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Old 2010-08-17, 18:58   Link #281
Renall
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The writer has the responsibility to have a rational detective ask relevant questions that a rational reader might make about the premise of a story.

For instance, if the detective is told in testimony that "oh, a robot murdered him," this would be something worthy of speculation in a story set in plain vanilla 1870s London. On the other hand, it would not be a big deal in Asimov's Elijah Bailey novels, because robots exist there and we've accepted the premise of them and their laws going in.

In the latter case, we don't want Elijah Bailey dwelling on what a robot is, because he already knows. In the former case, however, we want a rational question to be raised, like "What's a robot doing in this story?" or "How did this person even come up with the concept of a robot?" Done well, this can certainly still make for a good story. Done poorly, however, and it stands out as something bizarre and out of place the author didn't properly establish, either by the setting making it something we suspend our disbelief for or something the detective character is himself curious about.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-08-17, 19:23   Link #282
Oliver
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Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
OZ ? Zeta...means...7 in greek, nah ?
Damn...Not that....In greek...Z...Zeta...It's....7...
O7...
07...
Ho god.
I think you win Umineko. For real this time. I'd love if this little note would not be forgotten and kept in mind.
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(updated 2010-08-24)
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Old 2010-08-17, 19:30   Link #283
Renall
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"I saw this awesome puzzle on the internet today, BT!"
"Oh cool, what was it?"
"Something about sacrifices and a golden land or something..."
"........how'd it go?"
"Oh I think I got it."
"Dude, you idiot, you solved your own story!"
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Old 2010-08-17, 20:12   Link #284
crazysjd89
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I liked Episode 7.

I took it for what it was, a telling of the possible solution, which should involve love, told from the perspective of someone who has no love.

If you look at the tea party, you can see it is very similar to a lot of earlier theories, before Ryukishi dropped the 'without love' hint.

It is like a video game summary. If you are talking about a video game that you love, you'll be able to more effectivly summarize it, you'll use a lot of positive words, and you'll be able to talk about it for a long time.

On the other hand, someone who dislikes that same game might give a very broad description, use negative terms, and go on for a bit less about it. However, that doesn't mean what he said is any less true then the person who liked it. He simply had a 'skewed' view on it. He wouldn't tell outright lies like "The main character is 'x'" when in fact the main character is 'y'. And he wouldn't say, 'It's a platformer' when in fact it's an RPG.


The Kakeras that are so prominent on the story aren't limitless. There are fragements for every 'possible' choice, but there can't be an 'impossible' choice.

For example, there wouldn't be a fragment where Ange, who is only 6 years old and wasn't on the island, could carry out such a murder. But, there may be a fragment where Asumu never existed, so in effect, Ange is 18 years old, and she would be capable of carrying out the murders.

This is even the case in Higurashi. In Higurashi, Rika could go very far back, but as her powers weakened, she could go back less and less.

So it should be assumed that, the further back things are changed, the more power is needed. Bern originally might not have been able to do this, but with Featherine's power, it was probably possible to go far back enough to find a kakera where Natsuhi decided to keep the child.

So, while this may be directed by contrived minds, that doesn't mean it's completly full of crap either. It is one of the possibilities. The important point is to compare and contrast it to other episodes to find what might have changed and use that as a guide.

As for the epitaph. For one thing, Kinzo, throughout the entire story, has always stressed 'taking huge risks, to make a miracle happen'. He may have well been aware that his other children would solve the Epitaph. But he took that risk to make a miracle happen, one where he would be forgiven by Beatrice 3.

And I would hardly call Genji's hint 'cheating', but it was more like 'evening the playing field'. After all, as you said Renall, all the parents already knew he was from Taiwan. Claire/Beatrice 3 on the other hand, did not know this. She was not getting any extra information, she got the information that the other siblings had since the start.

I should also say that while I believe Shkanontrice is possible, I am also not 100% behind it yet, so I simply think it is a possibility, while making my own theories.

