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Old 2010-08-17, 08:25   Link #201
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Therefore, Kinzo is into incest.
Well, you know what they say about incest... It's a game the whole family can play!
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Old 2010-08-17, 08:35   Link #202
Oliver
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I don't consider it particularly probable.
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Old 2010-08-17, 08:47   Link #203
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Overall it seems more like a vaguely probably farce by Bern to drag Beato's story around in some mud, but I'm not really sure what to think about a lot of things in this episode honestly.
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Old 2010-08-17, 09:24   Link #204
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
There is none. Actually, it is perhaps yet another mystery about Battler.
The point is that Battler sure took his time to join Rudolf, before the latter got revenge killed by Eva.

I first thought it was Kyrie who killed him, stalking behind him when he left the guesthouse (even if she put that test on Rudolf, perhaps she just didn't bother in the end), but the narration certainly didn't hint that one bit.

So it is very likely that Battler found something that distracted him or even made him avoid being killed. The problem is to figure what or... "who".
It's practically setting us up for "Battler was Amakusa all along and didn't reveal himself to Ange to preserve Eva's fantasy of her parents (which he knew was also a lie)"* in ep8. I'm not sure whether I buy that, but it basically sets up Battler and possibly "Beatrice" still being alive if there is only ever one 1998.

Though were that the case, we'd be seeing some kind of setup for a final showdown in 1998 come ep8, and I can't really figure who. If Bern were even remotely close to the truth, the culprit would already be dead, and while there's Okonogi, he's not really all that impactful on the aspects of the story we care about.

Unless Bern got it all wrong and the culprit also survived, of course, or an off-island mastermind, or something of the sort, but I'm not entirely convinced of any of that either.

* This is actually a variant of the Battler = Amakusa thing that doesn't make him out to be a gigantic dick, since if Eva assumed initially that Battler did not survive (or never knew it), she'd tell Ange that he was killed and if he shows up suddenly it's going to give her false hope. She might also still think he was in on it. The part where it's suggested Amakusa tried to get close to Ange several times but was kept from doing so by Eva, however, sort of makes me wonder whether, if this were true, they both knew about it. Which is eight kinds of depressing.

Of course it may also be complete bull.
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Old 2010-08-17, 09:37   Link #205
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Originally Posted by TheForsaken View Post
I think the world Will is trapped by Bern is not a proper world but a mixed of both worlds where Leon exists and doesn't exist. That's why Leon and Shanon/Kanon can appear at the same time.

Jessica and Maria knows about the legend of the witch that shouldn't exist in Leon's world as well, and they have a memory of the world that doesn't have Leon.
So in the end Bern just put every in her personal little kitty box by patchworking everything together from different Fragments and as its still closed of (as Will cannot get out it seem this ways) the duality in this realm is still keep intact til he solves the "case". And everybody is so confused in this realm because the human mind was never meant to perceive reality this way.

As funny as I wanted to make this sound it still makes an awful lot of sense. Actually that sounds more like a horror setting then funny now really imaging being trapped in there.

Also: I guess Bern GM road cone'ing Will sounds about right. After all he is shown very convince of his methods in the first scene and quite lawful but whenever weird stuff is happening later he seems to give up annoyed as if he knew he was an uphill battle against the will of the GM he cannot win.

I was wondering in the first place why Bern chose such a person totally rebelling against her intentions as a her new piece especially after making Erika so much in the likeness of herself. It's almost she NEEDED someone neutral and likable the readers would trust and accept to make her story work. Still by blocking all his options she keeps absolute control over the events.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rias View Post
There's a lot of different versions of Beatrice, so you have to watch out which one you are talking about. Also, if Yasu does have multiple personalities, there exists many persona within.
Spoiler for ep7:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
That'd be sweet, this LyoYaShkanonTriClair&yourmothertoo has got a bit too out of control.

But personally I really liked how the baby from 19 years ago fit into the story as the real Beatrice.


Yeah, I'm not shitting you.


According to Bern, EP7 doesn't have a GM. It's just the hard truth.


Well, a real Shannon may have existed once, but well... I don't know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Well it is also possible that this entire DID Yasu thing is just R07 trolling the everloving shit out of everybody who supported the ShKanon theory by adding more personalities into the body and then deny everything in Ep8.

Also there are times when I even doubt that Yasu is EVEN the original personality of that body. It might even be possible that the original, core personality is none of those presented thus far. Bern is a bitch. I'll finish the game first before I make a real conclusion.

Summaries to follow later.
So do we even have an official shorthand for this weird construction?
Thats really really getting ridiculous and IMO Ryu07 really is just toying with the reader here who have this urge to connect the dots no matter what.

