AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-08-17, 16:45   Link #241
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Why has no one ever found the bomb before? If it's a trigger, who triggers it, and why? Is it necessary that the epitaph always be solved in every episode?
Why should anyone have found it? The trigger could easily have been by Beatrice.
As for the Epitaph being solved on every episode. We know that doesn't happen, and that's why Beato kills everyone. However, it seems the Epitaph was solved in the real Rokkenjima.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The closed rooms don't really touch on Kanon or Shannon half the time, save instances where they're directly involved. Again, are we suggesting those are all just noise outright?
What? Are we sure we played the same game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Fair point, but "Beatrice" need not be anybody. The letter could have been written by Kinzo himself for all it matters if all "Beatrice" needs to do is spur people on to solve the epitaph. All her problems and internal conflicts set up prior to that point seem wholly irrelevant. That can't be right, can it?
But in the end, we know it was Beatrice the one who wrote them.
Of course, Bern's game is not the full truth. We still need the full motive for why Beatrice would start this whole game, since this game was rather lukewarm on this matter. However, the foundations are there. All there's left is for us to think why (i.e. the love-including analysis), and then Umineko is over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
How the hell did she get out after Genji locked it?(note he used a brand new lock)
Easily, she was never there. Hideyoshi lied. He knew about the ring deal from some source and told George she was wearing it.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline  
Old 2010-08-17, 16:46   Link #242
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Even in EP6 it was quite clear that Battler was always #1. In fact, from EP1 onwards that's rather obvious when everyone but Battler is getting murdered. Why did Battler and Beato lost the trial? Because Battler disappeared. EP7 tells us Kanon was born soon after Shannon "gave her feelings" to Beatrice. Shannon fell in love with George and Kanon fell for Jessica. This happened because Battler disappeared for 6 years.

I don't really see any major contractions.
I don't see how you can't. There's too many things in this episode that make me go "Hmm, yeah, this makes s- wait a second..." Every time I feel like I might be satisfied with the advanced proposal, something makes me retreat. Some little thing. Lots of little cracks make the whole thing shatter.

Ep7 makes it unclear how Shannon or Kanon can "win." The conditions leading up to the present situation are, quite mysteriously, sliced out, and we see only the aftermath. Yet ep6 very explicitly suggests it's perfectly within their capability to win, and in fact one of them does so (and Beato is the first out of the running, too!). That doesn't square up.

And Kanon is so tangential that it hardly seems like he gets a fair shake at all. If he had an equal opportunity, why isn't he getting one here?
Quote:
But in the end, we know it was Beatrice the one who wrote them.
Um... do we? You're confusing "we know that" with "we just were told that." By freaking Bernkastel and several people we've never even met before.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-17, 16:50   Link #243
Klashikari
Swords•Maidens Maniac
*Graphic Designer
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 28
Send a message via Skype™ to Klashikari
Renall, did you really read the episode or you just go by summaries? Although a lot of Episode 7 are left in the dark, compared to other chiru episodes, this one certainly answers the most.
Klashikari is online now  
Old 2010-08-17, 16:51   Link #244
musouka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Why has no one ever found the bomb before? If it's a trigger, who triggers it, and why? Is it necessary that the epitaph always be solved in every episode?
1. The trigger is attached to a clock in such a way that no one would think it's a trigger for a bomb. Beatrice has to point it out before anyone notices it.
2. Eva triggered it after she accidentally shot Natsuhi and Hideyoshi accidentally shot Krauss. This was in order to make everyone else go along with her plan to cover up her crime, to avoid jail time.
3. Because the episodes are fictional murder plans that Beatrice made, to cover every scenario that she could think of. There's only one truth of Rokkenjima, and that's that the epitaph is solved that night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The letter could have been written by Kinzo himself for all it matters if all "Beatrice" needs to do is spur people on to solve the epitaph. All her problems and internal conflicts set up prior to that point seem wholly irrelevant. That can't be right, can it?
Kinzo doesn't want just anyone to solve the epitaph. He put it into place because he put two and two together and figured out that Shannon was actually his and Beatrice's child. The epitaph is a message to Genji. Genji can leave it "unsolved" and Beatrice's child will never come to light, or her can have Shannon "solve" it, thus proving his suspicions correct and giving him someone to apologize to before he dies.
__________________
雨の日も晴れの日も
いつの日も愛してた
それだけは 今もまだ
ずっと変りはしない
musouka is offline  
Old 2010-08-17, 16:54   Link #245
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
This episode could be nothing but big bold letters (albeit not red letters) saying "X IS TRUE. Y IS FALSE. Z KILLED EVERYBODY. Q HELPED." And it still wouldn't be trustworthy. Are people seriously believing this crap? Are expectations that low? Is the obvious existence of an ep8 coming down the pike not cause for serious concern? Are people just so fatigued that they want an answer, any answer, whether it really lives up to the previous six episodes' setup or not?