The reason Shkanon is hardly played in the 'truth' is because it should NOT be being played. In that situation, the Epitaph was solved, therefore, Beatrice no longer has anything to do with it. While I agree there are strange points about her actions, there was no reason for her to be involved and hinted to be Shkanon, when in fact, she wouldn't be killing people.

Do not forget, when the epitaph is solved, Beatrice is no longer responsible for the killings (atleast not directly).

It's true not everything in this story should be taken as "Hey, all the answers!" but it also shouldn't be taken as "Hey, these are all wrong!"
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Old 2010-08-17, 20:29   Link #285
Rias
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I might be over-thinking, but I think the main problem of this episode is the "bigger Schrodinger's cat box". Beatrice (as game master), and Willard have both said that the events of the 2 days (Oct 4-5) are in the cat box. That's implying that the events were open to different interpretations, and thus we have the different games. That's also why Battler is going to open the box in ep8 (hinted, I guess).

While the events in Ep7 explained the major events leading up to the 2 days, it was actually in fact a bigger cat box containing the smaller one (I forgot if Berun or Willard said that). This is apparant with the flashback quote from the end of the tea party, suggesting that Kinzo actually started the whole fight between the Japanese and Italians. (He does have the motive and the way to pull it off), which wasn't shown in the narration in the main story.

So, did those events really happen? I would say yes, but maybe some details are still being withheld from the readers.
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Old 2010-08-17, 22:32   Link #286
pehkay
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Is 7th the last episode?
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Old 2010-08-17, 23:23   Link #287
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pehkay View Post
Is 7th the last episode?
No. EP 8 will come out in December during the Winter Comiket.
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Old 2010-08-17, 23:37   Link #288
Renall
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However, hasn't he hinted that ep8 will indeed be the end? I think most people predicted as much, but still.
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-08-18, 02:28   Link #289
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
"oh, a robot murdered him"
it would not be a big deal in Asimov's Elijah Bailey novels
Actually, it would (and often is), since First Law and all. Just sayin'.
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Old 2010-08-18, 02:33   Link #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
However, hasn't he hinted that ep8 will indeed be the end? I think most people predicted as much, but still.
It was just revealed in a recent interview that Umineko will end this Winter, so unless we get a lot of Episodes released between now and Winter then it looks like 8 will be the end.
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Old 2010-08-18, 03:52   Link #291
Used Can
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Hey guys, is this what Yasu looks like?

Spoiler for Yasu:


Anyway, I'll ask again, anyone have any idea what Yasu's big injury was that made her believe she's unable to be loved?
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Old 2010-08-18, 04:52   Link #292
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I have to say that if there is one person on this entire island whose words and revelations I can trust the most, it is Kinzo. He maybe insane, at times completely irrational and probably completely clouded by his love for Beatrice(s), but I'll be damned if he isn't consistent. I can trust a consistent character with questionable mental faculties than someone who's character can't even be pinned down.

Summaries later.
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Old 2010-08-18, 07:44   Link #293
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Actually, it would (and often is), since First Law and all. Just sayin'.
Well, the Laws of Robotics are sort of the mystery themselves in Asimov's books.

If you haven't read them, it pretty much always comes down to: Elijah Bailey and his robotic partner R. Daneel Olivaw are called somewhere to solve a mystery which everyone thinks a robot committed. It should, of course, be impossible for this to be so, since a robot's programming prohibits it from harming a human or allowing a human to come to harm.

Asimov's laws may as well be red truth (except when he decides they aren't, anyway...). The solution often relies on some twist in the laws which permit robots to act in an unusual manner, though they are almost never the actual culprits (the "robots seemingly breaking their laws" thing is in all of Asimov's robot works, not just the mysteries). Still, they are quite often manipulated (though not as badly as with the Zeroth Law).

