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Old 2010-08-16, 14:27   Link #121
Oliver
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I think the text is meant to imply it uses Shannon's legal personhood, but then Shannon and Yasu being listed in the same list as separate by other characters mess that up.
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Old 2010-08-16, 14:34   Link #122
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Yasu.

Which is one more reason I think the answers given out straight are not really the answers.
Wait, wasn't Yasu having the same body as Shannon?


But a lot of things could not be the truth. Since EP8 is still coming...


For those who had finished the whole EP7, what has not be solved or revealed yet?
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Old 2010-08-16, 14:42   Link #123
ArcticHelm
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I read through it to the best of my ability, and honestly it has raised more questions... I think that EP7 seems to have complicated understanding of things for the time being, since it's difficult to say what is even vaguely trust worthy. If nothing else, I think it has given us a better understanding of the way that the game-board operates.
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Old 2010-08-16, 14:44   Link #124
Oliver
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Wait, wasn't Yasu having the same body as Shannon
It certainly leaves that impression, and yet Yasu and Shannon seem to be distinct social identities during the same period of time - it's short, but it's clearly there. There's other odd minor things that stand out. It's like the whole Yasu story is meant to produce the effect of ambiguity whether it confirms Shkanontrice, Shannontrice, or Pony Theory -- although, I haven't gotten to the end of that sequence yet, two and a half chapters left.
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Old 2010-08-16, 14:52   Link #125
Kitsu
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It certainly leaves that impression, and yet Yasu and Shannon seem to be distinct social identities during the same period of time - it's short, but it's clearly there. There's other odd minor things that stand out. It's like the whole Yasu story is meant to produce the effect of ambiguity whether it confirms Shkanontrice, Shannontrice, or Pony Theory -- although, I haven't gotten to the end of that sequence yet, two and a half chapters left.
What bothers me is that at least one time I think one of the seven sisters refered to both. She said Yasu and Shannon. I will have to look that up but I'm pretty sure on that.
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Old 2010-08-16, 14:56   Link #126
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Spoiler for Yasu/Shannon/Beatrice:


The real reason of the disaster, mainly due to the trigger of the challenge to the family, isn't fully explained in ep7. We know that it has something to do with Battler's sin, of forgetting his "promise", and his return right on the 6th year. The only thing I can kind of speculate is George's proposal at the same timing of Battler's return, which seems to trigger something.
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Old 2010-08-16, 14:59   Link #127
Rias
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Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
What bothers me is that at least one time I think one of the seven sisters refered to both. She said Yasu and Shannon. I will have to look that up but I'm pretty sure on that.
That's also something that bugged me. I was looking out for that from the start of Claire's narration, and it only happened once. It was after the key-checking scene, if I recall correctly. Every other time before that, the other servants don't seem to be talking/responding to Shannon at all.
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Old 2010-08-16, 15:17   Link #128
Kurizu204
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I quite enjoyed ep 7.
The doll scene was hella creepy i was like o.o.
not entirely sure on ts significance though.
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Old 2010-08-16, 15:18   Link #129
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It proves somebody on this island is a real prick.

Nothing new, in other words.
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Old 2010-08-16, 15:47   Link #130
marebito
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As for the whole evil Kyrie thing... Will already said he won't accept culprits without any hints and foreshadowings concerning the motive because instead of a mystery story this would simply be one of the numerous fantasies around the closed cat box called Rokkenjima.

And we ourselves as players can think of as much possibilities as we want, so this can not be seen as the aim of the whole game and I think scattering all illusions and making this a proper mystery story in the end was the anticipated result all along, the chiru-kanji in the title of the 'answer' arcs (or scattering arcs, so to speak) already indiciated this from EP5 on... not to mention that we are supposed to be able to solve the mystery after EP4...

Apart from that... as always, right? New answers, new questions, strengthened theories, discarded theories... Same old Umineko. Not my favorite Episode though. The beginning with Will's deduction and the description trick and of course the tea party were neat, but the whole Lion/Yasu/Shanon/Beato-background was a bit drawn-out IMO. Confirmation of certain aspects was needed and welcome, but some of the drama was a bit tedious (even though it's kind of ridiculous to mention this now after all those episodes...).
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Old 2010-08-16, 16:29   Link #131
IvanGS
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Ok real quick question for those of you who have managed their way through it.

Is it true that in the Tea Party, when Bern mentions she's not the GM, that she states in red that what occurred were the actual events on the real Rokkenjima, and that there was no GM since it was reality?

If so, does that make the closed rooms, stakes, all those mysteries a moot point since they're all just dolled up fictions?

I mean, I guess according to the red, they should still be solvable, but ultimately are pointless?
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Old 2010-08-16, 18:04   Link #132
Sentou
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To be fair, with Kyrie, she's always been OBSESSED with Rudolf, but her motives have never made it clear that it is because she loves him or anything. Likewise, there's never been anything to foreshadow that she did love Ange or was a particularly excellent mother.

Let's face facts here. This is a MURDER mystery. Murderers are not good people. They may be crazy people, they may be understandable, but never are they GOOD.

Pieces can't act against their nature, we've been told this and we've used this time and time again to come to conclusions. Hell, it's why Kyrie as the culprit has been suspected so long before this.

The issue here seems to be that people wanted Kyrie to have some profound and deep reason for slaughtering a bunch of people, instead of mere greed. But that wasn't the case, it would seem.

Right now as things stand episode 8 has two ways of unfolding.

