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Old 2010-08-18, 16:10   Link #61
Heiwatsuki
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i completely agree with you, The internet can never be shut down, its not possible unless every computer in the world explodes. The internet is a global connection of computers. As long as at least two computers exist, the internet exists. And yeah, it seems the author somewhat maybe decided to write this article because she isnt getting enough money from her product. If her manga doesn't sell, its not the consumers fault. i mean really. Look at one piece, Slam dunk, Bleach, Naruto, And any other popular manga, They exist in the time of illegal downloads and sharing, and yet are the authors going into bankruptcy? no. because their manga is popular, they are making a very good income off being a mangaka. Like you said kaijo, If the author cant make a good product, dont bother selling it or living on it. And your idea is good. Trying to live off gambling on whether a manga book will be famous is pretty hard. Many mangaka dont make it because of that. and trying to force your consumers to buy isn't good. if your consumers dont want to buy, then they wont have to. and omg, i love your sig, its so hilarious XD
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Old 2010-08-18, 16:52   Link #62
GDB
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
the Chinese don't care about copyright
Unless it's their copyright. Then they'll guard that shit with the power of dragons.
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Old 2010-08-18, 19:17   Link #63
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Unless it's their copyright. Then they'll guard that shit with the power of dragons.
Eh, not really. China doesn't have much to copyright, as they are pretty much copying everything else. They make their money via bribes and IP stealing.

It's funny because China occupies a part in history that the US did prior. After we gained our independence, we began ignoring the patents and intellectual property laws of Europe. We copied the crap out of them, and made our own improvements. What happened? The US rapidly advanced, new innovations were to be had, and we modernized.

Anyway, bottom line, IP is a fool's errand, copyright law is bunk, and sharing isn't going away.
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Old 2010-08-18, 19:23   Link #64
Royal_Devil
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Originally Posted by xKou View Post
And yeah, it seems the author somewhat maybe decided to write this article because she isnt getting enough money from her product. If her manga doesn't sell, its not the consumers fault.
Black Butler is a big hit in both Japan and America. It was one of the top sellers in 2009 in Japan and the first volume released in America sold well too. I'd imagine she's hardly in any financial trouble

Someone flaunted the fact they are taking her work for free. These are native Japanese citizens that say they love her work but avoid spending a dime on it. You expect her to react positively to that?

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BTW sure to be sure, does anyone know if buying anime and manga in the us will be any good? will the money go to the American manga companies or the manga author or both?
Depends on the deal. Most of the time, the Japanese studio demands a price for the license, the American company pays it, and the profits from the American release go to making back the money they spent and getting more to license another series as well as just function as a business. One of the problems in the industry is that a number of Japanese companies charge too much for series that they don't understand won't do as well in the US as in Japan.
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Old 2010-08-19, 02:36   Link #65
Arbitres
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It's convenient, I want anime but can't afford it at the moment.

So, with series that will most likely never reach American shores, what am I do to but stream and watch licensed animes online?

Give up my anime? Sure, and next I'll not go to Tsubasacon. Oh, and I'll sprout wings and fly.

...Not a chance in hell.


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You expect her to react positively to that?
Nope, and should I react positively to the article?

I love Black Butler, truly. However... I don't think streaming will stop even if they asked nicely.
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Old 2010-08-19, 03:58   Link #66
bayoab
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
That's also assuming that supply/demand is absolutely equal at all levels. You aren't taking into account elasticity. What if they could go from 1000 units at $100 to 1200 units at $90? That's an extra $8,000 there.
I assume you meant by "equal" you meant that I was saying that [ $ x units ] = profit and profit is fixed. I was more trying to point out what happens when they drop prices by half or other large values versus small changes in prices. There are a number of examples of vol 1 being absurdly cheap and then subsequent, more expensive volumes end up actually being near equality in terms of total revenue. Of course, there is always elasticity in small price changes but there are very few shows that have small price changes among volumes.

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You're also assuming that variable costs account for much of the overhead, but with such low numbers of production I'd assume that most of the costs are fixed. Therefore, the more units of production you can spread it out to, the better off you are.
I might be misunderstanding you but most of these have per unit pricing with bulk discounts. It is a fraction over the total production costs, but you might not make it up in sales.

