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Old 2010-08-17, 00:42   Link #161
LyricalAura
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I remembered another strange thing about the chapel scene with Shannon: Will and Bern were talking in the upper layer chapel, and Will remained there all the way up until Leon arrived. How did Shannon even hear them from the lower layer reception area in the first place, let alone actually get inside?

Maybe she was deliberately moved there by Bern to feed Will some information?
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Old 2010-08-17, 00:51   Link #162
Used Can
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So, I just finished the whole episode... C'mon R07, don't go for the perfect end, everyone is nice.
I liked Rudolph and Kyrie as the murderers.
Damn it Battler.
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Old 2010-08-17, 01:52   Link #163
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I don't care about everyone else!
I just want Ange to have a happy end. Let Battler come home!

Lol, not really. I'd be fine with a 17 survivor, or 0 survivor ending. As long as it's done well.

I'm really hoping against how the Tea Party went down.
Especially about
Spoiler for Tea Party:

One thing I though of though...

When George was handing out Battler's letters. What's the chance that he didn't give Shannon a letter that was actually there?
Like, he took his, and Shannon's. Then passed the rest out.

------------

I have some questions I hope someone with a better understanding can help me with though!

Spoiler for Yasu, and relationship between characters:


Spoiler for White text battle!:


Finally, they mentioned that problem with Battler's leaving wasn't that he left. But that he came back.
I didn't catch if they expanded on -why- Battler came back would trigger the catastrophe. I mean, I guess I can try to infer it for myself, but did they flat out mention the reason and did I miss it?

Last edited by Realus; 2010-08-17 at 02:13.
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Old 2010-08-17, 02:11   Link #164
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Realus, I believe it would be

Spoiler for White Text:


I think?
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Old 2010-08-17, 02:24   Link #165
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Realus View Post
When George was handing out Battler's letters. What's the chance that he didn't give Shannon a letter that was actually there?
Like, he took his, and Shannon's. Then passed the rest out.
I too thought of that possibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Realus View Post
Spoiler for Yasu, and relationship between characters:
Basically, it's how you put it. The one who solved the Epitaph and became Beatrice was Yasu. Then when she meets Kinzo, he calls her Lyon, because that's the name he intended to give her.

About Shannon during 1980's, it's possible there was a real Shannon at some point, but after she left, Yasu made up an imaginary one.

The miracle Lyon was the one from the happy world - i.e. the one in which Natsuhi decides to adopt that baby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Realus View Post
Spoiler for White text battle!:


Finally, they mentioned that problem with Battler's leaving wasn't that he left. But that he came back.
I didn't catch if they expanded on -why- Battler came back would trigger the catastrophe. I mean, I guess I can try to infer it for myself, but did they flat out mention the reason and did I miss it?
Basically, whenever Will says "幻は幻に" it means there's trickery to that scene. For example, for EP1's second Twilight, the door wasn't actually locked. It's the same for the chapel's door during EP2's first twilight.
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Old 2010-08-17, 02:43   Link #166
Rias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Realus View Post
I have some questions I hope someone with a better understanding can help me with though!

Spoiler for Yasu, and relationship between characters:
There's a lot of different versions of Beatrice, so you have to watch out which one you are talking about. Also, if Yasu does have multiple personalities, there exists many persona within.
Spoiler for ep7:
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Old 2010-08-17, 02:53   Link #167
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You forgot Gaap, who is the one that was originally called Beato by Yasu.
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Old 2010-08-17, 04:30   Link #168
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We have to remember that Virgilia/Kumasuwa was the former Beatrice,which means the first one to ever solve it was Kumasuwa.Which also means Kumasuwa passes the title.
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Old 2010-08-17, 04:45   Link #169
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disz View Post
We have to remember that Virgilia/Kumasuwa was the former Beatrice,which means the first one to ever solve it was Kumasuwa.Which also means Kumasuwa passes the title.
The epitaph was posted in 1984. Kumasawa never solved it. The first one to do it was Yasu.

