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View Poll Results: Who’s Under the Mask?
Madara 104 32.91%
Madara’s Son 14 4.43%
Madara’s Clone 30 9.49%
Madara’s Ghost/Soul/Poltergeist given shape... 33 10.44%
Obito 59 18.67%
Obito’s Body, but not really Obito... 55 17.41%
Someone else’s body (not Obito’s)... 21 6.65%
Zetsu’s Love Child... 23 7.28%
Tobirama/Sarutobi/or anyone with a 'tobi' in their name... 16 5.06%
Bruce Wayne or other… 69 21.84%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 316. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-07-27, 16:51   Link #281
Suomi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cael View Post
I've been looking at all the True Madara pictures revealed thus far and comparing them to the shots of Tobi taking off his mask. To me, the sinlge bag under the eyes is Madara's trade mark facial feature and it is also on the face that is briefly exposed behind Tobi's mask. To me, that shows that that the face is not Madara's brother's or anyone else's, but Madara's. Age aside, because we don't really know what happend between the VotE and the Kyuubi attack. I do agree that the other lines could indicate some type of damage, and not necessarily age lines.

On the other side of the mask we are missing an eye hole. I don't know if this has been covered yet, but could it be because he used Izanagi during his fight with Hashirama (to save his life) at some point and has never been able to open his eye again, reguardless of translpant?

I noticed something else when looking back through the flashbacks... from childhood to his fight at the VotE Madara has long hair. The next time we see him he has short hair in his fight against Minato. When talking to Sasuke about Itachi, when he mentioned Itachi found him, he is shown with long hair again. This is (12 years?) after? When he shows up with Zetsu after Sasori's death, he again has short hair. Does this mean anything?
Hmm, i never noticed the eye bags...interesting!

The Izanagi theory is a good one. It would make sense and explain the one eye thing, as you said...a distinct possibility!!

I don't think the hair means anything, unless it was perhaps a way of disguising himself.
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Old 2010-07-27, 17:13   Link #282
james0246
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Now that a new page has started, I will post again .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
The deductions of these characters are a piece of evidence. But it is one thing to regard it as evidence, and another to regard their deductions as the entire truth. Itachi didn't figure everything out. It was established that Tobi was able to keep some secrets from Itachi. Furthermore Minato was not able to come to a conclusion about Tobi. He suspects Madara, but his final verdict is that he doesn't really know. And that's the state we, as the audience, have come to as well.
These deductions are more than just pieces of evidence though, they are testimonials based off observations from some of the most respected (and at least 3 of the 4 are some of the strongest in the series...though strength doesn't necessarily add credibility to their stances or observations) Shinobi in the series. This isn't Joe Shinobi claiming that Madara is back, it's Itachi. This isn't Dick Nin wondering if Madara could have been behind the Kyuubi attack, it's Jiraiya. And this isn't any other name for a mook you can come up with putting specific pieces together to come up with the name Madara, it's Minato. If anyone else had made these speculations and observations, I would readily agree with you as to the validity of their claim, but besides Sarutobi himself, there are few more trusted sources in the series.

Consequently, I heavily weigh their observations when coming to a conclusion. (Yes, this could constitute a potential appeal to authority, but for 3 separate (intelligent) characters to all come to a similar conclusion independent of each other bears some weight and helps to alleviate the potential fallacy of appealing strictly to authority.)

(Additionally, there is one other that has seen Tobi's face, but calls him Madara. I speak, of course, of Kisame, who was shown Tobi's face and addressed the person behind the mask as Madara. Now, this isn't 100% confirmation of anything, considering that Obito/Izuna/etc could have simply told others that his name was "Madara", but the fact that Kisame acounts Tobi as "Madara", is certainly servicable support.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
We suspect Madara but we also suspect that there's something else. So let's start there instead of making the assumption that we've figured out more than the story's characters have.
And that's where all our discussions have started...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Kishimoto has never given us a definitive answer. What Kishimoto has given us is a masked villain with several unanswered questions. We'll get the definitive answer when the mask comes off.
Whatever the case, the databook released at the end of 2008 definitively names Tobi and Madara and Madara as Tobi. And while this could change, there really hasn't been any specific (and unambiguous) evidence to suggest that Tobi isn't Madara (rather there are "hints" that he could have a different body, and the Kabuto Summoning could be something, but all of that could simply be red herrings to throw the audience off track).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
I'm basing my deductions on what I see in the manga. I don't see how that's less factual than what you base your deductions on. Is it that you think "facts" come from the databook and "hints" come from the manga?
In the manga, Tobi said he was Madara, and he claimed to be alive since his defeat at VotE. That is an indisputable fact, and consequently any modern theory of Tobi must account for this fact. But, it isn't necessarily the truth. And it is from that possibility that we can then speculate with what Tobi/Madara said (Tobi is Madara, but...), or try and develop theories that draw away from what Tobi/Madara said (Tobi isn't Madara because...).

