AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-08-16, 20:52   Link #141
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Will's catchphrase "Don't think too hard about it, you'll get a headache" sounds like very solid advice in this case I'm afraid.

I call meta-shenanigans and maintain that Bernkastel is at least heavily stacking cards to tell the story she wants to tell, whether it has any relation to truth or not.
Yeah, I guess that's how it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForsaken View Post
I think the world Will is trapped by Bern is not a proper world but a mixed of both worlds where Leon exists and doesn't exist. That's why Leon and Shanon/Kanon can appear at the same time.

Jessica and Maria knows about the legend of the witch that shouldn't exist in Leon's world as well, and they have a memory of the world that doesn't have Leon.
I think I can sort of roll with this, since I did find Maria and Jessica knowing about Beatrice being really odd, since they shouldn't know about that in Lyon's world.

However, I still don't know if I want to roll on the whole "since Lyon exists and doesn't exist at the same time, s(he) can be see along with ShKanon". If we go by the idea that ShKanon is Yasu's creation, then: If happy world Lyon exists, then ShKanon shouldn't, and if happy world Lyon doesn't exist then Shkanon should. So, if this is a mixture of both worlds, then the person we're looking at should be happy world Lyon and sad world Lyon (i.e. Yasu) at the same time, thus this person shouldn't be able to be seen around ShKanon, no?

I guess I'm just over-thinking it.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline  
Old 2010-08-16, 20:55   Link #142
ArcticHelm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
I'm still trying to figure out the Yasu business. :|
ArcticHelm is offline  
Old 2010-08-16, 20:58   Link #143
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
By the way, does anyone believe Asumu and the other Battler are still wild cards?
How did sad world Lyon know about the truth behind that incident?
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline  
Old 2010-08-16, 21:03   Link #144
Rias
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
@Rias: don't your spoilers fundamentally prove that

Spoiler for big potential spoiler:
Spoiler for hinted at ep7:
__________________
Rias is offline  
Old 2010-08-16, 21:28   Link #145
ArcticHelm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Spoiler for EP7 Character Inquiry:
ArcticHelm is offline  
Old 2010-08-16, 22:03   Link #146
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Likewise, there's never been anything to foreshadow that she did love Ange or was a particularly excellent mother.
Ange never said Kyrie was a bad mother. She mentioned how Kyrie went along with the situation and took Ange to see Battler, how she planned gifts in advanced for her daughter's birthdays, kept her away from the Sumadera family (excluding her father, who is the only good person seen in that family).

This is my problem with the tea party and Kyrie's comments. We are never led to believe in the past episodes that Kyrie hated Ange, only that she held resentment towards Battler. So this game suddenly turning around and showing that doesn't make sense to me. Rudolf is even more confusing because how he seems to be okay with Kyrie slaughtering people, but in EP 6 he was crying because he thought Kyrie and Battler were dead.
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline  
Old 2010-08-16, 22:16   Link #147
Kite22
Wielder of the Bracelet
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Age: 25
Send a message via AIM to Kite22
Well in the Sea of Kakera their maybe a world where Kyrie and Rudolf resent everyone, after all Bern takes the smallest possibility and turns it into a reality for her own amusement. They may only have a 0.00001% chance of happening but that's all she needs.
Kite22 is offline  
Old 2010-08-16, 22:19   Link #148
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Notice that this still requires for Bernkastel to break the starting condition boundaries commonly believed to be imposed on Beatrice's game.

After all, they don't just have to start hating everybody now, they need to have always hated everyone.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline  
Old 2010-08-16, 22:26   Link #149
Arachanox
Trust the red.
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Guest House
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Notice that this still requires for Bernkastel to break the starting condition boundaries commonly believed to be imposed on Beatrice's game.

After all, they don't just have to start hating everybody now, they need to have always hated everyone.
Maybe they have always hated everyone, but this motive is suppressed in the other episodes out of fear (that others are dying around them first, or for other reason X). Perhaps Bern's world without love has the conditions needed for their hatred to boil over.
__________________

Thanks to Tjaard!
Arachanox is offline  
Old 2010-08-16, 22:29   Link #150
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachanox View Post
Maybe they have always hated everyone, but this motive is suppressed in the other episodes out of fear (that others are dying around them first, or for other reason X). Perhaps Bern's world without love has the conditions needed for their hatred to boil over.
To demonstrate Leon, Bern already had to go find a world with a point of divergence 19 years out in the past, which is well outside the boundaries -- we commonly think that Beatrice's games feature worlds identical up to at least 24:00 of the 3rd October 1986, don't we.