In the original example if you had $1.50 of production costs on the 2000/$50 and $4 of production costs on the 1000/$100, then it may be better to go with the 2000. But if you need $5 in costs for 3000 units vs $4 in costs for 5000, the difference is not large enough to justify printing 5000 (say due to a gel mousepad).

If you are just printing a DVD with a booklet or something, then it makes sense to go for the larger printing in the above as you are almost guaranteed to make money by printing more. (Difference is like 25 cents in the above example and you end up making a slightly larger profit after like 500 units.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by raduccio View Post
They need to change their ways if they want the industry to be more profitable.
I hear that companies don't make money from tv networks in Japan. If that's true then I guess a big part of the problem is right there!
Anime is essentially an informercial and that won't change as long as most shows are watched by <3% of the population. TV stations won't buy these shows because there are no advertisers who want those slots.

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Also, if they want people from outside Japan and the Us to pay for watching anime they should make their shows legally available in those countries for watching. (not 30bucks for 3 episodes just to watch the show once)
How hard would it be to make a few well supplied official streaming sites with decent fees?
They are already doing this (though it's still very US centric, like the R1 DVD market). Between FUNimation site, Crunchyroll and TAN, you can pretty much watch every single show this summer season for free or <$1/episode on CR.

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Take a page from Nine Inch Nails--offer your work online, without any form of DRM, for free--with a donate button right next to it.
This is NiN, who was a popular band to begin with. This has been proven not to work over and over with indie games and bands. Webcomics are another great example of how this does not work. Most webcomics die into obscurity.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Instead, they can't complain when they broadcast something over the air, someone records it, and someone else touches it up with subtitles. They've already put it out for free, so they can't complain when someone watches it for free.
It's not really for free though. If the commercials were included, then maybe something could be made of that argument, but they aren't, and most of what people watch now is from pay channels like AT-X.

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When fansubbers do it, they do it out of love, so they put more effort into the translation. While a company is doing it for the money, and just wants to shovel something out that someone will buy; only the bottom line matters. Sure, sometimes you can get a decent product, but I find it to be hit-and-miss, and mostly miss.
This really isn't true. Quality in fansubs exists because of work ethic, not because you care about the show or the fans. I hated at least half the shows I fansubbed, maybe more. Most subbers really don't give a damn about the show or the quality of their work. They do it because they are bored/have lots of free time on their hands.

Also, companies have to care about quality too. Companies have been sunk before due to poor releases. (Ex: Toei USA)

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Originally Posted by xKou View Post
But im against the idea of completely removing anime and manga off the web.
The point isn't to remove content from the web. It's to make sure the right people are actually seeing the profits from their work. Right now, most of the money is being made by the people who operate these illegal sites.
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Old 2010-08-19, 04:05   Link #67
Mushi
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I download fansubs because I'm broke and homeless and bored.
LMAO

Such brutal honesty.

I can only give my usual answer... I've spent far more money on anime and related goods because of fansubs than I ever would have otherwise.
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Old 2010-08-19, 04:26   Link #68
FateAnomaly
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If only there wasn't any fansubs, I would have saved thousands of dollars from not buying those merchandise.
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Old 2010-08-19, 04:52   Link #69
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
The point isn't to remove content from the web. It's to make sure the right people are actually seeing the profits from their work. Right now, most of the money is being made by the people who operate these illegal sites.
Sucks, since fansubs are for us (people in whose countrues a certain series isn't licensed), not for JPN fans to watch and therefore hoard money from the authors. The only solution is complete removal, though, which leaves us with nothing and them the show to buy (at a batshot insane price, but at least they have it).
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Old 2010-08-19, 05:09   Link #70
Heiwatsuki
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bayoab
This really isn't true. Quality in fansubs exists because of work ethic, not because you care about the show or the fans. I hated at least half the shows I fansubbed, maybe more. Most subbers really don't give a damn about the show or the quality of their work. They do it because they are bored/have lots of free time on their hands.
yah
Quote:
Originally posted by Bayoab
The point isn't to remove content from the web. It's to make sure the right people are actually seeing the profits from their work. Right now, most of the money is being made by the people who operate these illegal sites.
Like i said, im just posting some of my opinions.i already knew that.