That being said, since the data books act as encyclopedias of facts and hints, placing everything into context and often providing new "hints"; their weight as evidence is just as valid, if not more so in some instances, than just ambiguous hints in the week to week manga chapters (specifically, in one case, you have a potential ambiguous image or moment, but in the books you have actual explanations that commonly leave some ambiguity when they discuss events yet to be shown). (Obviously you will disagree with this, and it is a point of contention between us that will undoubtedly persist.)

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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
What you're doing is the opposite of what I'm doing. You're starting with the conclusion and then modifying it as we get more evidence, whereas I start with the evidence and use that to form a conclusion.
Actually you have it a bit backwards. It's not that I started with a conclusion, but rather I came to the new conclusion (Tobi=Madara) after invalidating, or at least significantly calling into question, my previous existing theories.

Specifically, up until 2008 or so, I believed the Tobi=Obito theory to have a good chance of becoming canon (bear in mind, Tobi wasn't important until after the 2nd Deidara battle); I still felt it was a red herring (much the same as many of the Danzou theories), but with the evidence on hand, it was a compelling theory (and the theory I would start with, and try to “disprove”). But, with the introduction of the plot twist of Madara (whose name and actions had been foreshadowed before Obito was even introduced), I weighed the new data and found the Tobi=Obito was not as complete as I thought. And as time went by, and the Tobi=Obito argument started devolving to simple comparisons (hair, height, and other physical appearance arguments), while more and more info about Madara (or at least information presented that a person like Madara was more likely to posses), it appeared less and less likely that Obito was connected to Tobi (or at least not connected in any direct way).

Finally, with the release of the third data book, which acknowledged Tobi as Madara and Madara as Tobi, I was forced to acknowledge that Obito did not fit the current evidence (there was still evidence to support him being Tobi, but I found it to "weigh" less than Madara=Tobi), consequently I was forced to draw the evidence to its natural conlusion (Madara=Tobi), and go back to the drawing board with the new "conclusion" that Madara=Tobi. From there, I could then start the "experiment" over again looking for new discrepancies and new evidence that would contradict the new theory of Madara=Tobi (for instance, I always found the theory of Madara simply being alive (due to "strong chakra") to be lacking, so when the connection between Zetsu and Tobi was revealed, I slowly began to see it is a way to explain much of Madara's little problems (being weaker, not using MS, etc), but the inclusion of Zetsu still didn't detract from Madara=Tobi, rather it potentially added to it).

(I reject Obito in your theory, mostly because it seems so pointless (and not just because Obito presents no real character development for the leads). If all Madara/Zetsu needed was a Uchiha body, there were undoubtedly far better bodies that a master spy/stealth expert could have picked up. The use of a dead Obito just seems so random when there is an entire clan of better choices...This doesn't mean that I think Obito is an impossible choice though, I just find it unlikely considering much of the evidence.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
It's not dissimilar from people who take the Bible to be the ultimate truth and then modify its interpretation as scientific facts become available.
That's not really a fair comparison. The Bible (as we know it) is a complete work, and has been for hundreds of years. So, basing any opinions off of the characters in the novel is completely different than trying to speculate off of characters in a work-in-progress. It’s not like new info on Samson will be revealed in the novel (you’d have to go outside the novel to study the mythology surrounding some of the books characters), whereas until Naruto finishes new info will be constantly revealed. Consequently, any theories we might have as to the characters or their powers will, by necessity, need to be either expanded or discarded as new information is introduced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
where was he?
This is probably the most relevant question you've asked. Not to disparage your other questions and answers, but this one is actually unanswerable since it is completely unknown what Madara did during those 40+ years of seemingly inactivity. I could speculate that Madara became Mizukage sometime during this time, but it is unknown when Madara/Tobi became Mizukage, and it is unknown when he left, so such speculation is impossible. But, that doesn't necessitate Obito's appearance at all (for obvious reasons).