All Kumasawa did, quite likely, was to introduce Yasu into the whole magic deal.
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Old 2010-08-17, 04:57   Link #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
All Kumasawa did, quite likely, was to introduce Yasu into the whole magic deal.
She probably also helped to write the epitaph, given her extensive notes on it.
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Old 2010-08-17, 05:13   Link #171
Used Can
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Yeah, that's possible. Considering she even had pictures about the chapel's door in her house.

Anyway, during EP7's Tea Party, was Battler's death confirmed?

Kyrie was set to kill Maria and Rudolph was supposed to convince Battler to join them or kill him if he refused. However, Eva killed Rudolph and then she killed Kyrie after Kyrie had killed Maria.

Do we have any info on Battler's status?
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Old 2010-08-17, 05:26   Link #172
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There is none. Actually, it is perhaps yet another mystery about Battler.
The point is that Battler sure took his time to join Rudolf, before the latter got revenge killed by Eva.

I first thought it was Kyrie who killed him, stalking behind him when he left the guesthouse (even if she put that test on Rudolf, perhaps she just didn't bother in the end), but the narration certainly didn't hint that one bit.

So it is very likely that Battler found something that distracted him or even made him avoid being killed. The problem is to figure what or... "who".
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Old 2010-08-17, 05:30   Link #173
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I should say that given the entire extent as to how Yasu apparently suffers from Dissociative Identity Disorder, even though many of the patterns do not fit the classic profile that R07 is apparently using for his own ends, it suddenly hit me that when you consider the possibility of a "controlling personality" (Yasu?) that has some degree of control over the subservient personalities (Shannon/Kanon?/Claire/Beatrice/etc.), it reminds me of a character from a video game:

Fei Fong Wong of Xenogears

Considering that the profiling for Fei is complete, similar patterns might be derived from them. Fei, and apparently Yasu, from their base personalities use a method of "layering" personalities on top of each other as a response to external stimuli. Yasu layers newly created personalities as a response to events around him/her, all the while a base personality is able to control the manifestations from behind the scenes.

Psychological speaking this is probably not unheard of. A strong omniscient personality governing them, like Fei did in the form of Id, would have had the ability to control not only who manifests when but also control the access of each personality to the collective memory pool of the individual: some might only have memories when they are the manifested personality, some might get bits and pieces, while the dominant controller has access to everything.

This might be the explanation as to how, throughout the games, there seems to be a radical shifting between personalities almost at will and yet hinted that the manifested personalities are not aware of each other, because a controller is consciously planning who is presented, when, how, for some means to an end.

Similarly to Fei, his original personality hid away and abandoned control and exposure to the sub personalities while still maintaining an observership role that can see the experiences of the other personalities but itself no longer made manifest. For Yasu, the suggestion of a hidden observer personality might not be far fetched, as a personality who has abandoned an active role and let the other personalities take control.

The question becomes, if the real Yasu of 19 years ago that had been abandoned has locked himself away, which of the other personalities is the dominant one?

Again, this is all speculation on the assumption the multiple personality shtick is valid.

Crap I may be on to something here. Time to finish the game and get my psychiatry textbook.
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Old 2010-08-17, 05:37   Link #174
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
There is none. Actually, it is perhaps yet another mystery about Battler.
The point is that Battler sure took his time to join Rudolf, before the latter got revenge killed by Eva.
Yeah, I thought the same thing. We see him going out of the guesthouse and complaining, but he never reached the chapel.

Either way, perhaps this confirms that Battler is Amakusa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I first thought it was Kyrie who killed him, stalking behind him when he left the guesthouse (even if she put that test on Rudolf, perhaps she just didn't bother in the end), but the narration certainly didn't hint that one bit.