If they aren't, well, that changes a bloody lot.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline  
Old 2010-08-16, 22:30   Link #151
Disz
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Floor eh duh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
To demonstrate Leon, Bern already had to go find a world with a point of divergence 19 years out in the past, which is well outside the boundaries -- we commonly think that Beatrice's games feature worlds identical up to at least 24:00 of the 3rd October 1986, don't we.

If they aren't, well, that changes a bloody lot.
Bern went back and time and made Kyrie and Rudolf murderers to piss off Ange?
Disz is offline  
Old 2010-08-16, 22:33   Link #152
k//eternal
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
To demonstrate Leon, Bern already had to go find a world with a point of divergence 19 years out in the past, which is well outside the boundaries -- we commonly think that Beatrice's games feature worlds identical up to at least 24:00 of the 3rd October 1986, don't we.

If they aren't, well, that changes a bloody lot.
Come to think of it, who told us that? Wasn't it effectively Bern?
k//eternal is offline  
Old 2010-08-16, 22:35   Link #153
Kite22
Wielder of the Bracelet
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Age: 25
Send a message via AIM to Kite22
Yes, after all this is Bern we are talking about and it's something she would do if she got some amusement out of it. Nothing like making a girl think her parents where sick bastards who hated her and her brother and couldn't wait to kill her family and then try and pass it off as the Absolute Truth of what went down on Rokkenjima.
Kite22 is offline  
Old 2010-08-16, 22:41   Link #154
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
Come to think of it, who told us that? Wasn't it effectively Bern?
I'm not sure, but I expect this isn't relevant.
If the starting conditions are not identical up until a certain observable point in time, the game records cannot be used jointly to solve the mystery, as they refer to worlds which diverge at an unknown point of time in the past, and none of them contains sufficient information to be solved alone. So for it to be solvable we have to assume they diverge no earlier than a certain time that is shown as something other than a flashback - which is early morning of the 4th.

Leon's world very clearly disregards this rule, and even though it is mostly used as a storytelling device, breaking this rule at all casts doubt on the rest of the testimony.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline  
Old 2010-08-16, 22:42   Link #155
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disz View Post
Bern went back and time and made Kyrie and Rudolf murderers to piss off Ange?
No, she just picked a kakera that diverged years in the past where they have always been likely murderers to piss off Ange and show that her parents can be murderers.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline  
Old 2010-08-16, 23:03   Link #156
Arachanox
Trust the red.
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Guest House
Oliver, wasn't it already assumed that EP6 wasn't even a real game (Battler had discovered the truth in EP5), but just Battler giving Erika a chance to redeem herself? If so, then perhaps Bern hasn't "stolen" Beatrice's game board at all, but just created her own version. If so, she has access to create a point of divergence at any point in time...
__________________

Thanks to Tjaard!
Arachanox is offline  
Old 2010-08-16, 23:32   Link #157
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
I hope R07 keeps Rudolph and Kyrie as the culprits just to leave a sense of irony in the game, since Battler (and technically Ange too, in a certain fashion during 1998) was the detective.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline  
Old 2010-08-16, 23:38   Link #158
Disz
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Floor eh duh?
Or George..
Disz is offline  
Old 2010-08-17, 00:15   Link #159
Mikachiru
test
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rias View Post
Spoiler for Yasu/Shannon/Beatrice:


The real reason of the disaster, mainly due to the trigger of the challenge to the family, isn't fully explained in ep7. We know that it has something to do with Battler's sin, of forgetting his "promise", and his return right on the 6th year. The only thing I can kind of speculate is George's proposal at the same timing of Battler's return, which seems to trigger something.
Wait...Are you serious? The Shkannon theory was correct? Or is this just speculation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disz View Post
Or George..
Naw, it couldn't of been the chubby man. Too obvious. XD
__________________
Mikachiru is offline  
Old 2010-08-17, 00:16   Link #160
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
We... don't know. As usual. It's not even self-consistent this time. It suggests it, then denies it, then brings it right back up again.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:36.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.