It's similar to a closed room mystery, but it's more of a "closed motive" mystery; we're shown a suspect and given a reason why they killed, then told outright that it is impossible for that suspect to have killed. Naturally, there are really only two ways this gets resolved in general: The suspect isn't the killer, or the "prohibition" on their actions is not as restrictive as it appears to be.

EDIT: Actually, the whole "servant can't do it" vs. "yes, but what if it's more than a mere servant" thing in ep7 mirrors parts of Asimov's robot mysteries exactly, although I don't believe any of them relied on a robot thinking it was human. There was definitely some "Laws of Robotics evasion" in the same sense some of the red text is dodged.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Last edited by Renall; 2010-08-18 at 08:11.
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Old 2010-08-18, 09:33   Link #294
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What I am curious about is how far exactly does the whole servants cannot be culprits go. Does this mean that they just cannot be the prime suspect, or they cannot commit any of the crimes at all? If they cannot commit crimes can they still provide an environment or assistance, knowingly or unknowingly, in which the prime suspect can commit crimes without any of the servants having actually committed any themselves?

I guess to put it another way, think of a trial. We know servants cannot be the prime culprit, so lets think of a murder for hire scenario. The one who hires the hitman and the hitman are both on trial. The hitman actually performs the murders, but the one who hired him is the "culprit" as nothing would have happened without their actions, i.e., the hiring of a hitman.

If both of these are ruled out, could we say they servants can be accessories to the murders. Like providing alibis for the murderer or for altering the conditions of the bodies, such as having the servants stake the corpses. Another way could be giving a killer means in which to kill someone without actually killing someone themselves, like giving them one of Kinzos guns or means to get one of Kinzos guns themselves.

I am just trying to figure out the proper way of applying the rule.
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Old 2010-08-18, 09:54   Link #295
Renall
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"Culprit" has never been defined, and only a few people have been said not to be "murderers," which while unambiguous doesn't necessarily mean they aren't criminals. If ryukishi intended "culprit" to have an unambiguous singular meaning, I don't think he's said what meaning that is yet.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-08-18, 10:19   Link #296
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Quote:
Keiya: I imagine that’s very closely connected to the riddle at the end of EP4.

Ryukishi: Yeah, I’ll bet. Many hints will appear in EP5 as well. When the pivotal answers come out in EP6 and EP7, I suggest that you replay starting from EP1 and enjoy how early on the foreshadowing begins. Like when you get a new key in an RPG, and return to the very first dungeon to get a treasure chest behind a door that you couldn’t open before(laughs). That’s an especially fun part of Umineko. Even now, there are many things you’ll understand if you go back to EP1. But there are still many treasure chests waiting in EP1 that can’t be opened yet. After playing EP5, EP6, and EP7, you might go back to EP1 and think “This is a huge clue” or “It’s almost obvious!”
This story will be fun to read over again. The anime will start very soon, won’t it? People with certain suspicions might say “Ah!” and clap their hands at certain points in the anime.
There'll be an Umineko Chiru anime? Can someone confirm this for me? O:
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Old 2010-08-18, 10:21   Link #297
Renall
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I haven't heard anything, but I suppose it's possible. Hopefully Deen does a better job than they did with the original... or Deen doesn't do it.
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This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2010-08-18, 10:37   Link #298
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That interview is an old one, when the anime hadn't started yet.
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Old 2010-08-18, 10:41   Link #299
MeoTwister5
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First summaries for today. Was gonna make more but I was studying, making a K-On! blog post and coaching a Starcraft 2 game.

This summary start begins from Kinzo telling his past up to the Italian submarine.


Spoiler for Summaries!:


As the content implies, we get a background not only on Kinzo's past but, more importantly, the first indication of a possible truth as to how Kinzo met Beatrice.
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Old 2010-08-18, 10:50   Link #300
DgBarca
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If you pronouce "quadrillion" in Japanease syle you get Kuwadorian...but
If you pronouce "trillion"...you will get...toraian...the guesthouse...
What if you prounouce "billion" ? It's probably the name of the mansion, who knows.

Birian ? maybe ?
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