It almost seems soon we need some of this massive character relation charts like those from the Nasuverse or Ranma to even get the facts straight for all this messed up characters.
(Well that could get funny if you would really put all the 50+ characters in it )

I guess Bern is just filling the gaps from what she found in earlier games / fan theories with messed up lies for the lulz.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
[...] it reminds me of a character from a video game:

Fei Fong Wong of Xenogears [...]
I think think we don't even need to look so far ... after all he already gave us good chunk of informations how multiple personalities / personas / whatever are working ingame ....and let's just for one leave this medical name tag slapping aside for this idea as I have no knowledge of this details anyways and when did fictions every really cared about getting the facts right for such specific disorders.

So lets just take what the story gave us: After all this 2 or 3 "personality" (which fit up to EP6) idea already was illustrated to great length with everything we learned about Maria in EP4.
After all she was always borderline showing two Marias "versions" with her all sweet/innocent/slightly retarded and her cackeling/raging/occultist scholar behavior but still those 2 very influencing each other. On the other side with Sakutarou we also get some kind of external persona as an imaginary friend showing mostly a contrast to her usual behavior (mostly in terms of childish behavior vs. rationality)

And thats really not that different from the Shkanontrice setup. After all Shannon / Kanon seem somehow like a much more severe form of split of interests and interpretations of the world than what Maria did. And Beato also somehow resembles what Sakutarou did for Maria, as she while still dealing with similar problems is what both of the servants could never be: mighty, independent and full with magic power to solve all problems.

Considering Maria even got this Sakutarou (as a boy) idea in a scene with Beato this may even be connected .... remember how Beato was so awestruck by Marias explaination.

So does this really need to be scientifically correct if it really makes sense from the build up ingame.
This Higurashi queen carrier / hive mind / hate plague / paranoia concept also wasn't ever remotely realistic from a biology research stand point but still it was ok for it made sense ingame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Now here's another question to ponder: If the Beato that Rosa met is likely the second Beato and not the first, how did the original get a daughter?

If it is suggested that Kinzo fathered a child with the original to get the second, it was also suggested that if Kinzo is the father of Yasu then Kinzo impregnated his own daughter (Beato 2).

Therefore, Kinzo is into incest.
You wouldn't be so shocked of you had read all those disturbing faking crap 2ch / 4chan made up before people really started confirming what was part of EP7.

But I also don't think incest will be part of the real answer... after all there is funny crazy and there is "Dude, seriously" crazy and I don't think he is going for that kind of dark revelation.

As I stated before he could tone this down by just making this Beatrice the 3rd some kid from the orphanage which absolutely no ties to the family (or a less twisted one). Considering losing his daughter Beatrice-2 he likely obsessed about to some tragic accident it seem reasonable he just ASSUMED this kid was really part of the family and gave it to Natsuhi in honor to his beloved Beatrice by making him/her the heir to the family. After all thats exactly Natsuhis version from EP5 about the baby.
That would still present a rather tragic and ironical development on several levels but its not soooo disturbing.

I guess thats Ryu07 giving us a "Take that" for theorycrafting about rape and incest and everything all the time to solve this riddle.
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Old 2010-08-17, 09:42   Link #206
Oliver
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I vote for Bern providing an incomplete bull.

That is, nothing of it is red-level truth. It's interpretation of truth based on hints and various research -- fan theories for us, own conclusion for Bern, whatever. Much of it happens to be true, just as much happens to be false. Bern seems to have built a supertheory she feels explains everything of note. The list of assumptions she makes for it to work contains ideas both true and false as related to Beatrice's original gameboard, and Bern does not actually red-truth-level know which of them is which.

As she does not "have love", (and explicitly says she doesn't, yet the love story plays a prominent part -- characters do have love, Bern does not) key pieces of information are missing which would reveal some of these assumptions as false and wreck the supertheory-level reasoning, even though they would only invalidate some of the component theories. The supertheory itself is sufficiently compelling for her that even though it contains small inconsistencies that make us doubt it, she prefers to overlook them.

The world she created is pieced together from various kakera with unknown points of divergence and Bern's own fiction , and has no actual relation to Beatrice's gameboard, it is explicitly a construct meant to present her supertheory to Featherinne. This is revealed when the epitaph solution is described and the actual name of Kinzo's hometown is explicitly given -- according to Bern herself, "the actual location is not spoken of in any of the kakera". Well, here it is spoken.
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Old 2010-08-17, 09:48   Link #207
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The whole love thing is interesting because it's fairly prominent and, in a few spots, even convincing (though not perhaps the parts Bern wanted to be such). But she explicitly says she's got none. So are we looking through a lens at a "love story" written by somebody who has seen a bunch of love stories but never understood them? That might explain why some stuff makes no sense, like the ridiculous lengths to which the Yasu stories go trying to justify Bern's concept of Battler's "sin" when it really just portrays Shannon as a gigantic selfish idiot. From Bern's point of view, selfishness and love may as well be the same thing, so she has no problem portraying Shannon as completely irrational in order to make the facts match.
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Old 2010-08-17, 09:49   Link #208
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Higurashi's use of the queen carrier and queen controller state is based on actual insight on the functions of the arthropod colony societies, specifically of ants and bees. The hive mentality and infective paranoia is also related to this and also has some relations to the herd mentality attributed to human mob formations, but this might be more on sociology than biology (I'm a biologist by training).

