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Old 2010-08-17, 17:29   Link #261
ArcticHelm
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I read through 1 and 2 recently, and I generally felt like an idiot looking at all of the things that were hints and I didn't catch onto... practically every scene had a moment which figuratively slapped me in the face. I'll probably try reading through the series again after I give 7 another go through and let everyone sit on ideas for a couple weeks.
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Old 2010-08-17, 17:33   Link #262
AC-Phoenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Speaking of Ep1... after reading Ep5 and 6, we're supposed to be able to go back to it and start shitting bricks, according to Ryukishi.

Anyone tried this yet?
I think it refers to the 'closed room' chain in Eva-Hide's death room.
No one ever looked in the closet so it was very easy to get out

other episodes also reveal that the stake shooting device battler mentions doesn't exist.
Gouging a gunhole is enough to put the stake in as deep as descibed.
Otherwise they would have to use a hammer...
Everything else would probably violate Knox Rules.

Edit:
Not to mention the fact that EP 1 had an unknown number X of Masterkeys.
In fact, every single person on the island could have a master key, simply by borrowing it from the seven sisters.
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Old 2010-08-17, 17:39   Link #263
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Speaking of Ep1... after reading Ep5 and 6, we're supposed to be able to go back to it and start shitting bricks, according to Ryukishi.

Anyone tried this yet?
Small correction: He said after 6 and 7 not 5 and 6.

Quote:
Keiya: I imagine that’s very closely connected to the riddle at the end of EP4.

Ryukishi: Yeah, I’ll bet. Many hints will appear in EP5 as well. When the pivotal answers come out in EP6 and EP7, I suggest that you replay starting from EP1 and enjoy how early on the foreshadowing begins. Like when you get a new key in an RPG, and return to the very first dungeon to get a treasure chest behind a door that you couldn’t open before(laughs). That’s an especially fun part of Umineko. Even now, there are many things you’ll understand if you go back to EP1. But there are still many treasure chests waiting in EP1 that can’t be opened yet. After playing EP5, EP6, and EP7, you might go back to EP1 and think “This is a huge clue” or “It’s almost obvious!”
This story will be fun to read over again. The anime will start very soon, won’t it? People with certain suspicions might say “Ah!” and clap their hands at certain points in the anime.
as for whose been looking back starting at episode 1 and finding new clues. *Ahem* It's in my sig?

*goes back into hiding*
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Old 2010-08-17, 17:45   Link #264
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Small correction: He said after 6 and 7 not 5 and 6.
That's what I meant. My mistake.
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Old 2010-08-17, 17:54   Link #265
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I didn't get the memo that anything non red is any less trustworthy than any white scenes we got before but weirdly don't get so contested like this one.
Then what, do you intent to claim that all flashbacks we have seen so far are lies as well?
Why are you putting words in my mouth? I didn't say it was a lie, I said it was full of crap. There's a difference. You can tell the truth and still be full of crap. Presentation matters, and I do not trust the presentation for a second.

And also, what's with all the white knighting for the veracity of a story steeped in the influence of quite possibly the single most loathsome and untrustworthy person in the entire series?
Quote:
Seriously, the setup was consistent with what we were presented so far, and its purpose.
No, it isn't. In fact, every part of ep7 is fundamentally flawed from almost the beginning of Will's interrogations. We are made to accept a fundamental premise, are essentially bullied into it along with the characters, that there exists a chain of continuity between three characters, only one of whom is confirmed to have ever existed, and that this continuity must be accepted in one, and only one format. Dissent to this notion is flatly ignored as the story progresses, hoping we will forget about it. I like to think this is intentional and not just the writer himself hoping we'll forget. Because I still think this could be a good work, against all odds.

We are then asked to like a shallow caricature who never existed in the episodes supposedly needed to "solve" the mystery, are blatantly and openly mocked for our inability to insinuate such things, and are then effectively told that none of the characters we actually started liking from the start really amount to much. Kyrie and Eva are lucky to come out of things with additional characterization at all.

