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Old 2010-08-21, 16:13   Link #461
UsagiTenpura
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It's also very disturbing, the idea that Beatrice 2 is younger then Rudolph yet he had incest with her or whatever.

Seriously, Kinzo is becoming a hole we can shove all the wrongs in the serie to.

... I'm more comfortable with the idea that Beato 1 either never existed (cause I think that submarine story makes Kinzo into a worthless jerk instead of a genius of timing) at this point.

Guy hates his life, hates being the head of the Ushiromiya and hates his wedding.
Then he still has 3 child.
He hates life enough he joins the army to get killed.
He also hates every women.
Instead he falls in love with a Submarine, an italian girl (even tho she's a women) and 10 tons of faded away marked gold.
She dies giving birth to a child, younger then his own children.
The daughter he supposedly loves of the women he supposedly loved (while hating everyone else, especially women) he forces to live in seclusion and keeps her more ignorant then an average elementary school student.
Somehow around the same time he has another daughter he hates from his wife he hates from his family he hates. He doesn't put her however through half the shit he put Beato-2.
While that happens he start to loan tons of money to his children, accept their husband/wife in the family (even allows Eva to keep her name for his love of Hideyoshi, whom he nontheless supposedly hate as he hates everyone)
He even apparently forces them to chose specific names, all western of course. He loves the west. He hates his family. 1 -1 =/= 2.
He even gets very upset at Rosa not naming Maria the way he wanted her to be named.
He hardcore incest/rape Beato-2, however she somehow magicallly remains innocent of the world. Even after giving birth. She then dies after of innocence overdose.
While he thouht it would be a good idea to keep Beato-2 secretly raised in Kuwadorian forever, he decided to make her own child be adopted by Krauss/Natsuhi. It doesn't work well and the child apparently dies. HE FINDS IT FUNNY.
He realizes somehow the child is still alive (after going through the same fate as her mother, but somehow miraculously surviving it) and sends it to an orphanage.
He eventually hires her to work under a false name and let her, whom he supposedly love, be abused by the rest of the family, including Natsuhi/Krauss who he supposedly hate.
He even makes her go through the troubles of doing two shifts at once by the sake of Kanon, cause Kinzo loves more men (not sexually... well as far as we know at least).
He makes her somehow his successor, HOWEVER, he also puts up the epitaph, to give the rest of the family, people he all hate and despise, a chance to become the successor.
Then he plans to bomb everyone on the island with a nuke after his own death.

Several of his close friends is aware of most to all of that and they don't mind, and continue to respect him and consider him a truly inteligent person.

So what's Kinzo in the end? A psychopath who spontaneously contradicts his own self every few mins? Who suffers froms tons of sins, including some which didn't even bring him anything, and often where he still in the end treat the people he's supposed to hate better then the ones he's supposed to love.

Either Umineko is the most far fetched ridiculously story ever, or this is all false informations.
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Old 2010-08-21, 16:18   Link #462
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Either Umineko is the most far fetched ridiculously story ever, or this is all false informations.
Actually, Umineko is full of facts (red truths) that are often misleading, and is therefore a story with many factual errors.

Also, it's quite possible that half of that isn't even true. Just fan speculation.
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Old 2010-08-21, 16:21   Link #463
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Seriously, Kinzo is becoming a hole we can shove all the wrongs in the serie to.
See the picture in my sig. Actually, see the whole thing.

Spoiler for Size:
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Old 2010-08-21, 16:23   Link #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
He makes her somehow his successor, HOWEVER, he also puts up the epitaph, to give the rest of the family, people he all hate and despise, a chance to become the successor.
The epitaph actually was solved by Beatrice-3, and was implied to be a rigged spectacle so that s/he would win and - well, this is me extrapolating here - nobody in the family would ask questions about his/her heritage. Kinzo died before he could do anything with it other than make a sobbing apology. That's not any less ridiculous, but I'm just clearing things up here : P.