And before I forget here's some summaries.

This goes from when Will starts his questioning to Shannon's BSOD.

Spoiler for Summaries:

Last edited by MeoTwister5; 2010-08-17 at 10:40.
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Old 2010-08-17, 09:56   Link #209
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Sorry but why is it even considered here that it might NOT have been incest...?

It was made clear that Kinzo never loved his family in the main mansion as much as the child he had with Beatrice1 and that his wife he already had before he met Beatrice1 did not mean anything to him. Beatrice1 died by giving birth to her child which Kinzo therefore regarded as a reincarnation of Beatrice1. So the older this Beatrice2 got, the less Kinzo treated her like a daughter.

The word 犯す was even stated referring to what Kinzo later did to Beatrice2, so I don't see where there could be any misunderstanding. This was the whole reason why Genji and Nanji refused to reveal that Lion actually did survive because they did not know whether Kinzo would make the same mistake, but later in the Episode we see that Lion, or Beatrice3 especially after solving the epitaph, was brought to Kinzo eventually and Kinzo finally had someone who he thought he could apologize to... before finally dying and being prepared to go to hell...

The scene Lion sees in the tea party where his other possible self accuses Genji and Nanjo of not letting him die 19 years ago also pretty much underlines the possibilty of him being a hermaphrodite, or at least a male being with very effeminate traits, which he finds difficult to live with since he thinks he can't even love or be loved by someone. I am not sure whether incest might increase the probability of hermaphroditism or if Lion only has a very weak, effeminate body due to the accident he sustained as an infant. Not many things considering that were really proven, a lot was left open to (pretty much apparent) interpretation since the whole issue is a rather difficult topic.

It would be interesting though if R07 really meant it to be hermaphroditism since this does not occur that often in popular culture as far as I know and apart from that he would also sort of make fun of all the gender-related depiction tricks in japanese (meta-) mysteries that became more or less prevalent during the 3rd wave of (orthodox) mystery fiction.

Why Lion only has a little complex but does not seem as devastated in the world where he does not fall from the cliff can be answered by the different upbringing I guess. He was never treated as an unrelated child by Krauss and Natsuhi, Kinzo always pampered him since he was Beatrice2's child, so he must have become more self-confident in that kakera and could somehow deal with his different nature, which was also implied by himself when Will asked him whether he was male or female.

EDIT: Oh, so the missing red truth is the reason why this was not completely accepted as it was shown... Well, personally I think it would make sense since that could explain all the different personalities in one body which is then also counted as one body out of 17. And where would be the reason of the whole beginning of EP7 otherwise... Bern wanted Will to deduce that Lion and the witch from 1986 are 2 sides of the same coin and he only got to that conclusion after talking to all the characters, including Kinzo, Kumasawa etc.
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Old 2010-08-17, 10:05   Link #210
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Originally Posted by marebito View Post
Sorry but why is it even considered here that it might NOT have been incest...?
Because the conclusion that it was incest is predicated on several things which might not even be true:
  • That Beatrice-1 existed.
  • That Beatrice-1 had a daughter.
  • That Beatrice-2 was her daughter.
  • That Beatrice-2 was Kinzo's daughter.
  • That Beatrice-2 was ever pregnant or had a child.
  • That Beatrice-3 exists.
  • That Beatrice-3 was Beatrice-2's child.
  • That Beatrice-3 was Kinzo's child.
Stop. Think about it. It's a plausible sequence of events, but every step along the way must be true for the conclusion to actually work. What are the odds of all of that, when so little of it is substantiated by evidence even now?
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Old 2010-08-17, 10:09   Link #211
Digdri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Higurashi's use of the queen carrier and queen controller state is based on actual insight on the functions of the arthropod colony societies, specifically of ants and bees. The hive mentality and infective paranoia is also related to this and also has some relations to the herd mentality attributed to human mob formations, but this might be more on sociology than biology (I'm a biologist by training).
Yes right... even I know that those concept really exist in nature but to combine everything together in such a fashion and applying it to human who really don't necessarily work that way in such an extreme way is still really stretching the idea of believability.
But my point simply was biting in all this comparison to real world science may just be a dead end as this story primary needs to make sense and has to be consistent ingame. I just take it as a nice bonus if he really portraits this psychology stuff in ultra realistic fashion.
Well even Knox stated you mustn't include stuff that needs a "complex scientific explanation" so after all everything should already have been made clear through the details in the story.
Call it willing suspension of disbelieve / rule of cool / whatever but after all this "contradiction" while structuring the whole tale I'm just satisfied if all even is consistent, has an interesting truth to it and is understandable.