It's within your rights to accept shaky and self-inconsistent scenarios as "the answer," but merely because something is presented starkly and unambiguously is not of much help to us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Kinzo doesn't want just anyone to solve the epitaph. He put it into place because he put two and two together and figured out that Shannon was actually his and Beatrice's child. The epitaph is a message to Genji. Genji can leave it "unsolved" and Beatrice's child will never come to light, or her can have Shannon "solve" it, thus proving his suspicions correct and giving him someone to apologize to before he dies.
Then what difference does it make if anybody else solves it? Think about the reason why any of this should function the way it does. Oliver has already pointed out the chapel/epitaph inconsistency. I'm sure there are others.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-17, 16:56   Link #246
musouka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Then what difference does it make if anybody else solves it? Think about the reason why any of this should function the way it does. Oliver has already pointed out the chapel/epitaph inconsistency. I'm sure there are others.
Kinzo didn't believe anyone else would solve it. That's why he put it up.

EDIT: And again, I didn't find the episode shaky and inconsistent. I thought it was absolutely beautiful and satisfying. It answered all my questions. It was engaging. It made me cry in spots. And I loved Leon and Will.

I can understand why people might not like it, but I loved it.
__________________
雨の日も晴れの日も
いつの日も愛してた
それだけは 今もまだ
ずっと変りはしない
musouka is offline  
Old 2010-08-17, 16:58   Link #247
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Kinzo didn't believe anyone else would solve it. That's why he put it up.
And then Genji was like "what if somebody does."

Well... what if somebody does? Hell, by not exposing that she'd solved it, "Beatrice" just leaves open the possibility. And then by challenging others to solve it... hell, does that make a lick of sense to you?

"Oh it was created for this purpose."
"Great! It fulfilled its purpose."
"Okay, now let's challenge everybody to solve it."
"Why? We already got what we needed out of it."

Sure, she can want somebody else to solve it instead, but then her behavior is very strange and passive-aggressive.

EDIT: I like the episode. But anyone who was taken for a ride by it is far too trusting.

EDIT EDIT: Also, "Kinzo doesn't think anyone can solve it" is apparently a gross underestimation of his children and grandchildren, as we know it exists within Eva and possibly Rosa to solve the epitaph outright. The adults actually bothering causes them to solve it right away. How is that impossible? Kinzo must not be anywhere near as good at this as he thinks.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-17, 17:02   Link #248
musouka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
And then Genji was like "what if somebody does."
He was asking a hypothetical question about Beatrice. "What if Beatrice was resurrected like you wanted her to be, what would you do?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well... what if somebody does? Hell, by not exposing that she'd solved it, "Beatrice" just leaves open the possibility. And then by challenging others to solve it... hell, does that make a lick of sense to you?
It's obvious that solving the epitaph was a way for Beatrice to assert control over her own destiny, but then upon solving it, she discovers the truth about herself. That makes her feel helpless, like everything she's done or tried to do is pointless. She doesn't care about the gold in and of itself. She just wanted to prove she could do something for herself, and even that was taken from her by Genji's arrival.
__________________
雨の日も晴れの日も
いつの日も愛してた
それだけは 今もまだ
ずっと変りはしない
musouka is offline  
Old 2010-08-17, 17:03   Link #249
Klashikari
Swords•Maidens Maniac
*Graphic Designer
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 28
Send a message via Skype™ to Klashikari
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
This episode could be nothing but big bold letters (albeit not red letters) saying "X IS TRUE. Y IS FALSE. Z KILLED EVERYBODY. Q HELPED." And it still wouldn't be trustworthy. Are people seriously believing this crap? Are expectations that low? Is the obvious existence of an ep8 coming down the pike not cause for serious concern? Are people just so fatigued that they want an answer, any answer, whether it really lives up to the previous six episodes' setup or not?
As much as some points are still debatable, the fact you are declaring the whole episode as a complete pile of untrustworthy story doesn't ring well in my books. For what purpose this episode is the third one, the penultimate arc before the end of that franchise?
It seems you are bothering yourself too much with weird concerns etc. At worst, just list up what's wrong in your books, but I wouldn't really rely on "summaries" and the like to declare "this is crap" kind of claim.

