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Old 2010-08-17, 05:46   Link #21
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
Keep in mind, she's saying this in response to Japanese "fans" who used "foreign websites" to watch it rather than buy it, which does affect things more directly than foreign fans doing the same.

And what kind of jerk do you have to be to write to the author and tell them about how you're avoiding paying for it while saying how much you like it?
Yeah, I have to agree with you here.

It is important to keep in mind that her announcement is aimed mostly, if not entirely, at the domestic Japanese market.

And writing an author to tell them about how you're avoiding paying for their work while saying how much you like it is indeed facepalm worthy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
I appreciate the manga-ka's sentiment and most of her points are valid.

What I DON'T like is that blame is being put squarely on consumers. Not good business practice. If people are just going to rave on like the industry itself has nor blame for this, they're kidding themselves. The same way the music industry was last decade. We all remember that fiasco.

How about thinking WHY people resort to piracy?

1. Money. Some people will be daring enough to prioritise luxury over essentials like food. Most won't. And for those living tight, they'll only do it once in a blue moon. When those type of people can afford in, generally they will go and buy it for real.

2. Reading/viewing format. Some like paper/ther TV. Some want it on their screen. We live in a technological age where the computer can perform the roles that used to take several appliances/objects to do. Not everyone will want to read on paper/the box. If you're going to keep it to there, you're losing potential customers.

3. Some people are just pricks. As long as there is intellectual property and humans still exist, there will be those that steal. Always have been, always will be. Those people you can't consider as lost sales, but more what they might do with the material itself.

4. Quality of material. Over the last few years, I've noticed glossy covers being removed by several manga companies for flimsy paper ones; the quality of the paper itself going downhill; errenous/ruining the source translations. Yet the price remains the same or has increased. In anime, you can now show something in 1080p, even 720 is still acceptable, yet 240/360 is still dominant in streaming and durability of DVDs/Blu-Rays will ALWAYS be an issue. Why would people want to pay top dollar for a product that is inferior?

5. Licensing per country. Only a fraction of titles make it out of Japan to the West. Reading a title that you can't buy may not be morally correct but I wouldn't exactly call it lost sales.

6. It is a hard life to work within the industry. Face the facts - being a manga-ka, their assistant(s), an animator or director - it isn't exactly profitable. Some animators get paid $3 US an hour...and it is well documented that unless you're a big name author/director, you're not going to get paid the big bucks. To make it in the industry is harsh. And lack of financial motivation leads to offshore sourcing for animation - leading to lower quality animation. Not exactly a good selling point...


So what can be done? (Suggestions, not golden solutions that will fix all. There is no fix-all for this. These are just ideas)

1. Decent quality online purchasing. There is a signifcant proportion that won't read manga on paper or won't watch anime on a disc. Give them the option for a pay-per download. It won't be for everyone, but at least it gives people an option and allows those preferring the electronic medium to access it. Technology needs to be utilised, not feared. Lest the manga/anime industries take a fatal turn like the music industry nearly did. And with the arrival of the iPad, it makes more sense than ever to try this medium. And an online system could REALLY help get past the time difference between availability in Japan and in the West.

2. Cost of product. $70US for 2 episodes of anime in Japan. It's financial suicide in some regards to be an anime fan in Japan. Yes, price needs to be proportional to sales. But making your fans perma-broke is insanity. Manga is $5 a volume in Japan, so that's fine. As for the West, anime is a lot more affordable but manga gets overpriced with shipping costs and the like. 10-12 in the US, 15-20 in other countries with the extra shipping.

3. Make it affordable to work in the industry. Japan is the most expensive country to live in, in terms of big cities. You can't expect people to be enthusiastic to live on the bare minimum. This one is a lot harder, though. 'The recession' - they've been in one for around 20 years and still are.

4. Try before you buy/accessibility. Seriously, if you're going to fork out substantial money on something, you'd want to know what you're getting yourself into. i.e. What is the product like? Either allow some sample viewing in stores or online. Samples on the product itself is a token effort at best. More of an issue for anime than manga, though.