In the end, there is really only one piece of evidence that I can really use to call into question the theory of Madara=Tobi, and that is the mask. As you said in a previous post, "Why does he wear a mask?" is an important question, and for quite awhile I merely accounted the mask as a precaution against any potential fail-safe from Itachi placed in Sasuke (I've also claimed that the mask and hidden face could simply be a red herring to keep the reader's off balance and always questioning Tobi's motives (because, without the mask or the "mystery", Madara is a fairly "simplistic" villain). But, with Sasuke's eye transplant (and wearing bandages for the time being), the mask is a bigger question than ever. And when you add this with his reaction to Kabuto's summon, I definitely felt there was, at last, some real evidence that could call into question Tobi's alleged identity (obviously you've felt that other evidence (Zetsu calling him Tobi; some physical similarities; etc) was sufficient, but I did not).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
I think that there's a very real possibility that the lines on Tobi's face aren't age wrinkles. So, I pasted together a bunch of images of wrinkly Danzou and Chiyo for comparison with the lines on Tobi's face and the lines on White Zetsu's face.
Definitely possible (though I tend to agree with Cael as to the bags under Tobi's eyes).

But, one quick point, whatever face Tobi/Madara was going to show Sasuke back in 397, had to be a face Sasuke could accept as potentially being Madara. Consequently, either we have to call the face into question (i.e. since Tobi is somehow related to Zetsu, it is possible that the face can change...in which case it is impossible to speculate as to Tobi's identity), or the face is somehow relatable enough to Sasuke to convey "Madara". So, if the face is too youthful, I imagine that Sasuke would be less likely to believe what he was being told (it is one thing to take "Madara's" advice at face value (pun intended), it is another to take a stranger’s advice (even if they have a Sharingan) at face value).

Quote:
Originally Posted by herculan View Post
Spoiler for tobi=obito:
Honestly, besides the eyes, which are the same for all Uchiha, there isn't much there that is actually similar. The eye shape is completely different. The eye brow is completely different. Hell, so are the ears. The hair is similar though (this was one of the first arguments to support Tobi=Obito).

Last edited by james0246; 2010-07-28 at 01:19.
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Old 2010-08-05, 09:06   Link #283
Suomi
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I had a thought.

Maybe it's someone else entirely, but using Madara's body!
I don't know how i feel about this. I think it's unlikely but possible...

Like, after the battle in which he was supposed to be dead, maybe this person found his body and took it over or whatever. and Kabuto maybe knew and that was teh 'secret' he spoke of.
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Old 2010-08-05, 09:27   Link #284
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Originally Posted by Sworn to Believe View Post
I had a thought.

Maybe it's someone else entirely, but using Madara's body!
I don't know how i feel about this. I think it's unlikely but possible...
No.... Tobi cannot be someone else we do not know..., because this will only make Tobi's Mask to be nonsense....

why kishi had to hide his face if he is a comepletely new character???
Tobi must be someone we really know!