This character twists other characters into meaningless illusions or shallow mentally disturbed hypocrites who blame other people for their kindness. We're shown a very down to earth, subdued, human Kinzo then asked to conclude he's an incestuous rapist madman. And every time we're asked to justify these characterizations, we feedback-loop back onto the very same premises we were told we must believe in, not because the solid evidence for them allows us to reach no other conclusion, but because things that sound similar must be similar.

Well, I'm not going to do that.
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Old 2010-08-17, 18:05   Link #266
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Uh there was a crack theory I thought of that Shkanon hints have been in play since EP1. I mean, Battler never got to use detective's authority on Shkanon's breasts. He got smacked by Jessica right before that happened. The boobs could be fake, and we have no clues either for or against it :/
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Old 2010-08-17, 18:07   Link #267
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There's lots of moments in ep1 and ep2 where the adults pretty much guess exactly the sorts of things ep7 suggests.

The problem is that this, if true, isn't really "amazing hints from the start" but "the answer from the start, however implausible."

It's like if a murder mystery had all the characters running around saying "Goodness, I wonder of Colonel Billings is the killer?" And then the ending is... Colonel Billings is the killer. Was that really a mystery? It doesn't seem like the characters were all that surprised.
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Old 2010-08-17, 18:10   Link #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Why are you putting words in my mouth? I didn't say it was a lie, I said it was full of crap. There's a difference. You can tell the truth and still be full of crap. Presentation matters, and I do not trust the presentation for a second.
It is extremely hard not to conclude this way, when you are questioning every single detail regarding this scene, not giving credit one bit. Your sarcasm about this episode trustworthy aspect doesn't help in that matter.
Quote:
And also, what's with all the white knighting for the veracity of a story steeped in the influence of quite possibly the single most loathsome and untrustworthy person in the entire series?
Whiteknighting? Rather for something from the "most lothsome and untrustworthy" character, it is supririnslgy on the line with old episodes you see.
I dunno, it seems you are discrediting this game just because Bernkastel is involved in there. Does it make any sense for a character to have their twisted fun to actually put false stuff, despite she needs Will to expose the truth? How about the fact the clues were said confirmed?

I think it is "perhaps" better to consider each game of the puzzle. It isn't even about the characters, but about the storytelling. Why would Ryukishi makes a so "flawed" kakera and using the "so worst character" as you describe then?
It has a meaning and it certainly went more smoothly than "people playing dead for some reason" with Lambda and Battler.

Keep in mind that Bern is solely affecting the possible presentation and interpretation. Facts are not affected by it. I see little point to just claim "it is trash" when it does tie with a lot of things from the previous episodes.
Fan sitching technique? Who knows, but it is arguably noteworthy to have a look.

Quote:
No, it isn't. In fact, every part of ep7 is fundamentally flawed from almost the beginning of Will's interrogations. We are made to accept a fundamental premise, are essentially bullied into it along with the characters, that there exists a chain of continuity between three characters, only one of whom is confirmed to have ever existed, and that this continuity must be accepted in one, and only one format. Dissent to this notion is flatly ignored as the story progresses, hoping we will forget about it. I like to think this is intentional and not just the writer himself hoping we'll forget. Because I still think this could be a good work, against all odds.
What are you talking about? You keep beating around the bush for a while now.
Quote:
We are then asked to like a shallow caricature who never existed in the episodes supposedly needed to "solve" the mystery, are blatantly and openly mocked for our inability to insinuate such things, and are then effectively told that none of the characters we actually started liking from the start really amount to much. Kyrie and Eva are lucky to come out of things with additional characterization at all.
Asked to like? So far, it is all about the reader appreciation you see. There are characters meant to be hated, but the rest is pretty much a lot of shade of greys, giving the fanbase a certain amount of choices.
If you were that disappointed, feel free to say so. But declaring "this is crap" as if it was a fact really doesn't rub me well, and I don't think I'm the only one here.

You may feel dejected, but your tantrum really is getting insulting.