And before you ask, this is from someone who still don't give credit to Shkanon. Even if it is hinted in a very "in your face way", more than ep6, it still doesn't tick me well in practical sense (namely life as 2 servants and whatnot).
Klashikari is online now  
Old 2010-08-17, 17:05   Link #250
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
He was asking a hypothetical question about Beatrice. "What if Beatrice was resurrected like you wanted her to be, what would you do?"
Which is clearly what he wanted if we go by this setup. But... anyone can see the damn thing, and anyone can try to solve it, and I see no possible reason nobody else could. It isn't even hard. They know where Kinzo is from, they've seen the chapel, are we assuming they're idiots? Why does he think Beatrice especially would even have the edge on this? Genji had to basically cheat in Yasu's favor and dropped a bomb of a hint on him/her. I guess that's "destiny," huh? Cheating.

And if we reject the fundamental premise of Bern's vision and assert that there was no such child... well shit. Then our reading is completely wrong.

And the epitaph has to have been in the works from a far, far earlier date than Yasu would have even existed, if we go by the architectural conceits. So... um... how does that work, again?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-17, 17:06   Link #251
musouka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Which is clearly what he wanted if we go by this setup. But... anyone can see the damn thing, and anyone can try to solve it, and I see no possible reason nobody else could. Why does he think Beatrice especially would even have the edge on this?
Genji was supposed to make sure Shannon solved it. If Shannon didn't solve it, then it didn't matter who did to Kinzo.
__________________
雨の日も晴れの日も
いつの日も愛してた
それだけは 今もまだ
ずっと変りはしない
musouka is offline  
Old 2010-08-17, 17:08   Link #252
Klashikari
Swords•Maidens Maniac
*Graphic Designer
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 28
Send a message via Skype™ to Klashikari
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Which is clearly what he wanted if we go by this setup. But... anyone can see the damn thing, and anyone can try to solve it, and I see no possible reason nobody else could. Why does he think Beatrice especially would even have the edge on this?
Because he is Kinzo?
You are assuming that Kinzo is going only by reasoning and so forth. Even at that point of the story, his obsession with Beatrice is unshakable. As he knew Shannon/Rion may be his daughter, he let fate decide. Since he knew she was Beatrice daughter, so he expected her to resolve it, someway or another. That's why Genji was there for this purpose.

Kinzo has a overpowering obsession, that's it. It isn't like he cared much about others, it is the "risk" of his bargain. If she couldn't resolve it, then for all he care, anyone would do, he doesn't really give a crap.
Klashikari is online now  
Old 2010-08-17, 17:09   Link #253
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Genji was supposed to make sure Shannon solved it. If Shannon didn't solve it, then it didn't matter who did to Kinzo.
So Genji is supposed to cheat.

So the epitaph is utterly pointless. Might as well just show them the gold.

Why make it an inherently solvable puzzle? That just risks somebody actually bumbling upon the solution. What if George figures it out in 1985? Now what do we do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Because he is Kinzo?
You are assuming that Kinzo is going only by reasoning and so forth. Even at that point of the story, his obsession with Beatrice is unshakable. As he knew Shannon/Rion may be his daughter, he let fate decide. Since he knew she was Beatrice daughter, so he expected her to resolve it, someway or another. That's why Genji was there for this purpose.

