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Old 2010-08-17, 07:13   Link #181
ArcticHelm
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I don't think we'll ever get red in regards to the sort of relationship between Shannon-Kanon-Beatrice. Following the logic of Beato's game, it seems unlikely that one could legitimately say they're the same person. This seems to be the very problem, there is more than one and it's necessary to get rid of the others. It is either very DID-like or as Lambda said, Beatrice is a grade A actor.
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Old 2010-08-17, 07:16   Link #182
MeoTwister5
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Well it is also possible that this entire DID Yasu thing is just R07 trolling the everloving shit out of everybody who supported the ShKanon theory by adding more personalities into the body and then deny everything in Ep8.

Also there are times when I even doubt that Yasu is EVEN the original personality of that body. It might even be possible that the original, core personality is none of those presented thus far. Bern is a bitch. I'll finish the game first before I make a real conclusion.

Summaries to follow later.
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Old 2010-08-17, 07:16   Link #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Hard to say, but in EP7 we saw Yasu coming up with everything. So, I think it's safe to assume she is, but who knows?


No, but it was made clear as day when Will asked Shannon to call for Kanon, and she BSOD'd.
BSOD?
Blue screen of death ?

The problem about EP 7 is:
EP 7 is how Bern/the Readers(or whoever the GM is) understands the truth.
To me EP 7 is a bit messy :/
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Old 2010-08-17, 07:17   Link #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Hard to say, but in EP7 we saw Yasu coming up with everything. So, I think it's safe to assume she is, but who knows?


No, but it was made clear as day when Will asked Shannon to call for Kanon, and she BSOD'd.
Hnnnggggg. So R07 gave up to ShKanon? Hnngggggg. Maybe she killed Kanon. Maybe she did it. >.>
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Old 2010-08-17, 07:19   Link #185
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Well it is also possible that this entire DID Yasu thing is just R07 trolling the everloving shit out of everybody who supported the ShKanon theory by adding more personalities into the body and then deny everything in Ep8.
That'd be sweet, this LyoYaShkanonTriClair&yourmothertoo has got a bit too out of control.

But personally I really liked how the baby from 19 years ago fit into the story as the real Beatrice.

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Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
BSOD?
Blue screen of death ?
Yeah, I'm not shitting you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
The problem about EP 7 is:
EP 7 is how Bern/the Readers(or whoever the GM is) understands the truth.
To me EP 7 is a bit messy :/
According to Bern, EP7 doesn't have a GM. It's just the hard truth.

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Originally Posted by Almazluverdis3 View Post
Hnnnggggg. So R07 gave up to ShKanon? Hnngggggg. Maybe she killed Kanon. Maybe she did it. >.>
Well, a real Shannon may have existed once, but well... I don't know.
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Old 2010-08-17, 07:19   Link #186
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Yeah it's quite messy. :/ Bern seems to have basically train-wrecked the game as an elaborate way of desecrating Beatrice one last time.
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Old 2010-08-17, 07:25   Link #187
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I personally have some ideas for the BSOD which are not really focused on DID, or are related to the DID but only for this scene alone, so I guess that it is very possible to read it in another way, especially for people who are thinking about it more than me. Well, I'll maybe talk about it later, I still need to put the finishing touches to all of this right now.
In fact to me this scene is a logic error to begin with, even without DID, damn authority and all of this. Shannon is starting to bug even before this.

And yeah, AC-Phoenix is right, even the fact that there is an ep8 is showing that there are still errors here.
We knows that Ep7 contains one merciless answer. But we don't know on which part. Basically ep7 is a massive "yes but no but yes" for almost everything, especially when you are reading it a second time.
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Old 2010-08-17, 07:28   Link #188
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I just realized something: was it ever even confirmed in any way just what the sex of Natsuhi's adopted child/Beatrice's child/etc. is?
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Old 2010-08-17, 07:32   Link #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
That'd be sweet, this LyoYaShkanonTriClair&yourmothertoo has got a bit too out of control.


Well, a real Shannon may have existed once, but well... I don't know.

You know, EP7 is messed up. Really messed up. So I guess there is not such person as "Kanon". But in this messed up kakera, "Yoshiya" may have been adopted by people, rather than becoming a servant. Thus leading Shannon to cover that up.
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Old 2010-08-17, 07:34   Link #190
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Abrupt realisation. Call me silly if you like, as I'm actually inclined to discount large chunks of Ep7 anyway, but I'll analyse it all the same.

The Claire narrative isn't actually describing Shkanontrice. It's describing a variation of Pony Theory, i.e. that Beatrice has a physical body of her own!