5. Publishing/directing deals. The creators need incentive to do what they do. I found it appalling that the authors of Death Note were virtually broke after the series was finished - such a successful title and they're no better off?! No wonder they wrote Bakuman as such a parody of the industry in the aftermath. Crap publishing deal cost them - 20+ volumes and big sales + name are usually the triggers for the big money. Don't throw them a fortune until the sales are appropriate but don't leave them wanting, either. They're aren't many rich authors/directors out there. Not everyone can get to the Rumiko Takahashi or Hayao Miyazaki level.


That's my thoughts. Basically, try and fix the problem rather than lay full blame on customers or potential ones. The industry has glaring flaws that need to be fixed and needs to get with the times. And as for customers - if you can afford to buy a product you like - don't be a prick. BUY IT.
Good points.
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Old 2010-08-17, 06:25   Link #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And writing an author to tell them about how you're avoiding paying for their work while saying how much you like it is indeed facepalm worthy.
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Old 2010-08-17, 06:27   Link #23
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Originally Posted by Komari View Post
You bought it in Europe as a European product and an FBI warning comes up?
Well, it is the US version as there's no European version. Sorry, should've been more clear on that.
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Old 2010-08-17, 07:42   Link #24
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Heh, almost ironic that her annoyance is pinned on the fans when in reality she is just getting screwed by the industry she's in.
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Old 2010-08-17, 08:24   Link #25
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I don't really see why people keep pointing out that the announcement was made for Japanese people about filesharing anime in Japan.
from my experience, the whole fansubbers code of no longer distributing once it's licensed is long dead (and I've seen blogs and interviews to back that up). So what's really the difference between a Japanese person dwnloading anime or a foreigner downloading an anime that's already been dubbed? The producers, VAs, translators, etc all still lose money.

I think the big factor in not buying anime is the cost, and the fact that it is a complete luxury. Even when/if I do buy, it's generally just for the collection value of it (and by "value" I mean sentimental value). Not because I plan to read or watch it again and again (certainly not enough to make it worth buying a $50-70 boxed set)
But the way I see it, is that in the long run I have helped support the anime industry. I've bought anime related products in at least 4 countries...even if each item wasn't that much, my buying helps contribute to figures which translate to more chance of more anime being brought overseas which snowballs into more people watching,buying,telling their friends, etc.
I've introduced people to anime, attended anime clubs, gone to (a) conventions...all which indirectly helps support the anime industry. I'm not pretending that it makes it ok to download or stream anime...but at least it's not a total loss for the industry, and if I were to buy every anime that I ever watched (or even lets say every anime that I enjoyed and watched a significant amount of it) then my hobby would quickly become much too expensive and I would have to stick to whatever comes across the air waves (kidsWB guys, yay!). Trust me, if I was still stuck watching pokemon and Yugioh I definitely would not have pored any money into the industry. Some money is better than no money...

one more note regarding it though, I actually stream most of my anime and only download the really good ones..and I absolutely don't mind watching two or three 30 second ads during the show if I know it's helping keep the industry and site running. There should be more of that available
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Old 2010-08-17, 08:58   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindovermatter View Post
I don't really see why people keep pointing out that the announcement was made for Japanese people about filesharing anime in Japan.
from my experience, the whole fansubbers code of no longer distributing once it's licensed is long dead (and I've seen blogs and interviews to back that up). So what's really the difference between a Japanese person dwnloading anime or a foreigner downloading an anime that's already been dubbed? The producers, VAs, translators, etc all still lose money.
Well, some animes never get licensed for foreign markets.

And, even the animes that do get licensed, often take a very long time to make it over to foreign markets as a legal product for sale with an English (or French, or Spanish, or Mexican, etc...) dub.

I firmly believe that a lot of what drives fansub downloads and anime filesharing, in non-Japanese markets, is a simple speed desire. In other words, the fans want to get to watch the anime as soon as possible.

