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Old 2010-08-12, 09:48   Link #2421
DragoZERO
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Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
Nope, Saber definitely expresses her disapproval, but says she's got some time before she fades away and goes off to try to find someone else to make a contract with. The first (and I think the second) bad end is all Illya/Berserker.

Though yes, it is Tiger Dojo
Boy, my memory is so bad. That's the one problem when you watch so much anime, read a lot of manga, and play a tremendous visual novel like F/SN. Oh, and there's real life too, haha.
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Old 2010-08-12, 10:20   Link #2422
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Well, I finally started playing the game 3 days ago...and...just finished the excruciatingly long prologue. It's my first time playing a visual novel and so far it I'm not really enjoying it. Well, I have to admit that Archers fight with Lancer seemed epic, but mostly because of the music and I've seen a lot of kung fu flicks so my imagination creates the most awesome fight scene in my head. Tohsaka going off a tangent didn't help, though. And they all talk really slowly, and have the most long winded conversations ever. Okay, Tohsaka is competitive. I get it.
I know a lot of people like to jump into VNs with Type-Moon because of the focus on storyline, but I still think it's kinda risky since Nasu isn't exactly beginner-friendly. At the very least, make sure you don't force your way through the game if you get tired. I played each of the three routes as separate games, and I never played the far routes in Tsukihime properly during my first playthrough because it was one of my first VNs and I couldn't handle the sheer length and long-windedness.

On a brighter note, F/SN is an incredible game even though I'm not a die-hard Type-Moon fan, so you're bound to enjoy it. It just takes a while to get really good.
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Old 2010-08-12, 12:11   Link #2423
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Originally Posted by _ETERNAL View Post
I know a lot of people like to jump into VNs with Type-Moon because of the focus on storyline, but I still think it's kinda risky since Nasu isn't exactly beginner-friendly. At the very least, make sure you don't force your way through the game if you get tired. I played each of the three routes as separate games, and I never played the far routes in Tsukihime properly during my first playthrough because it was one of my first VNs and I couldn't handle the sheer length and long-windedness.

On a brighter note, F/SN is an incredible game even though I'm not a die-hard Type-Moon fan, so you're bound to enjoy it. It just takes a while to get really good.
Still, I've always felt that Nasu narration could merit quite a bit of improvement, it doesn't help much when something like the final episodes of Evangelion had a clearer narrative structure (though Nasu did consider Anno to be the master of his craft).
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Old 2010-08-12, 17:10   Link #2424
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Originally Posted by aldw View Post
(though Nasu did consider Anno to be the master of his craft).
... that explains so much.

"Ah, this mind-screwing descent into incoherent madness is clearly the ultimate example of the storytelling art!"
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Old 2010-08-12, 17:59   Link #2425
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They are two superb writers, that's for sure. And they both have disturbed plots and characters too, lol.
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Old 2010-08-14, 01:25   Link #2426
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You want a disturbed plot writer that you must replay his games to fully grasp the story because its so deep? Hideo Kojima. If you don't know his name and consider yourself a gamer, you must commit seppuku immediately.
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Old 2010-08-14, 01:29   Link #2427
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Originally Posted by Flinch View Post
You want a disturbed plot writer that you must replay his games to fully grasp the story because its so deep? Hideo Kojima. If you don't know his name and consider yourself a gamer, you must commit seppuku immediately.
Oh no.... I don't know who Hideo Kojima is, and I call myself a gamer...... *Starts putting a scared-face*

Spoiler for Scared Face:
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Old 2010-08-14, 01:45   Link #2428
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The writer and producer behind the longest running cannon game series ever made, the Metal Gear Solid series (1987-2010, and currently one more game in development, probably another after that).

Spoiler:


But I digress.
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Old 2010-08-14, 17:26   Link #2429
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Off topic, but Hideo Kojima is like... God. I haven't played the whole MGS series yet but the storytelling is absolutely astounding. It's one of the only game series I can think of that has a good overall plot and knows how to integrate that plot into the game without tedious infodumps and boring text bubbles.

As for Nasu and Anno... yeah, that explains a lot. Although, Anno's only story that can really be compared to Type-Moon is Eva, and I didn't find it too hard to work my way through Eva's mindscrewing plot. It might be because working with an entire animation studio is different from working with an artist and a few assistants; AFAIK, there's no one to put a leash on Nasu's long-windedness and fantasy jargon that basically only makes sense after a week of reading on Type-Moon Wiki.
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Old 2010-08-15, 03:00   Link #2430
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So I just finished up my 3rd play through of UBW in preparation for the movie coming out soon.