EDIT: And I'm not saying that the rest of the family didn't have a chance to solve it, but...
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Old 2010-08-21, 16:26   Link #465
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You don't need an epitaph to make a rigged succession, you need a lawyer.
My point is he still publicly displayed it before his own death.

@ Olivier
I don't LIKE what I said. I wanted to really respect Kinzo, but after what I learn of arc 7, your signature became literally the truth about the Umineko world.
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Old 2010-08-21, 16:38   Link #466
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I don't like it either. But I am biased, I think, as I really like Kinzo. I kinda downplay some of the bad stuff he has to have done, but I still very much doubt these depictions of him. If for no other reason than, as Usagi has masterfully outlined, they don't really make a whole lot of sense put next to each other. Human beings can be full of contradictions, sure, but this aggregate portrait of Kinzo makes him out to be The Joker.
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Old 2010-08-21, 16:38   Link #467
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I don't LIKE what I said. I wanted to really respect Kinzo, but after what I learn of arc 7, your signature became literally the truth about the Umineko world.
Should it be in red, then, or should we instead doubt everything in Ep7 and otherwise? That's the real question here, and I vote for the latter.
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Old 2010-08-21, 16:39   Link #468
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
You don't need an epitaph to make a rigged succession, you need a lawyer.
My point is he still publicly displayed it before his own death.
Of course he had to display it publicly. It would be hard enough to make the family accept an heir out of thin air, nevermind bringing your family in to tell them "I created this riddle and gave it to one person secretly. The solved it and get my gold and bomb, wheeee!"
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Old 2010-08-21, 16:43   Link #469
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Hold it!

What could have possibly happened in Arc 7 to make that true? Hasn't it been said somewhere that the adults (Kinzo's kids) hadn't seen him cry that hard since their MOM died?
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Old 2010-08-21, 16:44   Link #470
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Say, Leon is supposed to be in the parlor. Does Battler ever enter the parlor during his ep4 search for all the bodies? Just a wacky out-there thought...
Ok, I just doublechecked it to be sure. Here is the full list of locations Battler lists as having visited during Ep4 party, in no particular order:
  • Guesthouse is presumed, since that's where Battler starts from.
  • Most mansion corridors and the entry hall are implied as you need to go through those to get anywhere. Entry hall is mentioned explicitly.
  • Kitchen.
  • Outside of chapel (but not inside).
  • Garden shed.
  • Arbor in the rose garden (background is of the wooden one).
  • Dining hall.
  • Jessica's room.
  • A guestroom with Kyrie corpse in it.
  • Well behind the mansion.
  • Boiler room.
Parlor is not on the list.
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Old 2010-08-21, 17:21   Link #471
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Parlor is not on the list.
If we assume that no existences are an illusion (an assumption EP7 seems to push us away from), Battler's also missing a corpse, isn't he ?

Interesting connection, given how many similarities that tea party game has with EP4.
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Old 2010-08-21, 17:40   Link #472
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If we assume that no existences are an illusion (an assumption EP7 seems to push us away from), Battler's also missing a corpse, isn't he ?

Interesting connection, given how many similarities that tea party game has with EP4.
There's a good question why wouldn't he even take a look at the parlor when he mentions he has searched the mansion rather thoroughly. But a) he seems to be far more concerned about verifying Kyrie's story, and b) his search of the mansion is more concerned with locating an ambushing culprit, that is, a person who is still alive. Finding every dead body wherever it might be is not on the list of his goals.

Having decided that Kanon's corpse must be in the well since all other corpses were located in the places Kyrie's story told they would be, he spends much of his remaining time trying to cut the bars on the well, so it's not too big a stretch to think that he never opened the parlor, or, for that matter, Kinzo's study -- which is a room he doesn't even have a key to.

I should say we're FAR from being done with the first four episodes.