In terms of mathematics/logic/history/religion/occultism he already has proven that he is doing his homework. Let's see how far he really it works for psychology / biology and stuff
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Old 2010-08-17, 10:10   Link #212
Oliver
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I just stumbled on another anti-incest argument.
In chapter 9 of Claire's story, Beatrice concludes that the epitaph puzzle was prepared when the chapel was built. Which was simultaneously with the mansion.

Since, according to the submarine story, Beatrice-1 died giving birth to Beatrice-2, either Beatrice-1 or Beatrice-2 has to have been alive at the time the chapel was built. What exactly would be the point of having prepared the riddle if either Beatrice was around at the time of chapel construction?...
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Old 2010-08-17, 10:26   Link #213
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So now I get it: Kinzo was just for once taking to much advice from Genji... Hikaru Genji that is.... *shot*

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Old 2010-08-17, 11:07   Link #214
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Last batch of Summaries for today.

This is the entirety of Will's interview with Kinzo.

I stopped during the young Kinzo sequence since my brain is shot and I need to study.

Spoiler for Summaries:
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Old 2010-08-17, 13:09   Link #215
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I still have a hard time accepting that someone wants to screw over the family because of something related to a "marriage promise" made when they were like 10 years old.

Don't they just laugh it off and say "oh we were so young back then" or something?
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Old 2010-08-17, 13:15   Link #216
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As far as it goes, the legend of beatrice / Yasu Rion look like a red herring, a bit like rule Z in Higurashi.
There is still a lot of incompatibility sense with Ep 5 and 6, and obviously 1998 events.
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Old 2010-08-17, 13:26   Link #217
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Actually, there's a very... tenuous connection between the proposed crime and legend of the witch at all. The Tea Party scarcely suggests her role as anything more than a steward. Yet if we go by the first four episodes, it certainly appears that "Beatrice" has some manner of involvement in events, whether as noise or participant. It doesn't really add up, as Klash has sad.

Not to mention the ridiculous levels of unbelievable melodrama in the Yasu scenes generally. Oliver has alternately described it to me as "Dickensian" and "Vaudeville," and I can't disagree. It's like somebody was trying to connect as many dots as possible and didn't care how sappy or illogical the story needed to be.

Move over, Will: The one who killed Beatrice is whoever thought this crap was a good answer. But with ep8 still to come, I suspect (and hope) that ryukishi doesn't consider himself one of them... even though he wrote it.
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Old 2010-08-17, 13:41   Link #218
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Actually, there's a very... tenuous connection between the proposed crime and legend of the witch at all. The Tea Party scarcely suggests her role as anything more than a steward. Yet if we go by the first four episodes, it certainly appears that "Beatrice" has some manner of involvement in events, whether as noise or participant. It doesn't really add up, as Klash has sad.

Not to mention the ridiculous levels of unbelievable melodrama in the Yasu scenes generally. Oliver has alternately described it to me as "Dickensian" and "Vaudeville," and I can't disagree. It's like somebody was trying to connect as many dots as possible and didn't care how sappy or illogical the story needed to be.

Move over, Will: The one who killed Beatrice is whoever thought this crap was a good answer. But with ep8 still to come, I suspect (and hope) that ryukishi doesn't consider himself one of them... even though he wrote it.
I still hope EP 7 turns out as Berns imagination or 'teasing the readers for fun'.
Will's text 'A servant mustn't be the murderer' alone is really questionable, as Shannons corpse is the only one Battler never saw in EP 1.
We could now argue that Kanon's wasn't seen either, but Battler saw his injury.
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Old 2010-08-17, 13:45   Link #219
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If we were to trust Episode 7 content, Shannon isn't a servant, so she is not affected by Will's red.
That is because Shannon is originally Yasu Rion. And Yasu Rion was also acknowledged by Kinzo around 1984, and is "officially" the head of the Ushiromiya, even if it isn't public.

By this definition, she is no servant.
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Old 2010-08-17, 14:45   Link #220
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
If we were to trust Episode 7 content, Shannon isn't a servant, so she is not affected by Will's red.
That is because Shannon is originally Yasu Rion. And Yasu Rion was also acknowledged by Kinzo around 1984, and is "officially" the head of the Ushiromiya, even if it isn't public.

By this definition, she is no servant.
Which, of course, is a completely evasive and silly resolution, but since it's so very Bernkastel-like in its execution I can understand why she would advance it. I don't buy it for a second.

But it may be moot. People have long suspected that "Beatrice" isn't the culprit anyway. So it doesn't matter if Shannon or Yasu or whoever is or is not a servant; if they didn't do it, their status is irrelevant.

Unless, of course, Beatrice is the culprit...
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