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Old 2010-08-19, 22:52   Link #81
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by secretzfan View Post
I don't see how touching the ground really mattered he still didn't see it comimg either way you look at it.
Thing is though, he would have NEVER seen it coming...
Really the ONLY way Stark could have stopped such an attack is if he KNEW Kyoraku could jump into shadows and attack from them... And keeping that secret would have been easy for Kyoraku, since all he had to do was run inside the nearest building and get out of Stark's sight to hop into a shadow... Stark does not know where he went and the next thing he knows he's stabbed from a shadow...

And hell, the main reason he stopped paying attention to Kyoraku was not because of the vizards, but because kyoraku decided to play dead after the previous hit... stark payed him no mind after that...

Vizards did nothing really... not to mention that being a distraction is something even a simple vice captain can pull off. Really you ignore the true point that the power of the vizards is what should have been the ONLY logical solution to even having a prayer against the Vasto Lorde Arrancars
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Old 2010-08-19, 22:57   Link #82
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Originally Posted by secretzfan View Post
I don't see how touching the ground really mattered he still didn't see it comimg either way you look at it.
Well for one, if Stark didn't make contact with the surface, Shunsui wouldn't of been able to pull off his attack. I'm questioning how he was able to pull it off, despite his demeanor, Stark isn't a slacker that would simply allow someone to get behind him, get into his shadow and stab him...
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Old 2010-08-19, 23:09   Link #83
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Originally Posted by DjTrizz View Post
Well for one, if Stark didn't make contact with the surface, Shunsui wouldn't of been able to pull off his attack. I'm questioning how he was able to pull it off, despite his demeanor, Stark isn't a slacker that would simply allow someone to get behind him, get into his shadow and stab him...
how can we really say how do we know that Starrk really didn't see it coming, because the way I look at it he didn't see it as he busy fighting Love and Rose
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Old 2010-08-20, 01:00   Link #84
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Originally Posted by DjTrizz View Post
Well for one, if Stark didn't make contact with the surface, Shunsui wouldn't of been able to pull off his attack. I'm questioning how he was able to pull it off, despite his demeanor, Stark isn't a slacker that would simply allow someone to get behind him, get into his shadow and stab him...
We don't know if it he had to have been on the surface or not, just that he cast a shadow that Shunsui could touch. And Stark wasn't exactly expecting a sneak attack from the depths of the shadows was he?
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Old 2010-08-20, 01:10   Link #85
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loving the backstory , is halibel really a VL?
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Old 2010-08-20, 01:14   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Lendial View Post
loving the backstory , is halibel really a VL?
Short answer...

Yes.
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Old 2010-08-20, 02:05   Link #87
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I still don't like that Starrk died.
He was the best guy in this whole damn arc IMO.

And Halibel was killed. I didn't really like her anyways, so meh.
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Old 2010-08-20, 02:20   Link #88
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I still don't like that Starrk died.
He was the best guy in this whole damn arc IMO.
I do agree that i atleast like the anime added to him... Namely the part with Lilynette's sacrifice, that was pretty painful...
Overall, he disappointed, but i guess the anime did do a good job with what Kubo left them to work with


Frankly, i'm still wondering how the how thing with Halibel's trio combining their powers worked... I mean, they were just somehow able to rip off their arms and create something truly monsterous... what exactly allows them to do that? unl;ess i missed something, it was never really explained
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Old 2010-08-20, 02:48   Link #89
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Originally Posted by secretzfan View Post
how can we really say that if Kyoraku really did use the shadow game how do we know that Starrk really didn't see it coming, because the way I look at it he didn't see it as he busy fighting Love and Rose
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Originally Posted by Mr.Amazing View Post
We don't know if it he had to have been on the surface or not, just that he cast a shadow that Shunsui could touch. And Stark wasn't exactly expecting a sneak attack from the depths of the shadows was he?
well, you can't exactly cast a shadow when you're way up in the sky, you have to be somewhat near some kind of surface.

this seems like something that should of been explored better, yeah it's cool how Shunsui came out of the shadow, but it's another thing how he was able to get that close and be unnoticed.
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Old 2010-08-20, 10:48   Link #90
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I feel like you missed my point. So instead, I'll pose a question to you. Can you please provide evidence that proves Aizen used the hougyoku on arrancar that existed before the time he started making them himself? Or better yet, please prove either Hallibel, Barry, or Stark were already Arrancar prior to meeting Aizen. Because all the evidence points to the contrary.
Grand Fisher is known to have been the first test of the hougyoku on a preexisting arrancar as he became an arrancar at the end of his arc. It is clear that D-roy also was upgraded as he appered as an arrancar at the same time with a snake like lower half. Spoon boy was also shown to have changed some what from the pre hougyoku flash backs. Barry clearly was not an arrancar prior to meeting Aizen, Hallibel is hard to call as she did not have a full mask but it did not look broken either, and Stark and Lilynette were arrancar when Aizen meet them since both of them existed at the time.