Someone told me that Archer projected Rho Aius in Shiro's fight vs. Gligamesh (Since I pointed out that it didn't make sense for Shiro to do it), but on my replay I just don't see how Archer was the one who projected it. It was definitely Shiro.

Secondly, I wish we could get a sequel to F/S N (Not hollow attraxia) that consists of Shiro and Rin's journeys in London . My favorite epilogue of the three routes (I really disliked Fate's epilogue except for the Saber part).

Anyhow I'm anticipating all the fights very much for the movie. I think I'm going to replay HF again, but this time take a break before I start. Last time I grinded Fate, then UBW, and then HF in like 2.5-3 days. I was pretty exhausted and didn't enjoy it as much as I should have because of that I feel.
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Old 2010-08-15, 08:51   Link #2431
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Secondly, I wish we could get a sequel to F/S N (Not hollow attraxia) that consists of Shiro and Rin's journeys in London . My favorite epilogue of the three routes (I really disliked Fate's epilogue except for the Saber part).
It's not going to happen, because to do that would make UBW seem more 'canon', which would irritate Saber and (especially) Sakura fans no end. If you were going to do it, you'd at least have to deal with Sakura's situation somehow, in any case, because making the FSN sequel "Rin and Shirou run around London whilst Sakura is being slowly tortured to death" would not really come across very well from the viewpoint of a Sakura fan (or, indeed, anyone with a heart...).
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Old 2010-08-15, 10:08   Link #2432
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Quote:
So I just finished up my 3rd play through of UBW in preparation for the movie coming out soon.

Someone told me that Archer projected Rho Aius in Shiro's fight vs. Gligamesh (Since I pointed out that it didn't make sense for Shiro to do it), but on my replay I just don't see how Archer was the one who projected it. It was definitely Shiro.

Secondly, I wish we could get a sequel to F/S N (Not hollow attraxia) that consists of Shiro and Rin's journeys in London . My favorite epilogue of the three routes (I really disliked Fate's epilogue except for the Saber part).

Anyhow I'm anticipating all the fights very much for the movie. I think I'm going to replay HF again, but this time take a break before I start. Last time I grinded Fate, then UBW, and then HF in like 2.5-3 days. I was pretty exhausted and didn't enjoy it as much as I should have because of that I feel.
Actually, I too wish to see something like that. If Nasu ever decides to make an actual sequel of F/SN (which he probably will if Tsukihime 2 ever comes to pass), it'll probably be after UBW True or better yet, Good End, since that means more Saber. That Zelretch's Box scenario in HA could well be the basis of a F/SN 2.

I don't think that Nasu would be too worried about making one route more canon than the rest since it all takes place in a multiverse, and he's already stated that Arcuied's end is the true end of TSukihime. Anyway, I'm sure that Nasu will deal with Sakura's situation in such a case, so no need for Sakura fans to worry.
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Old 2010-08-15, 10:23   Link #2433
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Yeah, UBW Good would probably be the 'canon' ending for sequel purposes, if only because it's the only ending where Saber survives and she's head and shoulders above the rest of the cast in terms of popularity. No way they'd make a true sequel without her.

(Of course, that said, they could still go the route where none of the endings are canon and they branch off from one that wasn't in the game, so they could have Saber, Illya and worm-free Sakura at the same time.)

Last edited by Moczo; 2010-08-15 at 10:38.
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Old 2010-08-15, 10:37   Link #2434
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
So I just finished up my 3rd play through of UBW in preparation for the movie coming out soon.

Someone told me that Archer projected Rho Aius in Shiro's fight vs. Gligamesh (Since I pointed out that it didn't make sense for Shiro to do it), but on my replay I just don't see how Archer was the one who projected it. It was definitely Shiro.
Here is one question: did Shirou & Archer fight inside the Reality Marble?

Quote:
Secondly, I wish we could get a sequel to F/S N (Not hollow attraxia) that consists of Shiro and Rin's journeys in London . My favorite epilogue of the three routes (I really disliked Fate's epilogue except for the Saber part).
Yes, a true sequel would be welcome on my part.