Here's the logic:
  1. Gaap exists circa 1976, even though she only gets her name in 1984, and plays pranks on Yasu.
  2. Gaap must be among Maria's list of people seen together with Beatrice, which is Shannon, Kanon, Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo.
  3. Genji is Ronove, Kumasawa is Virgilia. Kanon did not exist on the island in 1976 in any fashion, so he's out. That leaves Shannon and Nanjo to be Gaap.
  4. Gaap would have to know about Shannon's love trouble. Which would mean that if Nanjo is represented by Gaap, he didn't lift a finger to help her, which I find impossible.
  5. Shannon cannot be Gaap if Shannon is Beatrice. But there's nobody else left. Therefore Shannon is Gaap.
  6. Therefore, the only possible way all people on Maria's list can be seen together with Beatrice and for Gaap to have a vessel is for Gaap to be Shannon and for Beatrice to have her own body.

The difficulty with the number of people on the island can be solved with Shkanon.
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Old 2010-08-17, 07:35   Link #191
Used Can
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
I just realized something: was it ever even confirmed in any way just what the sex of Natsuhi's adopted child/Beatrice's child/etc. is?
No, that's one of the things that was brought up in EP7 when Will asked Lyon what was her sex. Lyon refused to answer.
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Old 2010-08-17, 07:44   Link #192
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No, that's one of the things that was brought up in EP7 when Will asked Lyon what was her sex. Lyon refused to answer.
What Yasu's sex was? Leon actually doesn't have a reason not to answer that since he's supposed to be helping Will, gender ambiguity aside.
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Old 2010-08-17, 07:47   Link #193
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I just remembered...
Didn't they say that every person can only claim their own name and that there are no name tricks or something equal in EP 6?

That Shannon = Kanon thing somehow contradics
There are 17 people on Ro...
Even if you join us, there are still only 17 people on Ro...

note: Erika specifically requested a definition of 'people' and persons' in EP 6
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Old 2010-08-17, 07:51   Link #194
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That's one of the "quite useful" points of Shkannon...
In short " They are the same person in fact, so it don't count", but in the other hand "they are not the same person because a personnality can be ca person" when it is needed... Or why I don't like this theory.
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Old 2010-08-17, 07:58   Link #195
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That's one of the "quite useful" points of Shkannon...
In short " They are the same person in fact, so it don't count", but in the other hand "they are not the same person because a personnality can be ca person" when it is needed... Or why I don't like this theory.
The question is whether Erika really increased the people count in the first place.
If she was already dead when she got washed up she wouldn't.
Thats why the red truth eventually killed her.

Remember what Knox said to Beatrice: "I got permission to use a red truth to deny your existance."

So the second red would be a red truth to deny Erika's.

That would restore the peoplecount back to 17, and Shannon/Kannon wouldn't be able to be in the same body.

In short: Erika is the reason why I can't believe in Shkannon.
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Old 2010-08-17, 08:01   Link #196
Used Can
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What Yasu's sex was? Leon actually doesn't have a reason not to answer that since he's supposed to be helping Will, gender ambiguity aside.
Yasu's sex was never revealed either. The sex of the baby from 19 years ago was left in ambiguity on purpose. This much was made clear when Will mentioned that Zepar and Furfur represented that ambiguity.

The sad thing is that Yasu/Lyon's sex is not something we need to know to solve this game, and R07 may never answer that question.
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Old 2010-08-17, 08:17   Link #197
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Now here's another question to ponder: If the Beato that Rosa met is likely the second Beato and not the first, how did the original get a daughter?

If it is suggested that Kinzo fathered a child with the original to get the second, it was also suggested that if Kinzo is the father of Yasu then Kinzo impregnated his own daughter (Beato 2).

Therefore, Kinzo is into incest.
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Old 2010-08-17, 08:18   Link #198
ryuusei
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Erm i don't think anyone has brought this up yet (atleast not in this thread) But in ep6's tea party during the wedding scene wasn't there a silver ring with a crest? More specifically it was stated it was for the ' wife of the territory lord'.

More curious, is that it was given by (Lord)Battler although it would have been a meta scene.

and for the discussion about ep7's tea party, if it was the legit version of ep3, shouldn't the death order have been the same?

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If it is suggested that Kinzo fathered a child with the original to get the second, it was also suggested that if Kinzo is the father of Yasu then Kinzo impregnated his own daughter (Beato 2).

Therefore, Kinzo is into incest.
What if Beatrice 1 was already pregnant before meeting Kinzo? Being pregnant would have made it difficult for her to move around post the submarine scene perhaps ?
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Old 2010-08-17, 08:19   Link #199
Oliver
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Therefore, Kinzo is into incest.
Will says as much. They actually highlight that multiple times.

I think a more important question is when did Beatrice-2 get pregnant, since Rosa's story implies she doesn't even know what being pregnant means.
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Old 2010-08-17, 08:23   Link #200
MeoTwister5
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Will says as much. They actually highlight that multiple times.

I think a more important question is when did Beatrice-2 get pregnant, since Rosa's story implies she doesn't even know what being pregnant means.
She had to have given birth before she died after meeting Rosa. We... COULD draw parallels to Beatrice's ignorance about the world and sexual health in general to...those cases in the media of men locking up their family's and engaging in incest...

A disgusting thought but very probable.
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