Quote:
This character twists other characters into meaningless illusions or shallow mentally disturbed hypocrites who blame other people for their kindness. We're shown a very down to earth, subdued, human Kinzo then asked to conclude he's an incestuous rapist madman. And every time we're asked to justify these characterizations, we feedback-loop back onto the very same premises we were told we must believe in, not because the solid evidence for them allows us to reach no other conclusion, but because things that sound similar must be similar.

Well, I'm not going to do that.
No human are clear cut good or evil, nor they are forced to remain on the path they have chosen. Kinzo was just insane, pitiful, and the fact he went to that extreme points don't redeem completely.
If you see that as a cop oup, suit yourself. but don't push your frustration on others, as if they were idiots.
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Old 2010-08-17, 18:11   Link #269
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
"Goodness, I wonder of Colonel Billings is the killer?" And then the ending is... Colonel Billings is the killer. Was that really a mystery? It doesn't seem like the characters were all that surprised.
Have you read And then there were none? While there's a little deliberation on the other characters that's essentially exactly what happens.
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Old 2010-08-17, 18:15   Link #270
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
What are you talking about? You keep beating around the bush for a while now.
The stories about the epitaph, gold location, chapel construction, Rosa's meeting with Beatrice-2, and Natsuhi's baby are all just sort of mishmashed together and handwaved when the dates do not seem to necessarily sync in the slightest. Will essentially forces Rosa to confirm 1967 when she isn't really all that sure. In order for the entire story to make sense, a series of assumptions must all be true. Some of them perhaps are true. Others cannot be proven true. We're being asked to assume that because they appear to "fit," that those parts which are true lend absolute credence to those parts which are purely speculative.

And given what we heard Bernkastel say outright at the end of ep6, I'm not sure why we aren't to take this as at least partially speculative itself.

Sorry that asking uncomfortable questions that challenge the purity of the narrative presented is a "tantrum," but I think questions need to be asked, because parts of the narrative require leaps of faith I see no justification to make.
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Old 2010-08-17, 18:16   Link #271
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Have you read And then there were none? That's exactly what happens.
Also, two of Agatha Christie's big "firsts" had the killer as the most obvious person, and the motive laid right before the reader in the first half of the first chapter. In both, pretty much everyone thought they knew who the killer was in the beginning, but by the time the story ended, so much had happened that they were completely shocked by the killer's identity.

In a way, that's the toughest kind of mystery to write. To shove the killer right in the readers' face and still manage to trick them.
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Old 2010-08-17, 18:19   Link #272
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Also, two of Agatha Christie's big "firsts" had the killer as the most obvious person, and the motive laid right before the reader in the first half of the first chapter. In both, pretty much everyone thought they knew who the killer was in the beginning, but by the time the story ended, so much had happened that they were completely shocked by the killer's identity.

In a way, that's the toughest kind of mystery to write. To shove the killer right in the readers' face and still manage to trick them.
The problem with that is, isn't Shannon sort of waved in people's faces when they do the alibi deduction thing around ep3/4? I'm not sure how popular a candidate she was when only ep1 existed, but she rose to rather swift prominence as a possibility around ep2 or 3.

It just feels like a very flat revelation. It's not like anybody did a whole heck of a lot to confound the adults' claims in prior episodes. We got magic scenes, sure, but people were critical of those from the start.
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This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-08-17, 18:23   Link #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The stories about the epitaph, gold location, chapel construction, Rosa's meeting with Beatrice-2, and Natsuhi's baby are all just sort of mishmashed together and handwaved when the dates do not seem to necessarily sync in the slightest. Will essentially forces Rosa to confirm 1967 when she isn't really all that sure. In order for the entire story to make sense, a series of assumptions must all be true. Some of them perhaps are true. Others cannot be proven true. We're being asked to assume that because they appear to "fit," that those parts which are true lend absolute credence to those parts which are purely speculative.
And why can you assume we are "asked" to assume things are true?
I dunno what you exactly read, but from the very start, it was only Willard's investigation, not a "let me show you what is the truth without any subjective point". It is all about Willard trying to piece everything out from his point of view and knowledge. Why do you assume "we have to assume" it is true?
The fact they are core arcs showing clues and answers doesn't mean everything is shown at face value. I really see no damn reason to think this way: being presented characters speculations and their supposed theories doesn't mean you have to blindly follow them. As far as I see, the game is unfolding points that can be accepted or not. That's the same as a majority of people raving about a popular theory: it doesn't mean you have to follow them.