Quote:
Anyhow I'm anticipating all the fights very much for the movie. I think I'm going to replay HF again, but this time take a break before I start. Last time I grinded Fate, then UBW, and then HF in like 2.5-3 days. I was pretty exhausted and didn't enjoy it as much as I should have because of that I feel.
I plowed through them all as well. I didn't do in days, since I could only play a little at a time, but I had no break between routes.

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Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
Yeah, UBW Good would probably be the 'canon' ending for sequel purposes, if only because it's the only ending where Saber survives and she's head and shoulders above the rest of the cast in terms of popularity. No way they'd make a true sequel without her.
Yes. They can utilize a time skip and in that skip, they saved Sakura from Zouken, thus eliminating her problem...and satisfying Cherry Lover.
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Old 2010-08-15, 10:57   Link #2435
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(Of course, that said, they could still go the route where none of the endings are canon and they branch off from one that wasn't in the game, so they could have Saber, Illya and worm-free Sakura at the same time.)
What do you think HA was?

But anyway, if they were going to do a 'true' sequel, it would indeed likely be after some other, happier, ending (perhaps a hypothetical HF Good ending where Ilya, Saber and Archer survived), because all of the endings have too many characters missing (in particular, Archer, but also at least two of Ilya, Rider and Saber) and any ending other than HF has the problem of how to deal with Sakura's situation.

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Yes. They can utilize a time skip and in that skip, they saved Sakura from Zouken, thus eliminating her problem...and satisfying Cherry Lover.
Err, if they did that, gave no explanation and failed to involve her in any way in the story (or involved her only perhipherally), that wouldn't satisfy me at all. It'd just look like a total ass-pull attempt to not piss off Sakura fans without having to bother with thinking up a way out of the massive hole they've dug themselves. Plus, if Nasu did that, it'd make HF seem totally redundant.

However, this is totally moot. They won't do a 'true' FSN sequel, because they already have a sequel. It's called "Hollow Ataraxia". Tsukihime can easily have a 'true' sequel because all of the main characters are still there and there is a 'canon' ending which leads into one naturally (with Shiki looking for the blood fruit, or whatever it's called...). FSN doesn't have any natural sequel hooks (well, except for Sakura's situation, but I doubt he'd want to make a sequel based solely around that), the main idea of the plot of the original isn't repeatable (so the set-up would have to be totally different), the most popular pairing isn't possible and many of the characters are missing (no matter which end you pick).
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Old 2010-08-15, 11:04   Link #2436
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What do you think HA was?

But anyway, if they were going to do a 'true' sequel, it would indeed likely be after some other, happier, ending (perhaps a hypothetical HF Good ending where Ilya, Saber and Archer survived), because all of the endings have too many characters missing (in particular, Archer, but also at least two of Ilya, Rider and Saber) and any ending other than HF has the problem of how to deal with Sakura's situation.
I forgot about Ilya...hmmm...lol...no win here.


Quote:
Err, if they did that, gave no explanation and failed to involve her in any way in the story (or involved her only perhipherally), that wouldn't satisfy me at all. It'd just look like a total ass-pull attempt to not piss off Sakura fans without having to bother with thinking up a way out of the massive hole they've dug themselves. Plus, if Nasu did that, it'd make HF seem totally redundant.
How would it be bad? They can't make a sequel that's almost the same as HF. So if they give a prologue to the sequel, saying they saved Sakura and stuff, then it'd be fine.

Either way, if there was going to be a sequel, they would have to make one for each route. One reason I'd like a sequel is to see Shirou become Archer. Archer is from Fate, right?
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Old 2010-08-15, 11:12   Link #2437
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I don't think they ever say which ending, if any, Archer is from; if it's one of the three possible in the game, though, it does have to be Fate since we do know that he saved Illya in his Grail War. They have said that one of the first huge blows to his idealism was that he saved her during the war only to have her die a year later anyway, which is why Archer refuses to even attempt dealing with Berserker by just shanking Illya.

From the way he talks in UBW, it seems like he might come from a route where Shirou didn't get together with any of the heroines, given that Archer seems to think that Shirou being with Rin will be sufficient to stop him from making the choices that led him to becoming a Heroic Spirit.
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Old 2010-08-15, 11:12   Link #2438
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
What do you think HA was?