This speed issue isn't really a factor for the local Japanese population, as they can just watch the anime on their actual TV stations the very moment it airs for the first time. Granted, some animes have abysmal time slots in Japan, but at least the option is there to simply turn on the TV, click over to one of your perfectly legal TV channels, and watch the anime the moment it becomes available for public viewing.
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Old 2010-08-17, 09:26   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindovermatter View Post
I don't really see why people keep pointing out that the announcement was made for Japanese people about filesharing anime in Japan.
from my experience, the whole fansubbers code of no longer distributing once it's licensed is long dead (and I've seen blogs and interviews to back that up). So what's really the difference between a Japanese person dwnloading anime or a foreigner downloading an anime that's already been dubbed? The producers, VAs, translators, etc all still lose money.
The thing is the R1 industry is not the anime industry. They have nothing do to with creating anime or manga, rather they just distribute it to a foreign market. It's not really clear how much of the money paid to these distributors finds it's way back to the Japanese companies, and even more importantly, the creators of the works. Thus, Japanese fans who can pour money directly into the industry are more important when talking about things like a mangaka being able to continue producing manga.
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Old 2010-08-17, 09:28   Link #28
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Makes me almost want to watch this sausage fest animu
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Old 2010-08-17, 11:37   Link #29
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Well I'm brittish. I dont think we have ANY anime TV channels, and Anime is too expensive to import from america. I usually watch animes and If I like them, and not too expensive, I buy them. For me, at least, If Anime developers dislike illegal viewing/downloading, they should actually sell the animes in my country.
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Old 2010-08-17, 11:54   Link #30
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Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
2. Cost of product. $70US for 2 episodes of anime in Japan. It's financial suicide in some regards to be an anime fan in Japan. Yes, price needs to be proportional to sales. But making your fans perma-broke is insanity. Manga is $5 a volume in Japan, so that's fine. As for the West, anime is a lot more affordable but manga gets overpriced with shipping costs and the like. 10-12 in the US, 15-20 in other countries with the extra shipping.
I totally agree with this point. Too overpriced. I'm English. manga for me is about 7-8 each. but they are sold in america for $10. 7-8 = $14-16.
A friend bought be a bleach manga for 8 ($16), yet on DVD, the entire box set series 1 costs only 12 ($24) So it puts me off buying manga. if manga was 3-4 not 7-8, I'd buy lots more.
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Old 2010-08-17, 12:36   Link #31
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Legal anime streaming websites in Japan... do they cost money or are they ad-supported like Hulu?

Also, it's interesting that the author is so young (26 according to wikipedia) and doesn't realize the futility of campaigning against piracy.
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Old 2010-08-17, 12:40   Link #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
4. Try before you buy/accessibility. Seriously, if you're going to fork out substantial money on something, you'd want to know what you're getting yourself into. i.e. What is the product like? Either allow some sample viewing in stores or online. Samples on the product itself is a token effort at best. More of an issue for anime than manga, though.
In Japan, they already have this since the anime airs on TV first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe4evr View Post
Another problem already present with the current options of Crunchyroll and Funimation's website/YouTube channel is that they're region locked because they don't care for anyone outside of the US. Even most anime that gets licensed in the US never make it to Europe.
It's not about "not caring", it's about not having the license for those other regions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Heh, almost ironic that her annoyance is pinned on the fans when in reality she is just getting screwed by the industry she's in.
I'd be annoyed too if supposed fans kept writing to tell me aren't/won't pay for my work, despite loving it enough to actually write a message. Though I do agree, the industry itself is causing most of the issues, but that doesn't stop stupid fans from being stupid.
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Old 2010-08-17, 12:45   Link #33
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Most of what I would have said, has already been said. But yeah, I won't buy something unless I can try it out first. I like to know what I'm getting. I wouldn't have bought the Mai Otome Box set unless I watched it online for free, first.

And the creator isn't really going to see a dime of my money from that DVD box set sale, since it will all be eaten up by corporations and companies long before the trickle reaches back to him/her. Starving artists should first look to the companies that are bilking them. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't do much to help because when I buy things "officially" the various companies and corporations take 95% of it.

The corporation you signed with is doing more to pirate your work than your fans are.

But let's look at "pirates" and note that we have more than one category of them:
1. The people who will always take everything for free, regardless of money
2. The people who can't afford something, and so pirate it.
3. The people who can't legally buy something no matter how much they want it.