Kinzo has a overpowering obsession, that's it. It isn't like he cared much about others, it is the "risk" of his bargain. If she couldn't resolve it, then for all he care, anyone would do, he doesn't really give a crap.
If our reading of Kinzo is as we're told. Are we just deciding that this is true or something now? I guess I didn't get the memo where this episode is inherently more trustworthy than any other and we should just accept all its interpretations of people's rationale and behavior
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-17, 17:12   Link #254
musouka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
So Genji is supposed to cheat.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Why make it an inherently solvable puzzle? That just risks somebody actually bumbling upon the solution. What if George figures it out in 1985? Now what do we do?
The epitaph was solved very soon after it was put up. But if someone solved it before Shannon did, then that would have been a fate Kinzo accepted.
__________________
雨の日も晴れの日も
いつの日も愛してた
それだけは 今もまだ
ずっと変りはしない
musouka is offline  
Old 2010-08-17, 17:15   Link #255
Klashikari
Swords•Maidens Maniac
*Graphic Designer
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 28
Send a message via Skype™ to Klashikari
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If our reading of Kinzo is as we're told. Are we just deciding that this is true or something now? I guess I didn't get the memo where this episode is inherently more trustworthy than any other and we should just accept all its interpretations of people's rationale and behavior
I didn't get the memo that anything non red is any less trustworthy than any white scenes we got before but weirdly don't get so contested like this one.
Then what, do you intent to claim that all flashbacks we have seen so far are lies as well?

Seriously, the setup was consistent with what we were presented so far, and its purpose.
If you are going to discard that for the hell of it, you can then very well trash this episode and the rest and wait for the answer.
I don't intend to say that everything presented in episode 7 are the truth. However, the purpose of key scenes are likely to put us on the right tracks, or at least, fleshing out portions that would help to figure the whole frame.
That doesn't mean you have to blindly trust anything and everything, but I see no damn reason not to trust this portion of the story.
Klashikari is online now  
Old 2010-08-17, 17:19   Link #256
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
The epitaph was solved very soon after it was put up. But if someone solved it before Shannon did, then that would have been a fate Kinzo accepted.
Um.
April 1984 - no earlier than 29 of November 1984 = no less than 6 months and 30 days. Is that supposed to be "very soon"?...
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
— Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline  
Old 2010-08-17, 17:22   Link #257
AC-Phoenix
Detective
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I didn't get the memo that anything non red is any less trustworthy than any white scenes we got before but weirdly don't get so contested like this one.
Then what, do you intent to claim that all flashbacks we have seen so far are lies as well?

Seriously, the setup was consistent with what we were presented so far, and its purpose.
If you are going to discard that for the hell of it, you can then very well trash this episode and the rest and wait for the answer.
I don't intend to say that everything presented in episode 7 are the truth. However, the purpose of key scenes are likely to put us on the right tracks, or at least, fleshing out portions that would help to figure the whole frame.
That doesn't mean you have to blindly trust anything and everything, but I see no damn reason not to trust this portion of the story.
I think the big question is what point EP 1 has if everything said in EP 7 was true.
Until know many people beleft that EP 1 was the actual event and everything after was just to pinpoint the murderer and unsolve 'how she did it'.
AC-Phoenix is offline  
Old 2010-08-17, 17:24   Link #258
musouka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Um.
April 1984 - no earlier than 29 of November 1984 = no less than 6 months and 30 days. Is that supposed to be "very soon"?...
To me, yes?
__________________
雨の日も晴れの日も
いつの日も愛してた
それだけは 今もまだ
ずっと変りはしない
musouka is offline  
Old 2010-08-17, 17:26   Link #259
ArcticHelm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
I just find it problematic as while Lambda's game was without any love, Bern's game is downright malicious. There is certainly some truth in the game, but It's kinda hard to say what is true especially given how many times it has been said that without love the truth can't be seen. You can turn that around and say with bad intent you'll only see lies. I think you can find some useful character information, especially regarding Beatrice, but beyond that it just seems to be Bern showing everything that Beato's game is not. It's probably fruitful to try and look back at the reasons why Beatrice ran her game and see how they apply to this one, if at all. ` ~`)a
ArcticHelm is offline  
Old 2010-08-17, 17:26   Link #260
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Speaking of Ep1... after reading Ep6 and 7, we're supposed to be able to go back to it and start shitting bricks, according to Ryukishi.

Anyone tried this yet?
__________________

Last edited by Kaisos Erranon; 2010-08-17 at 17:45.
Kaisos Erranon is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 14:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.