Quote:
Originally posted by Royal Devil
Black Butler is a big hit in both Japan and America. It was one of the top sellers in 2009 in Japan and the first volume released in America sold well too. I'd imagine she's hardly in any financial trouble.Someone flaunted the fact they are taking her work for free. These are native Japanese citizens that say they love her work but avoid spending a dime on it. You expect her to react positively to that?
thanks for telling me, i was wondering if black butler was popular or not.
Quote:
Originally posted by Royal Devil
Depends on the deal. Most of the time, the Japanese studio demands a price for the license, the American company pays it, and the profits from the American release go to making back the money they spent and getting more to license another series as well as just function as a business. One of the problems in the industry is that a number of Japanese companies charge too much for series that they don't understand won't do as well in the US as in Japan.
i see
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Old 2010-08-19, 05:18   Link #71
Equidistant
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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
Black Butler is a big hit in both Japan and America. It was one of the top sellers in 2009 in Japan and the first volume released in America sold well too. I'd imagine she's hardly in any financial trouble
Was it? I remember seeing somewhere that her volumes averaged around 17,000 copies per in Japan. Those don't seem like top seller numbers, but I'm not really too sure about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
Depends on the deal. Most of the time, the Japanese studio demands a price for the license, the American company pays it, and the profits from the American release go to making back the money they spent and getting more to license another series as well as just function as a business. One of the problems in the industry is that a number of Japanese companies charge too much for series that they don't understand won't do as well in the US as in Japan.
It's not really the job of Japanese companies to find out what sells in the US though. If R1 companies are being charged a ridiculous amount for something they feel isn't going to sell good in the R1 market, then they just shouldn't license it.
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Old 2010-08-19, 05:46   Link #72
fertygo
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Originally Posted by CantQuiteGuess View Post
Was it? I remember seeing somewhere that her volumes averaged around 17,000 copies per in Japan. Those don't seem like top seller numbers, but I'm not really too sure about it.
.
False, Kuroshitshuji manga volume always selled between 100-200k
And the anime itself selled around 10k (maybe this is what you meant) which is great number.
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Old 2010-08-19, 06:12   Link #73
Royal_Devil
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Originally Posted by CantQuiteGuess View Post
Was it? I remember seeing somewhere that her volumes averaged around 17,000 copies per in Japan. Those don't seem like top seller numbers, but I'm not really too sure about it.
It was in the top ten selling series in 2009. Sold over a million copies total.

Quote:
It's not really the job of Japanese companies to find out what sells in the US though. If R1 companies are being charged a ridiculous amount for something they feel isn't going to sell good in the R1 market, then they just shouldn't license it.
But there is a vocal demand from fans for some of these series. Lucky Star for example was a lose for Bandai despite its popularity on the net. Funimation also takes a lose for many of the fan favorites they license but they at least have DBZ to make up for it. It may be old but DBZ still accounts for 50% of their profits
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Old 2010-08-19, 06:35   Link #74
Equidistant
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Originally Posted by fertygo View Post
False, Kuroshitshuji manga volume always selled between 100-200k
And the anime itself selled around 10k (maybe this is what you meant) which is great number.
I thought I had to be wrong about that, giving that the anime got a second season. Thanks for the info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
It was in the top ten selling series in 2009. Sold over a million copies total.



But there is a vocal demand from fans for some of these series. Lucky Star for example was a lose for Bandai despite its popularity on the net. Funimation also takes a lose for many of the fan favorites they license but they at least have DBZ to make up for it. It may be old but DBZ still accounts for 50% of their profits
True, but in these cases the R1 companies had expectations that these titles would sell. It's always a gamble when you base expectations off internet popularity, I'd think if enough of these really niche shows fell short, they'd stop licensing so many of them.
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Old 2010-08-19, 06:56   Link #75
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
It was in the top ten selling series in 2009. Sold over a million copies total.