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It would hardly be the first time Kubo did this though. I know I've brought this up several times before on these boards (so those of you who've seen this point already, try and forgive me), but there was a time when Rukia stated that a "lone shinigami cannot oppose" a gillian. She was terrified of the thing and thought only a team of elites could take one on. She didn't even give us the impression that she herself could defeat one even if she had her full powers back. But yet later on, she proceeds to defeat opponents many times stronger than a Gillian by herself.

Notice the two things these situations have in common though is that both Rukia and Hitsugaya were going by hearsay only. Neither one of them had ever encountered either a gillian or a vasto lorde prior to speaking about it. All they had to go on were rumors of things Kubo himself hadn't even finalized the details on at the time. So is it possible for the VL's strength to be greatly exaggerated? You bet it is.
The new data book has spelled out that "most of the Espada" were VL class.
As for what Hitsugaya said at that time there were only 10 known captian class shingami in ss nothing short of a captain class shinigami would be able to take a VL and even then the outcome of that battle is a toss up. and his exact quote was 10 VL and Azien and his group would doom SS if they all atacked at once so thats 10 captian class shinigami vs 13 captian class hollows and shinigami pluss Azein's hax. They would have doomed SS.
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Old 2010-08-20, 12:01   Link #91
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The way I see it, all the power level in Bleach is meaningless as Kubo made them totally inconsistent. Simply look at Ichigo as a measuring stick and he is all over the place in terms of power level in different arcs.
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Old 2010-08-20, 13:05   Link #92
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Grand Fisher is known to have been the first test of the hougyoku on a preexisting arrancar as he became an arrancar at the end of his arc. It is clear that D-roy also was upgraded as he appered as an arrancar at the same time with a snake like lower half. Spoon boy was also shown to have changed some what from the pre hougyoku flash backs.
Jeez. Those two-three pages that point that out happened so long ago...I'm not surprised to see I forgot about it. So point taken. I stand completely corrected.

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The new data book has spelled out that "most of the Espada" were VL class.
I'm well aware of that.

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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
As for what Hitsugaya said at that time there were only 10 known captian class shingami in ss nothing short of a captain class shinigami would be able to take a VL and even then the outcome of that battle is a toss up.
A lot of the translations I've come across either directly state or heavily imply non-arrancar VL's to be even stronger than the average captain. This seems to be the source for all the disappointment. If normal VL's were supposed to be superior to "average" captains, then the arrancar VL's should've performed much better than they did. But a lot of them ended up being defeated in 1-on-1 battles against captain lvl opponents. The top 3 were really the only ones to sort of live up to the expectations in that regard.
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Old 2010-08-20, 21:18   Link #93
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post

A lot of the translations I've come across either directly state or heavily imply non-arrancar VL's to be even stronger than the average captain. This seems to be the source for all the disappointment. If normal VL's were supposed to be superior to "average" captains, then the arrancar VL's should've performed much better than they did. But a lot of them ended up being defeated in 1-on-1 battles against captain lvl opponents. The top 3 were really the only ones to sort of live up to the expectations in that regard.
Likely the top 4 (or 5 depending on how you view Yami) were the only VL. These are the ones forbidden to release underneath the dome. We also know Aaroneiro was the only gillian in the group, but Noitora mentioned that a VL wouldn't be defeated by him in combat meaning that he's probably not a VL and likely no arrancar ranked under him would be either.

That'd mean Ulq was the only VL (assuming he is one) defeated in 1-on-1 battle, but I definitely wouldn't call the form Ichigo was in at the time "average" captain-level.

