1-3 performed. There just weren't enough material to convey it to fans like myself about their respective abilities and strength. The whole thing in an essence has been a clusterfuck. I actually needed to make my own observation and come to my own conclusion to form any kind of opinion in regards to 1-3, i.e. the number of opponent they fought and etc. Number 4, Ulqui, absolutely overwhelmed Ichigo in his Vaizard form. Not only that, Uliqui, then transformed to a second stage to strike home the difference of level. Aside for Barragan in select moments, everyone else struggled. They did not come across as overwhelming at any point as far as I'm concerned.

I actually cheered when Aizen cut down Hallibel. His statement to Hallibel pretty much sums up the 1-3 ranked espada. Quite overblown in reputation. Disappointing!
Well despite plot reasons and Uliqu being an opponent of Ichigo (which major opponent of Ichigo didnt seem uber at first?) if you want to put some sense in the varying demonstations of power with top 4 espada - maybe its because of setting?

Hollow powers get a boost in HM right? Consider the 11 sec time limit for Ichigos mask in the real world, being amped to a whole battle length and regenerating after being cracked/shattered.

I mean anyone wonder why when Uliqu R1 first transformed Ichigo felt as if he was being rained down by Uliqu' reaitsu...? When Espada 1-3 released none fo the captains standing before them even so much as flinched?

What could this mean? HM may have boosted Uliqu powers from at least 20% or higher? Ichigo may also simply be not as experienced or trained to have the type of mindset the other captains had when facing their Espada opponents.

Whos to say Uliq R1 wouldnt have struggled if he indeed was fighting in FKT with the other Espada. From Ichigo's eyes all his opponents seem uber strong...and hence the readers as well...

Just a possibility
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Old 2010-08-14, 18:02   Link #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Amazing View Post
Hitsuguya and Halibel was a stalemate because of his powers, and I have every reason to believe she could have broken out, because we have seen her break free from ice prisons at least twice.

And yes, Stark's and Shunsui's battle did indeed become a one on one duel but not until after Stark had nearly disposed of two captain level vaizards. Shunsui is as I said before one of the most powerful captains there is. Stark showed no shame in being defeated by him, especially with the circumstances of the fight. Stark was having to adapt to the fighting styles constantly being put on the defencive because of them.
I don't even know how you can possibly defend these match-ups and battles. They have "horrible" written all over them. I don't care if you're not showing any fear or emotion, if you're the released NUMBER ONE espada and you get ass-f***ed by a shikai... That doesn't speak much for any of the hollows in Hueco Mondo who are beneath you. I mean, what, is that all the fortitude you got as Espada numero uno? You can make all the excuses in the world for him: He was the best. And he didn't even fight -anyone- at full strength. NONE of the Captains he fought went bankai. Stark is a piece of trash, I'm afraid, too lowly for them to go all out.

As for Halibel and her fight with Hitsugaya, I'm pretty sure if she was able to break out on her own, there was really no need for WW to come to her rescue and help her out, was there?

Seriously, defending the might of the Espada is a waste of time, they suck. They couldn't defeat vicecaptains, they couldn't defeat Captains. NO ONE DIED. Oooo my arm was cut off! Oh well, I'm sure Orihime can just fix it up with her hocus pocus.

I'm sure you've got better things to do
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Old 2010-08-14, 21:54   Link #76
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It wasn't if he retained his memories or not, it was because he was a murderer when alive.

Most hollows were good people when alive, just have lost their connection with the real world and have a hole where their heart was - remember Orihime's brother. Shinigami "purify" the souls when they kill them of everything they did as hollows. It's the people who were evil when alive that get the whole gates of hell treatment when killed by a shinigami.

Or at least that's what Kubo said 9 years ago. I'm sure he's forgotten by now...
well yeah, I was alluding (think that's the word I'm looking for ) to that since Arrancar have free will and all and aren't mindless like the vast majority of fodder Hollows.

We've seen Ichigo kill plenty a Hollow throughout the series, but only saw the Hell Gate once for that specific Hollow
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Old 2010-08-15, 10:22   Link #77
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I don't care if you're not showing any fear or emotion, if you're the released NUMBER ONE espada and you get ass-f***ed by a shikai...
In the shikai's defence, Aizen owned the entire SS with HIS shikai, and Shunsui's is nearly as h4x as KS...the moment he starts calling out colours, he has stripped his enemies of all their power, and they're all playing by his rules alone. That's a tad bit unfair, as it makes him the most experienced one in "games", thus gives him a huge advantage even if he had a 1v4 going on against the vizard captains four full-power Yamamoto clones! (they take...turns o_0).
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That doesn't speak much for any of the hollows in Hueco Mondo who are beneath you.
Despite his defeat, I still think that Barragan's power was absolute. It's not so much the characters than it is the plot shields, especially with the top 3 espada.
Quote:
As for Halibel and her fight with Hitsugaya, I'm pretty sure if she was able to break out on her own, there was really no need for WW to come to her rescue and help her out, was there?
Gotta agree with this one...despite his fanbase, Toushiro's been losing a lot in fights, why couldn't he lose this one till the vizard come?
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Seriously, defending the might of the Espada is a waste of time, they suck.
D'ooooh! Did I just waste my time?
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Old 2010-08-15, 17:03   Link #78
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In the shikai's defence, Aizen owned the entire SS with HIS shikai, and Shunsui's is nearly as h4x as KS...the moment he starts calling out colours, he has stripped his enemies of all their power, and they're all playing by his rules alone. That's a tad bit unfair, as it makes him the most experienced one in "games", thus gives him a huge advantage even if he had a 1v4 going on against the vizard captains four full-power Yamamoto clones! (they take...turns o_0).

Despite his defeat, I still think that Barragan's power was absolute. It's not so much the characters than it is the plot shields, especially with the top 3 espada.

Gotta agree with this one...despite his fanbase, Toushiro's been losing a lot in fights, why couldn't he lose this one till the vizard come?

D'ooooh! Did I just waste my time?
I agree I believe that many of the top 3 espada are VL, because of there tremendous power. Plus the battle wasn't really fair since it was the Vizards and soul reapers vs Aizen's army of VL
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Old 2010-08-15, 17:45   Link #79
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Not Stark

the loss is all in Aizen's side!! one of the shinigamies or Vizards must die!!!
from what we had seen, the Vizards were not a big trouble for the Arrancar, they are not enough as opponents, they cant beat an Arrancar even when their masks on .. so at least one of them should die.

make a balance Kubo!
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Old 2010-08-15, 18:21   Link #80
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what an emotional rollercoaster.. I couldn't decide on whether I should feel sorry for Stark/Lilli or admiring Shunsui's awesomeness - and in the end I even felt attracted to sharkboobs
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