But there is a vocal demand from fans for some of these series. Lucky Star for example was a lose for Bandai despite its popularity on the net. Funimation also takes a lose for many of the fan favorites they license but they at least have DBZ to make up for it. It may be old but DBZ still accounts for 50% of their profits
These companies aren't generously and intentionally "taking a lost" to satisfy fan demand. They have a reasonable expectation that "vocal demand" means that the anime will sell well, because in pretty much every other entertainment industry, "vocal demand" typically does translate into actual sales.


Sadly, this is frequently not the case with anime, and when I try to look at things from the perspective of an animation studio/R1 distributor of anime, this is probably the one thing that I would find the most vexing (much moreso than fansubs themselves, per se; if I was head of a dubbing company and/or R1 distributor, I'd view fansubs as free advertising).


So, to be blunt, vocal demand is unfortunately not always a good indicator for how well an anime is likely to sell.

This has made the job of R1 companies pretty hard. Determining which animes to purchase the licenses of, and which ones not to bother with, has become a real crapshoot for them.
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Old 2010-08-19, 07:58   Link #76
CryptWizard
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Originally Posted by Metropolisforever View Post
You know, this reminds me of something...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGM8PT1eAvY
Quote:
This video contains content from Vevo, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.
How fitting.
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Old 2010-08-19, 10:15   Link #77
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
It's not really for free though. If the commercials were included, then maybe something could be made of that argument, but they aren't, and most of what people watch now is from pay channels like AT-X.
So? What about when someone records something one and they strip out the commercials?

Quote:
This really isn't true. Quality in fansubs exists because of work ethic, not because you care about the show or the fans. I hated at least half the shows I fansubbed, maybe more. Most subbers really don't give a damn about the show or the quality of their work. They do it because they are bored/have lots of free time on their hands.
If someone didn't care about something, they wouldn't do it. Fansubbers sub shows they like and want to watch, and there is also a sort of pride/ego thing, too. Gets their name out there as one of the biggest and/or quickest fansubbing groups. Thus, the vast majority of people who fansub want to do a goob and/or love what they do.

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Also, companies have to care about quality too. Companies have been sunk before due to poor releases. (Ex: Toei USA)
Yes, poor is one thing. Mediocre or barely average is another. When anime is made in Japan, they have tons of profession seiyu to choose from, go through a ton of auditions, and get the best (even for secondary and minor roles). There isn't a huge VA network in the west like there is Japan, so there are much fewer people to pick from with auditions. And if a company can get away with lower costs by using the mixing guy for a voice, they'll do it.

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The point isn't to remove content from the web. It's to make sure the right people are actually seeing the profits from their work. Right now, most of the money is being made by the people who operate these illegal sites.
Long before anime was sold as DVDs, fansubbers distributed works on laserdisc and CDs. It was done without profit. When I torrent something, no one is making a profit. I have adblock installed, so even when I stream I'm not viewing any ads. Thus, no profit for anyone there, either.

Of course, I assume there are still people without adblock, but it's not for me.
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Old 2010-08-19, 14:33   Link #78
Heiwatsuki
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i was about to post a long article that had to do with bayoab but kaijo said everything before me XD. Yeah, if fansubbers didnt care about viewers, then they wouldnt be subbing. Thank you fan subbers and manga translators for all your hard work . also.. 100k-200k is good? then the author of slam dunk must be rich, lol. (over 100m copiez)
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Old 2010-08-19, 15:41   Link #79
GDB
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Originally Posted by xKou View Post
also.. 100k-200k is good? then the author of slam dunk must be rich, lol. (over 100m copiez)
Per volume, not total series publication. Only series that consistently breaks a million per volume nowadays I believe is One Piece. Naruto does it from time to time, as did Fullmetal Alchemist. The only other one that's done it this year was Nodame Cantabile. I'd assume Fairy Tale might pull in similar numbers from time to time.

However, it seems Kuroshitsuji pulls in numbers around 600k or so per volume. At least, that's what volume 8 pulled in.
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Old 2010-08-21, 07:49   Link #80
WBoon
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Did someone say that we'd get arrested for viewing or downloading a video clip? That this is a criminal act, on the Internet?

Guess this is what you call a revolution.
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