Still, after such a big deal was made about the vastro lordes, it was a huge disappointment to learn they made up a part of the Espada after nearly all of them been killed off. And that it was only pointed out in the anime and databook
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Old 2010-08-21, 02:50   Link #94
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Just think of what could have happened if the Espada all atacked SS at the same time. Worst case: Espada 8 easly handles any of the jr captains baring maybe Soifon. Espada 7 goes against the 11 squad he turns kenpachi and part of his squad against its self. Grim Most likely could handle any of the Jr captains. It took Kenpachi giving his all to kill spoonboy and even then he almost died as well so barring old man Yamato curbstomping him he is a match for one of the 3 Sr captains as is Batboy and Hallibel, Stark can go toe to toe with 2 Sr captains by him self, and Barry was only killed by useing a forbiden Kido (it's the same one that got the guy that works at Urahara's shop thrown out of SS in the first place). Now add Tousen , Gin and Azein to the mix. SS might be able to pull off a win but the Espada would likely take a huge amount of the shinigami army with them add 2 or 3 more that are about Grims power level and likely the only ones standing after that fight would be Azein and maybe Yamato
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Old 2010-08-21, 04:03   Link #95
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Just think of what could have happened if the Espada all atacked SS at the same time. Worst case: Espada 8 easly handles any of the jr captains baring maybe Soifon. Espada 7 goes against the 11 squad he turns kenpachi and part of his squad against its self. Grim Most likely could handle any of the Jr captains. It took Kenpachi giving his all to kill spoonboy and even then he almost died as well so barring old man Yamato curbstomping him he is a match for one of the 3 Sr captains as is Batboy and Hallibel, Stark can go toe to toe with 2 Sr captains by him self, and Barry was only killed by useing a forbiden Kido (it's the same one that got the guy that works at Urahara's shop thrown out of SS in the first place). Now add Tousen , Gin and Azein to the mix. SS might be able to pull off a win but the Espada would likely take a huge amount of the shinigami army with them add 2 or 3 more that are about Grims power level and likely the only ones standing after that fight would be Azein and maybe Yamato
#9- Big and slow moving... sounds like a perfect target for Komamura
#8- He had to handicap VC level fighters... doesn't seem like a threat to the captains
#7- Byakuya... nuff' said
#6- counter with ichigo
#5- ONLY reason kenpachi nearly died is because he held back the WHOLE fight; in truth he was able to kill spoonyboy in ONE attack at anytime
#3- Well she was able to get an upperhand on Hitsugaya... but she'd probably get curb stomped once kenpachi or Byakuaya were done playing with their espada (and that there was the benefit of locking those two up in HM)
#2- Yes barry would be troublesome... ofcourse SS should have a kido captain which could pull off what Hachi did.
#1- Shunsui's shikai... nuff' said...
#0- well... we still have to see him in action

I left out Ulq mainly because his level of power confuses me... based on his fight with Ichigo, he actually seems like the most powerful of the espada we've seen, but he is not ranked as such, which implies he COULD be dealt with just as easily as the Stark... So ya, no clue how and if they could be dealt since the power level structure makes no sense

And yet, Old man Yamato and Unohana have yet to really do much... Not to mention some guys who are unaccounted for like Yuorichi and Urahara.
I guess i could still give the espada credit for atleast taking out ukitake; unless he manages to not get blindsided this time...

Aizen, Gin and Tousen are there... but i guess being the arrogant prick that he is, he'll probably just let his espada get wasted while he sits on the sidelines.
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Old 2010-08-21, 09:24   Link #96
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Well, a lot of the battles against the Espada were highly circumstantial.

Mayuri implanting the bugs in Ishida that allowed him counter Syzael's dolls for example, if Ishida had not happened to fight #8 then Mayuri possibly would've been no match for Syzael. Or Shunsui having two vizard captains distract Stark, giving him not only enough time to launch a sneak attack with his shikai, but also pushing Stark enough into using his most powerful attack which makes his guns disappear and forced Stark to fight up close. Or Ichigo facing an Ulqiuorra who has habit of putting neat little holes in his enemies' chests rather than, say, decapitating them.

Of course, that's assuming mostly all the same match-ups. Different match-ups could lead to drastically different outcomes in either side's favor. Even hypothetically, it's hard to imagine how a straight brawl between SS and HM's forces all at once would go down. It could be something like the scenario kagato wrote but that's not the only possible outcome. Including the vizards, Unohana, Issshin Urahara & gang, along with Aizen, WW, Gin and Tousen all fighting from the start, it seems *mostly* even (though Aizen is kind of a gamebreaker)
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Old 2010-08-21, 10:07   Link #97
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But definitely without Kido Bara's power breath would've caused so much damage to SS
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Old 2010-08-21, 12:00   Link #98
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Well, a lot of the battles against the Espada were highly circumstantial.