I really see no fault from the game/narration side regarding that matter. The game is trying to go back to its root, and the lakc of red and blue allow to have a moderate take on things and facts, instead of cherrypicking specific portions because of special features.

Quote:
And given what we heard Bernkastel say outright at the end of ep6, I'm not sure why we aren't to take this as at least partially speculative itself.
What part? That "everything is the truth"? The fact the sentence isn't finished doesn't mean anything.
The fact the clues were all presented? That surely is the same as Beato pouring clues with some overdrive witch festival.

Quote:
Sorry that asking uncomfortable questions that challenge the purity of the narrative presented is a "tantrum," but I think questions need to be asked, because parts of the narrative require leaps of faith I see no justification to make.
Except that it is borderline impossible to figure your intention when you just hotbloody jump on details that are arguably not even how you describe them.
No one has ever claimed the narrative is perfect. It "makes" sense as per its content and its purpose. That doesn't mean it is the holy grail or the "golden truth".
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Old 2010-08-17, 18:26   Link #274
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Does the person who made the Qilian theory has an username or is simply an anon ? I am just curious to know that...
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Old 2010-08-17, 18:31   Link #275
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
And why can you assume we are "asked" to assume things are true?
I dunno what you exactly read, but from the very start, it was only Willard's investigation, not a "let me show you what is the truth without any subjective point". It is all about Willard trying to piece everything out from his point of view and knowledge. Why do you assume "we have to assume" it is true?
Because it posits as necessary the existence of a person without whom the entire theory collapses. This person exists because it is necessary for the theory. It's cyclical, but we aren't given narrative attention to the prospect that it might be questionable for this reason. That's the author's prerogative, of course; no reason to dwell on something not of interest to the writer. But it is of considerable interest to people who claim to be interested in the facts presented.
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Old 2010-08-17, 18:31   Link #276
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Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Does the person who made the Qilian theory has an username or is simply an anon ? I am just curious to know that...
The first person I saw who physically presented it was in the nico video. The uploader of that video was called "OZ."

Did anyone translate that video?
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Old 2010-08-17, 18:33   Link #277
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I pretty much agree with everything Klashikari has said so far. I think most people won't throw away episode 7 just because the game master is Bernkastel.
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Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Does the person who made the Qilian theory has an username or is simply an anon ? I am just curious to know that...
I'm not sure about the source. I was the first person on this board to translate the theory and I got it from this site:
http://tool-4.net/?id=umineko&pn=17

I don't know who made that theory but they deserve a a pat on the back.
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Old 2010-08-17, 18:35   Link #278
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
I pretty much agree with everything Klashikari has said so far. I think most people won't throw away episode 7 just because the game master is Bernkastel.
Again, it need not be all or nothing, but I am seeing way more "all" here than I am seeing "nothing," and that is troubling.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-08-17, 18:38   Link #279
DgBarca
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OZ ? Zeta...means...7 in greek, nah ?
Damn...Not that....In greek...Z...Zeta...It's....7...
O7...
07...
Ho god.
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Old 2010-08-17, 18:52   Link #280
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Because it posits as necessary the existence of a person without whom the entire theory collapses. This person exists because it is necessary for the theory. It's cyclical, but we aren't given narrative attention to the prospect that it might be questionable for this reason. That's the author's prerogative, of course; no reason to dwell on something not of interest to the writer. But it is of considerable interest to people who claim to be interested in the facts presented.
And what kind of narrative attention would you expect here, when we are supposed to follow a character investigation? It isn't like the narration can bend here and there, otherwise, we would have something akin to Episode 4, if not worse.

The write really doesn't have the responsibility to offer all possible narration directions. Even with a multi arc tale like umineko, it would take a sizable amount of similar/clone arcs to have all possible perspective.

So I wonder how you can cope a clean cut story like one of agatha christie, which is basically "linear" to be plain.
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