So it is very likely that Battler found something that distracted him or even made him avoid being killed. The problem is to figure what or... "who".
I wonder if Lyon did it, but all the same, Kyrie supposedly killed her. I don't think she can be that bad of a shooter and fail twice.

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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Psychological speaking this is probably not unheard of.
I've actually asked several people who I believe knowledgeable on the subject, and all of them have told me DID doesn't work this way. At best, and this is rather rare, you get a personality that may be aware of the other ones, but that's as far as it goes.

If Yasu indeed suffers from DID, then Ithink we'll just have to accept that this is R07's own take on the matter and changed the way it works, as most writers in fiction do.
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Old 2010-08-17, 06:24   Link #175
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1 question coming from a concerned citizen. lol.

Does Will & Lion actually die in the end?
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Old 2010-08-17, 06:30   Link #176
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I don't know where I should post this into, but...

On a talk show, Ryukishi mentioned that Umineko would be complete this winter.

Whole text in Japanse is here.
I believe you guys already read EP7 can read this.
Sorry for my laziness.

Spoiler for size and Higurashi:

Last edited by Dormeur; 2010-08-17 at 06:40. Reason: typo
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Old 2010-08-17, 06:38   Link #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I've actually asked several people who I believe knowledgeable on the subject, and all of them have told me DID doesn't work this way. At best, and this is rather rare, you get a personality that may be aware of the other ones, but that's as far as it goes.

If Yasu indeed suffers from DID, then Ithink we'll just have to accept that this is R07's own take on the matter and changed the way it works, as most writers in fiction do.
Yeah as I said classical DID does not work this way, but the formation mechanisms have some similarities. Personality formation under this disorder stems from stimuli and not from a conscious control of personality formation that goes so far as to be able to create completely discrete and different entities at one's desire. If this was even remotely possible then you'd think a lot more people would be capable of this.

Assuming R07 plans to stick to actual psychiatry, the most probable explanation of an overarching personality would be purely incidental, as in while we could consider Yasu as the core personality, it was only by pure chance that the core personality ended up being capable of being witness to the other personalities he formed as defense mechanisms to his experiences. Direct control is likely to be completely impossible even in fiction, and it is just as likely that whoever the more dominant personality is, his awareness at most only allows him to use the switching situations to his advantage even if he does not control them rather than being able to switch them in and out at will.

Now assuming Ro7 decides to go pure fiction and rewrite the concept for his own ends, then all bets are off.

But this doesn't erase the fact that even in real psychology, a person with DID can have one of the personalities to be more subjectively dominant than the rest. As I questioned before, who is the more dominant one? There are times when I don't even think Yasu is the dominant personality.
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Old 2010-08-17, 06:46   Link #178
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That's an interesting point Meo. I think it seems to imply that the Beatrice personality is dominant as it always knows what the others are thinking before even they do. They only seem to try to 'resist' when they have a full fledged love with George/Jessica, but they seem to be aware that even if they don't do what Beatrice wants it probably will not matter anyways. Thus they just say they'll ignore her as a form of resistance or try to disrupt her image.
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Old 2010-08-17, 06:58   Link #179
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Is that whole Kannon= Shannon thing confirmed by a red text?
I mean its obvious that she was Beatrice in EP one , but it somehow doesn't sound right...
There is a limit to naivety, even if we are talking about George....

It would work much better if it was the the other way around, but still questio

Edit: i also have a problem with some with it due to some Red-Blue conversations between Erika and Beato
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Old 2010-08-17, 07:08   Link #180
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
But this doesn't erase the fact that even in real psychology, a person with DID can have one of the personalities to be more subjectively dominant than the rest. As I questioned before, who is the more dominant one? There are times when I don't even think Yasu is the dominant personality.
Hard to say, but in EP7 we saw Yasu coming up with everything. So, I think it's safe to assume she is, but who knows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Is that whole Kannon= Shannon thing confirmed by a red text?
No, but it was made clear as day when Will asked Shannon to call for Kanon, and she BSOD'd.
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