Sure, it's okay to dislike the first group. But for the second, their entertainment budget is set; the only way to get a sale out of them is to lower your price to where they can afford it. The last group really wants your product, but due to licensing, region-locked DVDs, or other nonsense, they literally *cannot* buy your product!

A black market will always supply what the consumer wants. You want to make money? Find out what your consumers want, and the price point that will bring in the most profit (and lowering prices CAN give you more profit as well as raise consumer awareness of you), and supply it better than the pirates can.

In short, innovate or die. We will not support buggy-whip manufacturers when the automobile is here. The game has changed; better learn to change with it.

You can't stop piracy, so learn to work with it. I know musicians who give away their music for free, and thus they become more famous than those who charge. With more fans, more people will come to see your concerts, buy your albums and other merchandise.

Find a new business model.
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Old 2010-08-17, 12:45   Link #34
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I download fansubs because I'm broke and homeless and bored.

I used to buy DVDs of series that I liked after watching the fansubs (and deleted series that I did not like). I'd usually keep the fansubs of series I like, though, and watch them instead of the DVDs (because 720p and fansubs are usually nicer than 480p and crappy commercial subs).

This isn't a normal thing for me. Usually I pay for whatever I want. But when the economy is in the shitter and dying of boredom is a real danger, you do what you can to keep from going insane.
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Old 2010-08-17, 12:46   Link #35
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I admit, I've DL'd several animes over torrents and such (Nanoha, GaoGaiGar, Shin Mazinger, s-CRY-ed, Haruhi, Mazinkaiser) and for the most part, it was to either A: See what just came out in Japan (Shin Mazinger), B: Preview the anime before I buy it (GaoGaiGar, Nanoha) or C: (my least favorite reason) because it's too expensive or I can't find it (the rest).

Personally, if I had the cash, I would use option B all the time DL to preview something before buying. But, I don't, since I'm rather poor at all times.

I *want* to support the anime industry more, but I can't afford to spend 50 bucks on a 13 episode series/season.

I'll spend 50-70 bucks on something like 72 episodes (All three seasons of Slayers), but not 50 for 13 episodes.
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Old 2010-08-17, 12:50   Link #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I used to buy DVDs of series that I liked after watching the fansubs (and deleted series that I did not like). I'd usually keep the fansubs of series I like, though, and watch them instead of the DVDs (because 720p and fansubs are usually nicer than 480p and crappy commercial subs).
That's the other thing; I notice a lot of fansubs are nicer and better than the official subs. And I dislike dubs.

If the translators offered a lower priced DVD that didn't have dubs, and instead made the subs a higher quality, then I'd buy it. The official Nanoha subs had some pretty bad points, so much so that I prefer the fansubs.

If you can't give me the product that I want to buy, then don't be so bent out of shape when someone else does. Especially since they are doing it for free. Provide a better product than the pirates that's more convenient, and people will beat a path to your door.
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Old 2010-08-17, 12:55   Link #37
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I own the R1 Nanoha and A's DVDs--bought both boxsets when they came out--and I lost the [DGz] fansubs when my desktop fried. I'm pretty upset about that because I can't find the fansubs anymore, and the subs on the R1 DVDs are pretty awful.
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Old 2010-08-17, 16:08   Link #38
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You know, this reminds me of something...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGM8PT1eAvY
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Old 2010-08-17, 16:47   Link #39
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Originally Posted by Metropolisforever View Post
You know, this reminds me of something...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGM8PT1eAvY
Win. Thread over. You can all go home now!

Thing is, most people know what they are doing isn't wrong, even if they can't articulate. Why? Because they were taught as kids that sharing is good. That if you have something, and you can make someone's life better at no real cost to yourself, then you should share.

Now we're trying to tell everyone that sharing is wrong. The average person knows that sounds funny.
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Old 2010-08-17, 17:54   Link #40
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Win. Thread over. You can all go home now!

Thing is, most people know what they are doing isn't wrong, even if they can't articulate. Why? Because they were taught as kids that sharing is good. That if you have something, and you can make someone's life better at no real cost to yourself, then you should share.

Now we're trying to tell everyone that sharing is wrong. The average person knows that sounds funny.
That's the dark soul of Capitalism, honey. ^_^
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