Mayuri implanting the bugs in Ishida that allowed him counter Syzael's dolls for example, if Ishida had not happened to fight #8 then Mayuri possibly would've been no match for Syzael. Or Shunsui having two vizard captains distract Stark, giving him not only enough time to launch a sneak attack with his shikai, but also pushing Stark enough into using his most powerful attack which makes his guns disappear and forced Stark to fight up close. Or Ichigo facing an Ulqiuorra who has habit of putting neat little holes in his enemies' chests rather than, say, decapitating them.
Actually, with Mayuri, he ALLOWED himself to get subjected to Syzael's attacks knowing he already had a counter... Under normal circumstances i doubt he would be so foolish; he'd send Nemu in to be the guinea pig... And a never even said that had to be the same match up. Syzael seemed very weak and probably could have been dealt with most other fighters with Bankai

And Stark, ya i STILL give the vizards no credit... Stark stopped paying attention to Shunsui all on his own when Shunsui decided to lie on the ground and play dead. And hell, even if it was needed ANY vice captain could have distracted Stark for a minute. Really all and all, Shunsui being able to kill Stark with nothing more than like two shikai attacks, is enough to make me think that most captains could have killed him with their Bankai's

really in a number of cases the same match ups do not need to happen. Half these guys would probably die from Mayuri's poison. Byakuaya and Kenpachi seem like they would be able to handle most of these guys aswell. Soi Fon at the least can probably kill some of the lower ranking members with her Shikai... A lot of the fights seem like they could easily be interchanged; hell halibel should probably consider herself lucky she got matched up with one of the weaker captains... Barry and #7 are the only ones that really seemed like they would need a more specific kind of fighter to deal with them

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Old 2010-08-21, 15:00   Link #99
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But definitely without Kido Bara's power breath would've caused so much damage to SS
It was incredibly broken power. And the thing is he didn't even have to release to use his aging/rotting ability. Releasing just created the extended aura.

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Actually, with Mayuri, he ALLOWED himself to get subjected to Syzael's attacks knowing he already had a counter... Under normal circumstances i doubt he would be so foolish; he'd send Nemu in to be the guinea pig... And a never even said that had to be the same match up. Syzael seemed very weak and probably could have been dealt with most other fighters with Bankai
He was physically weak, but then it's not like Mayuri's powerhouse either. Physically, he's one of the weakest captains according to the databook and most of his other stats barely average except for intelligence. He was defeated by Ishida. Both Mayuri and Syzael rely on studying their opponent. If the enemy does something they haven't anticipated they're largely screwed.

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And hell, even if it was needed ANY vice captain could have distracted Stark for a minute. Really all and all, Shunsui being able to kill Stark with nothing more than like two shikai attacks, is enough to make me think that most captains could have killed him with their Bankai's
No. The point was Rose and Love were powerful enough for Stark to use his wolf pack to defeat them. VC level wouldn't be enough for him to use it. He even says that he only used it because they were too powerful for normal attacks to do enough damage. Stark's wolves are numerous, invulnerable and he can control them precisely. Had he used that attack on Shunsui, he would be able to pinpoint where to attack from a distance and make it difficult for Shunsui to get close enough to attack on the color needed.

But anyways, we could argue circles about whose powers would defeat whose. So, I'm pretty much done with that. It happened the way it happened. On paper at least, the Espada's abilites seem perfectly on par with the captains' (save maybe Yamamoto's). Plotkai saves the good guys though. They always step in to save/heal each other when they're about to die. The bad guys barely gave two sh**s about each other. Hell, most of the time, the only time they step in is to finish off a member of their own team.

(Sigh) villains...
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Old 2010-08-21, 17:28   Link #100
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Bleach is shounen so the villains are destined to lose no matter how much we may like them.

But the problem with villains in Bleach is that most often Kubo seems out of ideas, so he disposes of them in a hurry using plotkai and bad writing.

So let's see:
Released Barragan uses only one ability. We never have a chance to know what his axe does.

Hitsugaya states that Halibel floods the battlestage to use her ultimate technique. We never get to see it.

The commander of exeqiusas (don't remember his name) is about to use his ultimate tech and likewise Yami conviniently kills him. As he does to Menory before she releases (ok no big deal)

And then Aaroniro. He releases... and that's it Game over. The list goes on (Grimmjaw's fraction, Halibel's fraction, some of Barragan's, Patros goons etc)

So should we see every single villain's ability? Of course not, but we could at least for the espada. They were supposed to be the super badies after all.
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