The first being that we get a good end somehow. This is more likely than you think, because Will was a huge advocate of creating a happy ending. If this occurs, we needn't worry about Kyrie being the culprit, because everyone will be alive.

The second is that Battler's versions of events give different motives, but that means little to nothing. Everyone would still be dead at the end, barring Eva, so who cares if it was because of love?

I'm leaning towards a GOOD END myself.

What did Battler look at? A boat. What is very helpful when it comes to getting off of islands with a tendency to explode?

A boat.
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Old 2010-08-16, 19:32   Link #133
LyricalAura
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Alright, I finished reading up to chapter 2. A catalog of abnormalities:

Chapel structure
The original chapel doesn't have an entrance hall, a waiting room, or an honored guest room. Not only have events been spliced into this world, but it looks like bits of the mansion have been grafted onto the building too. Like Will said, this game board shouldn't be mistaken for anything remotely like a proper world.

Rosa's testimony
According to Rosa, after Beato died, she ran through the forest until stumbling across a familiar lion statue. Eva immediately assumes it's one of the ones in front, but Rosa corrects her and says it was behind the chapel.

The emphasis on the discrepancy is odd. What's the narrative point of there being another lion statue behind the chapel? Was it moved around to the front in the intervening years?

Will crashing Shannon
Shannon said that the person who ordered that only one servant be at the reception desk at a time is "the person who has the authority to give me orders", but for some reason couldn't reveal who that was. Then when Will said he wanted to speak with that person, she said: "Negotiating with that person is impossible. They have the authority to give us orders." It sounds like Will is included in "us", so I'm guessing that the person in authority must be the game master, Bernkastel.

Then did Shannon lock up when threatened with the spectator's authority because Bern had laid down a red truth to keep her and Kanon from being seen together?

Shannon's demeanor
At the beginning of her talk with Will, she seemed very nervous about the whole Leon problem and wanted to know what was going on. But as soon Will started asking for Kanon, it was like someone flipped a light switch, and all of a sudden she was cheerful. And after the lockup, she didn't show a trace of tension while talking with Leon, and seemed to have completely forgotten her earlier conversation with Will.

Is it possible, in this screwed-up patchwork world, that she was being directly controlled by one of the witches to shut down Will's interrogation?
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Old 2010-08-16, 19:36   Link #134
Oliver
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Is it possible, in this screwed-up patchwork world, that she was being directly controlled by one of the witches to shut down Will's interrogation?
Will certainly seems to think it is. Later, when he tries to ask Maria about Ange, Maria suddenly locks up, says she's thirsty and runs away. Will thinks it's like the gamemaster moved a piece out from under his threat.
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Old 2010-08-16, 20:30   Link #135
Used Can
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Lion not knowing Shannon/Kanon in the beginning makes sense, given the back story of who Lion is.
I know, since happy-world Lyon never lived in Fukuin. However, if Shannon and Kanon were servants at the mansion, then Lyon should know them. This is why I said I find it confusing. I'd just settle with saying that Shannon and Kanon (i.e. the ones we know) never really existed and that they were Yasu's creation. However, if they're Yasu's creation, then Shannon and Kanon shouldn't exist in Lyon's world. Now, I could always take that as meta-shenanigans, but whilst it was impossible for Will to see Shannon and Kanon together, thus heavily implying Shkanon, there was no problem if he saw Lyon along with any of them.

The only explanations I could come up with would be that since Lyon and Yasu lived different lives, they are different people, thus Will can see Lyon together with Shannon or Kanon, because Lyon isn't the one who created them, and the Shannon and Kanon we saw in Lyon's world are not real. That, or Shkanon and Lyon/Yasu are different people altogether (i.e. they don't share the same body).
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Old 2010-08-16, 20:35   Link #136
Oliver
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Will's catchphrase "Don't think too hard about it, you'll get a headache" sounds like very solid advice in this case I'm afraid.

I call meta-shenanigans and maintain that Bernkastel is at least heavily stacking cards to tell the story she wants to tell, whether it has any relation to truth or not.

EDIT: Notice that according to Ep6, Gamemaster's job actually contains two functions.
  1. Write the story.
  2. Interact with the player as they interact with the story.
These functions can be distributed between multiple entities.
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Old 2010-08-16, 20:38   Link #137
TheForsaken
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I think the world Will is trapped by Bern is not a proper world but a mixed of both worlds where Leon exists and doesn't exist. That's why Leon and Shanon/Kanon can appear at the same time.

Jessica and Maria knows about the legend of the witch that shouldn't exist in Leon's world as well, and they have a memory of the world that doesn't have Leon.
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Old 2010-08-16, 20:40   Link #138
ArcticHelm
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Yeah... and the story can be altered on the fly and/or warped into a mesh of 1 in 100,000,000,000 odds scenarios. My brain hurts, a lot. D:
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Old 2010-08-16, 20:41   Link #139
Kaiba
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@Rias: don't your spoilers fundamentally prove that

Spoiler for big potential spoiler:
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Old 2010-08-16, 20:44   Link #140
Oliver
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It's even more amusing. It's possible to distribute the writing function between an arbitrary number of entities and dump the editing on the guy who has to do the interaction function. This way it is possible for a story to have any number of entities who can be called "Gamemaster", in a fashion.

What I think does happen in this particular case is that Bernkastel wrote her story, liberally swiping pieces of kakera all over, but left the conducting part to someone else - not like Will ever did anything unexpected anyway. As far as I can see, he was railroaded for the entire duration up to Claire story and I expect this holds afterwards as well.
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