But anyway, if they were going to do a 'true' sequel, it would indeed likely be after some other, happier, ending (perhaps a hypothetical HF Good ending where Ilya, Saber and Archer survived), because all of the endings have too many characters missing (in particular, Archer, but also at least two of Ilya, Rider and Saber) and any ending other than HF has the problem of how to deal with Sakura's situation.
It wouldn't really be HF at all if Archer and Saber survived, would it? Archer being alive negates everything that Shirou does, since without Archer's arm he's pretty much useless. Sure, Archer can do that stuff instead, but that starts to veer it quite a bit off of HF. Then, when you add in Saber surviving, you make it pretty much impossible to be HF, since a big part of it was Saber's corruption and Shirou having to fight her. If she's not corrupt, what holds him, Rider, and Archer (now) back from helping Rin's assault against Dark Sakura?

We all know you love HF beyond belief, but the easiest route to do a sequel on is UBW (Good is easier than True, but both are easy). The only real change that needs to be done is Ilya being used as the grail like in Fate instead of Shinji, which doesn't truly change anything. Heck, it could give Shirou more motivation to crush Gilgamesh. Also, Archer would need some prana at the end to prevent his disappearance. Those two minor tweaks, which don't ultimately affect the story, are quite easy to accomplish comparatively.

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FSN doesn't have any natural sequel hooks (well, except for Sakura's situation, but I doubt he'd want to make a sequel based solely around that)
Ilya says "Hi".
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Old 2010-08-15, 11:53   Link #2439
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I forgot about Ilya...hmmm...lol...no win here.
Well, and Rider, who is also pretty popular. Not to mention Archer.

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How would it be bad? They can't make a sequel that's almost the same as HF. So if they give a prologue to the sequel, saying they saved Sakura and stuff, then it'd be fine.
Because it wouldn't make sense without explanation. I would want to know how they did it, because killing Zouken is certainly not easy. And, I certainly wouldn't be impressed with them just bumping Sakura into the background with a few lines saying "oh, by the way, we saved Sakura too".

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Either way, if there was going to be a sequel, they would have to make one for each route.
Well, perhaps, but that would be a lot of effort.

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One reason I'd like a sequel is to see Shirou become Archer. Archer is from Fate, right?
No. Archer comes from some unspecified route. Likely it was somewhat like Fate, but it wasn't Fate itself.

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It wouldn't really be HF at all if Archer and Saber survived, would it? Archer being alive negates everything that Shirou does, since without Archer's arm he's pretty much useless. Sure, Archer can do that stuff instead, but that starts to veer it quite a bit off of HF. Then, when you add in Saber surviving, you make it pretty much impossible to be HF, since a big part of it was Saber's corruption and Shirou having to fight her. If she's not corrupt, what holds him, Rider, and Archer (now) back from helping Rin's assault against Dark Sakura?
Well, when I say "HF Good", I mean "an ending something like HF True, but with Ilya, Archer and Saber around". You're right that it wouldn't go the same way as HF, but that doesn't matter, because they're hardly going to explain the details (like they didn't explain them with Melty Blood). The final outcome would still be the same, and that's what ultimately matters.

Also, you could get around this by having Sakura corrupt Saber and Archer/Shirou then uncorrupt her (if that's possible...). And, with Archer around Shirou would pick up on his own abilities, and thus become more awesome. Archer going to help Rin fight Sakura wouldn't be a problem, because he'd just trace Rule Breaker and thus save her.

Quote:
We all know you love HF beyond belief, but the easiest route to do a sequel on is UBW (Good is easier than True, but both are easy). The only real change that needs to be done is Ilya being used as the grail like in Fate instead of Shinji, which doesn't truly change anything.
Yes, it does, because if that were the case Rin wouldn't be in any danger (from Kotomine, anyway), and Shinji would still be a total dick (and alive...). Replacing Shinji with Ilya as the Grail would change quite a few things, actually, albeit not as much as the hypothetical "HF Good" end would need to.

Quote:
Also, Archer would need some prana at the end to prevent his disappearance. Those two minor tweaks, which don't ultimately affect the story, are quite easy to accomplish comparatively.
Except that Rin can't support two servants, Sakura is still stuck with Zouken and Rider is gone. HF is the only ending where an arbitrary number of servants can remain after the war.

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Ilya says "Hi".
How is Ilya a sequel hook?
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Old 2010-08-15, 11:57   Link #2440
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How is Ilya a sequel hook?
Same way Sakura would be. She'd have an unresolved story and has many fans.
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