IMO.... tobi cannot be Madara since we have already seen Madara's face... because that would not make sense why kshi is hiding his face.... even if tobi is hiding something in his left eye., it would still not make sense why kishi is hiding his face...
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Old 2010-08-05, 12:07   Link #285
Cael
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I've gone through a lot of possibilities to try and come up with a theory that Tobi is someone else, but it always comes back around. It cannot NOT be Madara. He knows too much, he talks about Uchiha and Senju, the destined rivalry, the history, the secrets, everything. I've even tried the possiblity that it might be his brother, but going back and reading his conversations as if that were true just doesn't fit. Madara's token facial feature is the small bag underneath his eyes. This is seen when he takes off his mask. The reason he wears it and probably the biggest reason, is secrecy. It's the core of what he probably believes ninjas are all about. Similar to Danzou's scolding to Sasuke.
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Old 2010-08-05, 18:07   Link #286
Artimus_Prime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cael View Post
I've gone through a lot of possibilities to try and come up with a theory that Tobi is someone else, but it always comes back around. It cannot NOT be Madara. He knows too much, he talks about Uchiha and Senju, the destined rivalry, the history, the secrets, everything. I've even tried the possiblity that it might be his brother, but going back and reading his conversations as if that were true just doesn't fit. Madara's token facial feature is the small bag underneath his eyes. This is seen when he takes off his mask. The reason he wears it and probably the biggest reason, is secrecy. It's the core of what he probably believes ninjas are all about. Similar to Danzou's scolding to Sasuke.
the only other character that would fit such a profile (and be someone that we have been introduced to) would have to be older...much older. like ol'sage 6 eldest son. but that couldnt be possible right? i mean i doubt he wanted to use the power of the bijuu before pops split'em up...and his eyes couldnt have been on par with EMS since they were only second generation. he must be another red herring
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Old 2010-08-05, 20:12   Link #287
Suomi
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Originally Posted by yakumo-chan View Post
No.... Tobi cannot be someone else we do not know..., because this will only make Tobi's Mask to be nonsense....

why kishi had to hide his face if he is a comepletely new character???
Tobi must be someone we really know!

IMO.... tobi cannot be Madara since we have already seen Madara's face... because that would not make sense why kshi is hiding his face.... even if tobi is hiding something in his left eye., it would still not make sense why kishi is hiding his face...
he has to have something to do with madara.

and why hide his face? we don't know. He could have had something to do with Madara, in any case.
and it was just an idle thought in any case
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Old 2010-08-12, 23:59   Link #288
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Old 2010-08-14, 21:34   Link #289
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Tobi is Madara.
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Old 2010-08-14, 23:33   Link #290
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Originally Posted by Fruits Basket Fan View Post
Tobi is Madara.
Simple and to the point, I like your answer

At the moment, I agree that all we can assume is that Tobi=Madara. We don't really have solid evidence to prove otherwise.
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Old 2010-08-18, 09:22   Link #291
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Originally Posted by Sworn to Believe View Post
Simple and to the point, I like your answer

At the moment, I agree that all we can assume is that Tobi=Madara. We don't really have solid evidence to prove otherwise.
yeah but solid evidence wont come until there is an explicit reveal in the manga of Tobi's character. since that hasnt happen I cant say with confidence Tobi=Madara...true he as been referred to as uchiha madara, but until the mask comes off, other assumptions can be made.
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Old 2010-08-18, 19:13   Link #292
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Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
yeah but solid evidence wont come until there is an explicit reveal in the manga of Tobi's character. since that hasnt happen I cant say with confidence Tobi=Madara...true he as been referred to as uchiha madara, but until the mask comes off, other assumptions can be made.
He knows all the Uchiha secrets including Itachi's true intentions. He's been referred to as Uchiha Madara. He has been shown respect.

I think that most other ideas (besides possibly having a connection with Obito or Zetsu) don't even make sense. But that's just me.

Overall I think that he is, or at least has some connection with, Madara.

Since the most evidence, though not really "so rock solid it counts as PROOF", suggests that he is Madara (or has some connection with him) and there is very little or no evidence that he is anyone else.
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Old 2010-08-18, 22:57   Link #293
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Up until recently, I was thinking Tobi is definitely Madara, but all the recent clues (especially his interactions with Kabuto) makes me want him to be someone else.

I just think it would be a great twist if this was some other ninja (preferably Madara's brother) who took Madara's death as an opportunity to seize his identity. I especially like the idea of him keeping all of those extra eyes due to some paranoia that he'll have his current ones stolen again.

That said, he's probably just Madara anyway. :P
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Old 2010-08-19, 21:37   Link #294
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Originally Posted by Sworn to Believe View Post
He knows all the Uchiha secrets including Itachi's true intentions. He's been referred to as Uchiha Madara. He has been shown respect.

I think that most other ideas (besides possibly having a connection with Obito or Zetsu) don't even make sense. But that's just me.