EDIT: Also notice that Out of Kyrie's group, Kanon was the first to die. And according to Bern's story, Leon was the first of the cousins to be killed...
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Old 2010-08-21, 17:42   Link #473
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Should it be in red, then, or should we instead doubt everything in Ep7 and otherwise? That's the real question here, and I vote for the latter.
It's possible I'm just overly bitter. For a long time now I've claimed Bernkastel is "us" basically, and expected arc 7 to be an arc made of fan theories put together. I was prepared to dismisss all of it.

Then it came out, and I started to feel doubt. What's the point of making an arc that's nearly entirely a troll right next to the end? Suppose nearly everything in arc 7 is wrong, then once arc 8 comes out and tells the real story, what'll be the worth left of arc 7? Basically there has to be a purpose of arc 7 that remains true to the whole story. I guess, if that's the case and my supposition isn't wrong it's probably to show us the "equation that leads to disaster".

But there's much more worst to consider. Hoping that this is all nonsense until arc 8 comes out, realize it's actually the truth, and be in utter deception 3 times more then I am now.

Frankly I don't get Ryukishi.

I vote for the later myself, but I lost faith in him I think, and expect Umineko's truth to be along the lines of stackable rooms puzzles rather then sensical story. Honestly with the type of answers arc 7 gave out, I'm more satisfied with the fantasy explanation of the story right now.

I'd be really happy to be proven wrong.
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Old 2010-08-21, 17:42   Link #474
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Well, he may have checked the parlor and just didn't bring it up because nobody was in there. I was just speculating at random.
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Old 2010-08-21, 17:45   Link #475
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But to clear some things up, several things here are not that right, at least not as far as I remember, so please correct me back if I got something wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Guy hates his life, hates being the head of the Ushiromiya and hates his wedding.
Then he still has 3 child.
Having children and hating their marriage are not necessarily contradicting each other. He's also not exactly hating his situation, he is just terribly indifferent to it. I remember him saying in Episode 7 that the worst thing was that he didn't hate his wife or children, he just didn't care at all for them. He just did what he did because that was how his life was proceeding.

Quote:
He also hates every women.
He doesn't hate women. Where does it ever say that?!
He's just of a generation that still regarded men as superior to women, as wrong as this may be, he wasn't alone in his conception of marriage and women at all. He just grew to despise the concept of arranged marriage and arranged life...so in a way it also makes sense to put his children (who he doesn't love) through the same thing.

Quote:
The daughter he supposedly loves of the women he supposedly loved (while hating everyone else, especially women) he forces to live in seclusion and keeps her more ignorant then an average elementary school student.
For him they are the very same person, when his and Genji's words can be believed. They are both Beatrice (in a very metaphysical sense) and he tries to keep her all to himself.
This also means that he didn't "put her [...] through shit", from his perspective he protected his beloved Beatriiiiiice~ from the world. What happened to his other children was pretty much none of his business.

Quote:
He hardcore incest/rape Beato-2, however she somehow magicallly remains innocent of the world. Even after giving birth. She then dies after of innocence overdose.
It's not that impossible to believe that Beatrice#2 blocked out the incident of her father (whom she was forbidden to call father) had intercourse with her. She seemed pretty much mentally destroyed when Rosa found her and it could be that she just retreated into a child-like state to escape her reality (like many people in the story do).
We can't even know if it was an accident at all when she tripped and fell. Maybe she commited suicide on purpose...

Quote:
While he thouht it would be a good idea to keep Beato-2 secretly raised in Kuwadorian forever, he decided to make her own child be adopted by Krauss/Natsuhi. It doesn't work well and the child apparently dies. HE FINDS IT FUNNY.
I agree that it is strange that he wants them to raise the child, but this time his deranged mind wasn't able to draw the same conclusions, as Genji explained. In the case of Beato#2, her mother died when she was born, meaning Kinzo could imagine her soul being transferred directly. The mother of Beato#3, Beato#2, was pretty much alive some time after that, so for him it was a real child at first.
He himself couldn't raise a child without drawing suspicion, so he used that fact that Natsuhi had fertility problems (or maybe it was Krauss) and tried to force it unto her.
He never found it FUNNY at all when the child (apparently) died, he as distraught over the fact that he had to loose someone he loved another time and possibly went down the last few steps to insanity.

Quote:
He realizes somehow the child is still alive (after going through the same fate as her mother, but somehow miraculously surviving it) and sends it to an orphanage.
The maid dropped down a cliff, not the child (if it happened like that at all and wasn't only a decoy to keep the child from Kinzo). It is not impossible to belive that the body of the maid stopped the child from dying.
And Kinzo never knew that the child had survived until Genji brought Yasu to him, when s/he had solved the epitaph many years later. According to what Genji said, he made Nanjo forge the documents to create a child 2 years younger, who was send to Fukuin and then back to the island. So it was a secret between Kumasawa, him and Nanjo which they kept to keep the tragedy of Beato#2 from repeating itself.

Quote:
He eventually hires her to work under a false name and let her, whom he supposedly love, be abused by the rest of the family, including Natsuhi/Krauss who he supposedly hate.
He even makes her go through the troubles of doing two shifts at once by the sake of Kanon, cause Kinzo loves more men (not sexually... well as far as we know at least).
Kinzo knew nothing of Yasu's true identity until he met him like explained above and if we consider what we saw (which we should start, considering there's only 1(!!!) Episode left) he died after he had the chance to appologize to all his Beatrices in the form of Yasu.
Why Genji was okay with how they were treated I don't know, but Kumasawa shows how much she regrets it, having to stand by and not being able to do anything. But let's be honest, Shannon is not the only one being maltreated in that house.

Quote:
He makes her somehow his successor, HOWEVER, he also puts up the epitaph, to give the rest of the family, people he all hate and despise, a chance to become the successor.
He makes her/him his successor after s/he had solved the Epitaph, which was already put up for some month on open display. It was even Genji who had to force Shannon and Kanon (and therefore Yasu) to participate in solving the riddle.
Genji waited for her and showed her to Kinzo, who was surprised and glad he could make someone his successor he cared about. But after Kinzo's death, Yasu announces that he does not care for neither gold nor title, because he never was an Ushiromiya to begin with (and possible other horrible reasons, according to the flashbacks)...so he keeps the epitaph up and wants to see who will continue the title instead of him.

Quote:
Then he plans to bomb everyone on the island with a nuke after his own death.
The device was created by him in case he made a wrong decision. They said that it gave him his 'magic powers of chance'. So whenever he made an important monetary decision, he always had in mind that he was able to destroy everything, including his fortune, so he was never affraid to gamble. It's like knowing that you can make any move in a game and if you know it was the wrong one, you just quit.
Any Beatrice was never in danger of being hurt, because the bomb was devised in a way that Kuwadorian would stay unharmed. It would have only been the Ushiromiyas who would have died and the servants at that time and the current Beatrice (#1 or #2) would have survived.

Quote:
Several of his close friends is aware of most to all of that and they don't mind, and continue to respect him and consider him a truly inteligent person.
I don't know about that respect anymore, because Kumasawa, Genji and Nanjo openly defied his authority when they kept the survival of the child from him. They also said he was a genius, but he was also stark raving mad in his later years (not only then if you ask me). Genji seems to have a connection to him that goes deeper, Kumasawa cares too much for the Beatrices (Shannon said she was like a mother) and Nanjo is terribly greedy (don't know if it's all for his grandchild...I highly doubt it). So they are all more or less chained to Kinzo.