Overall I think that he is, or at least has some connection with, Madara.

Since the most evidence, though not really "so rock solid it counts as PROOF", suggests that he is Madara (or has some connection with him) and there is very little or no evidence that he is anyone else.
exactly my point. the evidence we have received so far only suggests a possible connection with Madara. there are just too many takebacks:

Paraphrased example:

Minato: the only one capable of this level of attack is uchiha madara. but he is long dead...
Tobi: i wouldnt say that...
Minato: well it doesnt matter who you are. if you are here to destroy the leaf, i have to stop you
(we never get a definite answer)

tobi is connected with madara. i'll side with that. i just think the reveal will be a little more than simple...
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Old 2010-08-19, 22:22   Link #295
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Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post

tobi is connected with madara. i'll side with that. i just think the reveal will be a little more than simple...
agreed in that respect. Kishi is never simple.
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Old 2010-08-19, 22:41   Link #296
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Having seen the fight with Madara against the 4th Hokage. Do you think the Tobi/Madara character we see in the manga have other abilities of Sharingan like Amaratatsu, Tsykiyomi and Susanoo?

With the Eye of the Moon plan, it's implied he has Tsukiyomi, but why does he not use it more abundantly to avoid fights?
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Old 2010-08-19, 22:56   Link #297
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Originally Posted by epyon96 View Post
Having seen the fight with Madara against the 4th Hokage. Do you think the Tobi/Madara character we see in the manga have other abilities of Sharingan like Amaratatsu, Tsykiyomi and Susanoo?

With the Eye of the Moon plan, it's implied he has Tsukiyomi, but why does he not use it more abundantly to avoid fights?
Maybe he can't? Here's a theory, Minato sealed away Madara's ability to use the Kyuubi (or something to that effect), and we all know that the secret purpose of the MS is to control the Kyuubi, so could Minato have sealed away Madara's MS powers? The only partial evidence I can think of to support this theory (besides the fact that Madara claims to be "incomplete" and "weaker", both possible indicators to a lack of control over the MS) is the fact that there are seals that can be used to control bloodlines - specifically, the Hyuuga's famous curse seal prevents their bloodline from being taken from the bodies of those who bear the seal, and sicne Minato is clearly a fuinjutsu master, I wouldn't put it past him to be able to use a curse seal on Madara.
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Old 2010-08-20, 04:00   Link #298
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Old 2010-08-20, 10:08   Link #299
Artimus_Prime
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Maybe he can't? Here's a theory, Minato sealed away Madara's ability to use the Kyuubi (or something to that effect), and we all know that the secret purpose of the MS is to control the Kyuubi, so could Minato have sealed away Madara's MS powers? The only partial evidence I can think of to support this theory (besides the fact that Madara claims to be "incomplete" and "weaker", both possible indicators to a lack of control over the MS) is the fact that there are seals that can be used to control bloodlines - specifically, the Hyuuga's famous curse seal prevents their bloodline from being taken from the bodies of those who bear the seal, and sicne Minato is clearly a fuinjutsu master, I wouldn't put it past him to be able to use a curse seal on Madara.
interesting thought, but while minato did seal away tobi/madara kyuubi control with the contract seal, im not so sure he sealed away the MS powers. Why? Tobi/Madara as of the fight with shodaime, doesnt have MS powers. His body was to wounded and the body he is using now whether a zetsu clone or a grandchild of some sort (hehehe), doesnt confer him the ability to use his original powers. How was he able to control the kyuubi then? As witness by Sasuke's mind rape of Naruto, the 3 tomoe sharingan seems to be enough to garner a conversation with the kyuubi (im assuming chakra has something to do with it as well). Tobi/madara was at one point able to enter a contract (perhaps genjustu induced) with the kyuubi that Minato was able to negate (the hokages probably had this seal on hand in case a sharingan user ever rose to take up madaras mantle...by the way, can ANY contract be negated with a seal??) at the very least, it makes sense why madara didnt try to snatch the kyuubi away from naruto for 16 yrs...

anyways, this is my take on why tobi doesnt use MS powers
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Old 2010-08-26, 19:59   Link #300
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kishi still doesnt show Tobi's face in chapter 507
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