I don't think that it is all so far fetched...considering this is a mystery/detective story and we have to have people with a dark past. If we look back on this genre, Kinzo is a typical father figure of an important household...they all had terrible backgrounds like that, be it with Doyle, Christie, Dine or modern Japanese writers like Ayatsuji, Kyougoku or Orihara...
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Old 2010-08-21, 17:45   Link #476
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Trying not to drift off topic and disrupt this discussion so I'm going to throw this out there. The "Golden Nocturne" bgm is from this episode, right? If so, has anyone got a download link for that music in particular? I can't find any downloads no matter how hard I look. D:
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Old 2010-08-21, 18:11   Link #477
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Then it came out, and I started to feel doubt. What's the point of making an arc that's nearly entirely a troll right next to the end? Suppose nearly everything in arc 7 is wrong, then once arc 8 comes out and tells the real story, what'll be the worth left of arc 7? Basically there has to be a purpose of arc 7 that remains true to the whole story. I guess, if that's the case and my supposition isn't wrong it's probably to show us the "equation that leads to disaster".
I can tell you how I see it. Whether there's any truth in it is an open question, but for what it's worth.

Episode 7 is meant to be an object lesson about what it means to "have love" -- for the author, the characters, and the story. As such, it is the most important episode in the entire series, even though it contains little to no new information, and what it does contain is extremely misleading or an outright lie. It is specifically assembled from fan theories and written up in a typical Ryukishi style which makes it feel acceptable. It also selects those theories in such a fashion as to push the highest possible amount of emotional, ideological and spiritual buttons. There is, in fact, a chance that some of these theories were seeded by Ryukishi himself to make that object lesson, (see "OZ" earlier up the thread) though that's speculation, to be honest.
  • You consider incest abhorrent? Here, Kinzo does it, and almost becomes the sin collector.
  • You consider a maiden passively wishing to be saved when she is actually free to leave at any moment or seek a solution on her own an inappropriate ideal in this day and age? Here, have Shkanontrice. You want your love story to be warm and sweet, even if it's ending is sad? Here, have a story of obsession that cannot be in all honesty called sane.
  • You want at least one successful relationship? Here, have a few torpedoes for your ship. Actually, have a torpedo for every single one.
  • You want your culprit to be a calculating, rational individual, impressive through the virtue of great intellect and meticulous planning? Here, have Kyrie, heretofore portrayed as the most meticulous and calculating, go on an insane sadistic rampage for no apparent logical reason. You dislike melodrama? Have characters talking to corpses and practising maniacal laugher up the wazoo.
  • You want justice? Have Eva turn out to be the noble survivor corrupted by her own nobility into a monster.
  • You consider it a blasphemy to equate the magic of humans accepting other humans with the value of gold? Here, the episode has it too. Several times along the way.
  • You want a happy ending? Here, fuck you, This story won't have a happy ending!
  • And if that wasn't enough, have the character who's been positioned as representing you, Bernkastel, laugh in your face and trample the most classicaly heroic character presented so far.
Pardon the verbiage.

The episode is deliberately designed to attack everything that someone might hold dear, targeting as wide a range as possible. The narration even comments on how well it all fits, hoping that we'll take it as the sign that this is all it. If you don't rebel after all that, you don't deserve to have the solution, because you have not really been thinking.

Of course, the above is just my opinion. But if my opinion is wrong, Ryukishi is committing a knowingly evil act.
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Old 2010-08-21, 18:16   Link #478
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Why would it be evil, I wonder? Umineko was not supposed to be all sparkles n' bubbles.
Now, I understand why would anyone want to deny what happened in EP7, but well... I guess all I can say is "to each his own".
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Old 2010-08-21, 18:17   Link #479
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[*]You want at least one successful relationship? Here, have a few torpedoes for your ship. Actually, have a torpedo for every single one.
Well, that explains about 7-10 tons of the torpedos, at least.
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Old 2010-08-21, 18:20   Link #480
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Why would it be evil, I wonder? Umineko was not supposed to be all sparkles n' bubbles.
Now, I understand why would anyone want to deny what happened in EP7, but well... I guess all I can say is "to each his own".
A "knowingly evil act" would be committed not towards the characters (that's their job after all) but towards the readers who expected a story that would actually, you know, hold some ideals, and was presented initially as such.

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Well, that explains about 7-10 tons of the torpedos, at least.
"Nice boat."
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